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What is everyone's take on them? I have never seen them on the table top. Is it just because of the cost? ST: 4 AP: 3 Rapid Fire sounds pretty nice as does a 3+/4++ save. In addition a Terminator Sorcerer Lord seems pretty powerful at 2+/3++, their psychic powers seem pretty decent...

Is there something I am missing or is it just unit cost?

I am asking because I am looking at potentially adding them to my Chaos army, which until now has pretty much been exclusively Slaanesh dedicated (not always Noise Marines but at least marks)

It's because all they do is fire AP3 bolters.. If you play by the rules when determining the amount of terrain on the board then AP3 isn't horribly useful, most units that are scared can get a 5+ or a 4+ cover.

Sure they have a 4++ but that is MOSTLY useful in CC (since you can't get cover saves in CC).. however they are awful at CC

They also can't run, or overwatch or do anything outside of fire bolters. Might as well just run normal CSM as they can have stuff like meltaguns and lascannons.

Resilience is fine but if you want that.. then plague marines are better. Thousand Sons just don't *do* much of anything.

 Rivet wrote:
Is there something I am missing or is it just unit cost?

Isn't there a high actual cost as well?

For Eldar, Vaul's Wrath doesn't see as much play as it should because it's $25 bucks for one 30 point model.

 Kirasu wrote:
It's because all they do is fire AP3 bolters.. If you play by the rules when determining the amount of terrain on the board then AP3 isn't horribly useful, most units that are scared can get a 5+ or a 4+ cover.

Sure they have a 4++ but that is MOSTLY useful in CC (since you can't get cover saves in CC).. however they are awful at CC

They also can't run, or overwatch or do anything outside of fire bolters. Might as well just run normal CSM as they can have stuff like meltaguns and lascannons.

Resilience is fine but if you want that.. then plague marines are better. Thousand Sons just don't *do* much of anything.

Well with the AP 3, you are at least forcing cover saves. Why is the 4++ mostly useful in CC? There is a moderate amount of stuff that is ignoring cover lately that is also AP 3 (Tau come in at the top of that list) So it would seem that 4++ would protect against that type of stuff. Also, because they are fearless and thus cannot go to ground, they cannot improve their cover save so could just as easily place them out in the open and still have the same amount of protection as if being in ruins.

Not being able to run does not bother me too much as I do not do a lot of that anyways, the not being able to overwatch is something I had not thought about and that is indeed a hindrance.

While I listed counters above to some of your arguments, your last sentence really shores it up because I can simply take a Heldrake and be 1000 times more effective because it is ST 6 AP 3 and ignores those pesky cover saves. I could argue that it gets me more Psychers but I guess more Tzeetch magic is not all that worth it.

4+ armor is currently the most cost efficient armor...not the best.

 ductvader wrote:
4+ armor is currently the most cost efficient armor...not the best.

huh?

Thousand Sons are bad because they have 2 relatively rare abilities and pay out the nose for them, even in situations where those abilities are not relevant.

AP3 Inferno Bolts are the biggest reason to take them and at first glance, it's really nice. Marines pay a lot for that armour and so you pay a lot of points to ignore it. The problem is that some armies do not care what the AP is and you end up paying a premium for an ability you do not need. Orks, Guard, Dark Eldar and Daemons do not really care at all, to them you simply represent extra expensive Marines. Similarly while AP3 Bolters inflict 3x as many wounds against a Marine squad in the open, the delivery costs twice as much and so even against the optimal target, it's not that significant of a difference because you get half the shots. Against anything with a 2+, or worse than 5+, you are objectively worse due to the lack of numbers. Against a 4+ you generally break even. If the enemy is sat in cover saves, you are flat-out worse than just pumping double the number of AP5.

Similarly that 4+ Invul is nice when it matters, but the strength of Power Armour and Cover means that it is rare to make it even relevant. Against the vast majority of firepower, you have half the normal number of wounds with no resistance to light weaponry. Against the models that do care, you have twice the resilience at twice the cost, so you don't really gain anything from it. This is also ignoring the fact that you could simply find a nice piece of cover and get decent protection for free. It becomes relevant in close combat, but I1, Champion of Chaos and no Overwatch means that the squad is already dead in the water if it even reaches that stage of the game.

The unit is directed into a specific niche that is so pricey, you could nearly achieve the same results with larger numbers of non-specialists. It is specialised to the point that it cannot contribute anything outside its niche (Regular CSM can contribute Plasma Guns, Melta, Melee ability, Better Scoring etc.) and the niche is of dubious relevance at best, and completely ignored at worst. It comes with a silly-high unit cost and is polished with the most expensive, suicidally-inclined Sergeant in the game. To even use the unit requires either hamstringing your Sorcerer with a Mark, taking a Land-Raider expensive character, or running them without any Scoring abilities.

If you want AP3 firepower, just take a Heldrake.

 Rivet wrote:
In addition a Terminator Sorcerer Lord seems pretty powerful at 2+/3++, their psychic powers seem pretty decent...

Tzeench powers arent very good, especilly if you are putting them in a unit of AP3 bolters.

Paying for termy army, SoC, and MoT makes this guy massively expensive for a small return in surviability (and he still has just 2 wounds)

Mozzamanx wrote:


If you want AP3 firepower, just take a Heldrake.

Yeah, that is basically the conclusion that I have come to.

I have 2 squads of Thousand Sons. I pull them out once or twice a year for a game where I think they would be useful, and return them afterwards.

The main drawbacks are that they cost too much for what they can do, they are not as tough as Noise Marines, and the lack of heavy weapons options means they are not versatile. There is a specific role they should be used for, the trouble is I can't find it with what everything else costs.