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Which is better?

Again. how do you define "better" 1v1 combat? better strategiest?

I would say Azreal would win in a fight. However its quite close in terms of who is better strategy wise.

I believe its quite the opposite. Azreal is a better strategist but helebrecht is probably a much better fighter.

No brainer. Helbrecht follows in the footsteps of Sigismund, who was considered to be the best swordsman in the Imperium. He wields the reforged sword of Rogal Dorn. Only fanboys who havent done their fluff homework would vote otherwise but alas, it comes with the territory. The poll will reflect this blind ignorance.

On the tabletop however, the High Marshall is garbage.

If helbrecht had the AP2 +2 Str, +1 Init Sword he should have, it would be him. But Azreal can give a unit 4++... That wins.

Edit: with the change you made, helbrecht

When I say better I mean in terms of fighting ability and strategic skill. With respect to strategy, I'd have thought it would be quite close. On the one hand you have Azrael, who's managing the hunt for the Fallen and been keeping it secret all this time. On the other there's Helbrecht, who's in charge of a chapter of 5000-8000, who's coordinating these troops in campaigns across the galaxy and is responsible for conquering the Ghoul Stars, commanding the defence of Armageddon during the 3rd war and being known as a master of naval combat.

Helbrecht, the guy basically heads a legion and gets away with it. Add in the fact that he's the heir of Sigismund, the greatest warrior of the Great Crusade (arguably). Plus there's the fact that he must have a grasp on logistics that would make Calgar nod in approval, to manage all these separate