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 kronk wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
What do marines have worth spending 55 points to re-roll?

What don't they have to re-roll? Devastators, TFCs, grav centurions, sternguard that don't take transports, even basic tactical squads aren't all that terrible. And that's just shooting. Remember, prescience also gives a re-roll in assault, which means that every assault unit that doesn't get slowed down by the psyker is going to get 55 points worth of benefit. Finally, that's assuming you take prescience as a default, you've got a pretty good chance of getting something just as good (or even better) with your random roll. It's not hard to see how things like no-cover plasma cannon devastators or full-BS overwatch sternguard can be nice to have.

55 points to reroll to-hits on my missile launcher or lascannon devastators....

YES PLEASE!

But Kronk, I thought you were a BT player, what happened to suffer not the witch to live?

Damn it!


Uh, they're for my small Crimson Fists list. Yeah... Sons of Dorn!

Luide wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Man this servo skull issue is the first thing in a while that's legit bumming me out as a bike player. Usually most broken things have a way to work around. But there is literally nothing stopping a player from lining the edge of my deployment zone so I can't even redeploy with scout in my own zone without even advancing.

Yes and no. He can stop you from re-deploying in certain segments up to 6" inside your deployment zone. But if your opponent is foolish enough to put those servo-skulls within 6" of your deployment zone, you can just deploy within 6" of the it and pop goes the servo-skull.

Right. Which is why you would deploy the servo-skulls just a little more than 6" away from the line of the deployment zone. A line of three servo skulls is 6 feet long, reaches 6" into the deployment zone at the deepest end and 4.85" into the zone at the shallow ends (that is, the points equidistant to two adjacent skulls).

 kronk wrote:
Damn it!


Uh, they're for my small Crimson Fists list. Yeah... Sons of Dorn!

Why not make them imperial fists for twin linked tank hunting lascannons/ML. ;p

Imp Fists or Thousand Sons will be my 30k army. Haven't decided... Still working on my 2000 point Chaos list anyway.

Chancetragedy wrote:

Why not make them imperial fists for twin linked tank hunting lascannons/ML. ;p

Erm... Crimson Fists are same as Imperial Fists rules-wise.

 Crimson wrote:

Chancetragedy wrote:

Why not make them imperial fists for twin linked tank hunting lascannons/ML. ;p

Erm... Crimson Fists are same as Imperial Fists rules-wise.

There is that, too...

I've spent the majority of the day reviewing this codex, and there are some nuggest that I've gleamed. I've gleamed more, but I have to scram and will leave it with this for now...

Chimera Psybolts
You can give psybolt ammo to a chimera. You can replace the turrent weapon with a HB, giving two STR 6 heavy bolters for 60 points.

The GEQ DPP of this is 42. In comparison, a wave serpent is 41. In comparison a bike squad with 2 grav guns is 23. Hurricane Bolter / Grav Amp Cents are 48. Point or point they rip up GEQ.

The MEQ DPP is 14. A wave serpents is 20. 10 Plague marines with 2 plasma guns and a rhino is also a 14.

Overall, its a cheap anti-GEQ tool you can add. AV12 is also more durable than AV11.


Servo Skulls
Combo well with orbital bombardment. This is because your halving the distance your going to scatter.
They can also combo well with thunderfire cannons. A BS4 thunderfire will still be hitting 7/9 of the time when your rolling 1 dice for scatter!
This is in addition to the normal tricks they bring.

They are easy to counter with movement, but for 3 points a pop you can spread quite a few out. It can make a nasty surprise on backfield units.


Priests + DCAs/Crusaders
Everyone loves priests. What's not to love? They can greatly magnify the damage capacity of DCAs and/or crusaders.

Crusaders you ask? Yes. Rerolling to-wound means that they are wounding T4 55% of the time. Even with only 1 attack (2 on the charge) they can deliver a lot of hits. They also absorb hits 8/9 of the time -- making it very hard to kill them.

These are, of course, provided the priest passes his/her LD test. The question everyone is asking is "can you use a joined IC for this test" If you can, then it gets really sick really fast.

Of course, if you took SoB, you always have Celestine to help make that happen.


Cheap Heavy Weapons
Inquistors not only can be prescience caddies, they can also bring cheap heavy weapons to the squad. An incinerator inquisitor costs 40 points -- which is better than adding a 3 wound heavy flamer model to the squad.

A psycannon will cost you 80 points (pre-presciecne). This is not bad at all given that it also comes with a 2+ armor save 3 wound tank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chancetragedy wrote:
Man this servo skull issue is the first thing in a while that's legit bumming me out as a bike player.

Just skip Khan and take a beatstick Chapter Master instead. For losing that scout move, you gained options opened via C:I, which improve the bike army more than it weakened it.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Cheap HB Spam
For 145 points you can bring 12 servitors and 1 inquistor. That's 36 heavy bolter shots per turn. For 25 more points you can give them prescience.

???

As a GK player I know this doesn't work in the GK dex. And since the Inquisition Codex is almost entirely a cut and paste job according to everyone, are you sure this is correct? I thought the limit for special weapons on servitors is 3 in a squad.

labmouse: When calculating the DPP of those servitors, are you remembering that they suffer from mindlock unless accompanied by an Inquisitor? If you are including an inquisitor, are you including the cost of that inquisitor in the calculation? And do remember that you can only buy 3 servitors per squad.

Yah I already have a CM in the list lab. I've been saying for a little bit now I was debating losing khan anyways as out of 15 games so far scout has only made a game breaking bonus like 3 times. But this may push me over the edge of running my biker Death Star list with bear lord, CM, rune priest, and maybe beat stick captain or something instead of the balanced flexible list I've been running. Either way it'll all work out I'm sure. Also we gotta get a game in some time even if you live like 2.5 hours away ;p. I Want to catch up since nova.

Corollax wrote:
labmouse: When calculating the DPP of those servitors, are you remembering that they suffer from mindlock unless accompanied by an Inquisitor? If you are including an inquisitor, are you including the cost of that inquisitor in the calculation? And do remember that you can only buy 3 servitors per squad.

Only 3 servitors with special weapons I thought, but you could have more without them. Or am I getting that rule mixed up with the acolytes?

Only 3 with servitor weapons access (heavy weapons), upto a full unit with servo arms.

Super Newb wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Cheap HB Spam
For 145 points you can bring 12 servitors and 1 inquistor. That's 36 heavy bolter shots per turn. For 25 more points you can give them prescience.

???

As a GK player I know this doesn't work in the GK dex. And since the Inquisition Codex is almost entirely a cut and paste job according to everyone, are you sure this is correct? I thought the limit for special weapons on servitors is 3 in a squad.

Pah.. You can take more, but only 3 can bring heavy bolters.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Cheap HB Spam
For 145 points you can bring 12 servitors and 1 inquistor. That's 36 heavy bolter shots per turn. For 25 more points you can give them prescience.

???

As a GK player I know this doesn't work in the GK dex. And since the Inquisition Codex is almost entirely a cut and paste job according to everyone, are you sure this is correct? I thought the limit for special weapons on servitors is 3 in a squad.

Pah.. You can take more, but only 3 can bring heavy bolters.

I've been there... I was browsing the GK codex a few months ago and salivated at the idea of taking 12 HBs with a prescience Inquisitor for less than 200 points total. I didn't understand why no one else was doing this. And then I figured it out... Oh, well.

Here's a question. In the current "meta" are 3 Heavy Bolters a better option than 3 Multi Meltas? They cost the same (unlike the Plasma Cannon Servitor, which is 20 points per model instead of 10).

For killing IG troops and orks? Yes.

For killing land raiders? No.

For killing stuff in-between? It depends on the stuff and situation.

I hope that helps!

Nope, not really! Lol.

Super Newb wrote:
Here's a question. In the current "meta" are 3 Heavy Bolters a better option than 3 Multi Meltas? They cost the same (unlike the Plasma Cannon Servitor, which is 20 points per model instead of 10).

It depends on the roles you want your henchmen unit to fulfill. Multi-meltas are usually more expensive than heavy bolters on most units, so from pure points standings I think the MM is "better." The correct choice depends on what you want your unit to be doing.

Don't forget servo skulls. Sweet sweet servo skulls.

I wonder if i can hang a Inquisitor on a stick in front of my Tervigon like a carrot and make it run faster ?

All the crazy shenanigans this list could add to improve my IG gunline seems rather interesting.

I dont have access to the codex yet but I assume the Inquisitor can only take 3 servo skulls correct? Also if I took 2 inquisitors would both be able to take servo skulls or are they limited to one model?

Also for an IG gunline I really only need to take the 2 inquisitors and hide them in blobs, after that I dont really need to take any henchmen correct?

Also ive heard about some grenades the inquisitors can take for assault, what exactly do they do and would they help my IG as they are battle brothers?

Thanks for the help!

Two non-named / non-specialcharacter inquisitors can take 3 servo skulls each for 6 total. Coteaz and Karawhatshisname don't get servo skulls.

The inquisition codex is strange in that their detachment (which doesn't count as your normal ally slot) can be a single HQ with no troops. It's 1-2 HQs, 0-3 Elites. So yeah, you can get 2 inquisitors and don't have to take anything else.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Divination inquisitors are incredibly cheap. For ~50 points you can get a basic inquisitor with ML 1 divination, and it's not hard to find units where the increase in firepower from prescience is enough to justify that cost.

Giving twin-linked to a BS4 weapon makes it 33.3% more effective at delivering damage.

Therefore, your break even point is on a 150 point unit. If your buffing a unit that costs less, your losing efficiency. If your buffing a unit that costs more, then your increasing efficiency.

I am hard pressed to think of why armies would not want to take advantage of that 50 point inquisitor. Most of the units in my army are above that threshold.

Dear Lab, how did you calculate the break even point?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
1) Divination inquisitors are incredibly cheap. For ~50 points you can get a basic inquisitor with ML 1 divination, and it's not hard to find units where the increase in firepower from prescience is enough to justify that cost.

Giving twin-linked to a BS4 weapon makes it 33.3% more effective at delivering damage.

Therefore, your break even point is on a 150 point unit. If your buffing a unit that costs less, your losing efficiency. If your buffing a unit that costs more, then your increasing efficiency.

I am hard pressed to think of why armies would not want to take advantage of that 50 point inquisitor. Most of the units in my army are above that threshold.

Dear Lab, how did you calculate the break even point?

The Inquisitor improves shooting by 33%, so in order for him to be worth it, he has to cost 33% or less than the cost of the unit. Since the calculation assumes the divination inquisitor is 50 points, the break-even point (i.e. spending 50
points on Inquisitor == spending 50 points on more dudes in the squad) is 150 points. Of course, this line of thinking doesn't consider durability or the chance of failing the psychic power for whatever reason, so it's stupid math. More dudes is practically always better; if you've maxed the squad out and want to push it further, by all means add an Inquisitor buff-bot.

yeah exactly, 55pts to make 10 guards men (50 pts) reroll hits isnt worth it when you can buy 10 more for cheaper....

but 55 pts to make 50 guardsmen reroll (250pts) is worth it

finding the fine line between "worth it" and not, depends on the # of shots the unit puts out as well as pts,

put this way, I could ALWAY's take this in GK, but I still dont, as there is really only one squad in my army that gets the best benifit from precience, and 55 pts of dudes benifits me more then a 2nd div roll

The 60 Point HB Chimera is clever.

 Omegus wrote:
Of course, this line of thinking doesn't consider durability or the chance of failing the psychic power for whatever reason, so it's stupid math.

Incorrect. Its important to know where your break even points are. You can consider those extra elements and move your bar over -- say on a 200 point unit for BS 4. To complicate matters, you also have to consider the advantages of a 3 wound IC in a squad. Do you want to buy him/her terminator armor to have some tanking capacity? Do you want to grab a heavy weapon to add to the squad (psycannon or incinerator) As you can see, its not an easy question.
However, you need to have a base line to start your own judgement. What is correct for you (boys over toys) may not be correct for everyone. There is more than one way to do it.

 easysauce wrote:
yeah exactly, 55pts to make 10 guards men (50 pts) reroll hits isnt worth it when you can buy 10 more for cheaper....

but 55 pts to make 50 guardsmen reroll (250pts) is worth it

Ding! easysauce understands the concept. You want to use force multipliers when your past the break even point and in the black. That's how you can get more out of your units.

 pretre wrote:
The 60 Point HB Chimera is clever.

When it comes to average firepower output, its only going to be slightly above the TL HB razorback. That's because the TL HB razorback is hitting 8/9 of the time, where the chimera is hitting 50% of the time.
It does, however, have an AV12 front and troops can fire from within. It's also a good spot to stick an extra prescience if you have an extra one to throw. Its not a great return on investment, but its there.

 pretre wrote:
The 60 Point HB Chimera is clever.

I agree, I like this a lot for shooty squads. Say an inquisitor with orbital barrage, three plasma cannon servitors, and 6 psykers.

The Valkyrie as a dedicated transport also makes me want to try an aerial assault force.

 Omegus wrote:

 pretre wrote:
The 60 Point HB Chimera is clever.

I agree, I like this a lot for shooty squads. Say an inquisitor with orbital barrage, three plasma cannon servitors, and 6 psykers.

The Valkyrie as a dedicated transport also makes me want to try an aerial assault force.

Note that orbital strike relay is different than the SM orbital barrage and serve skulls don't reduce it's scatter.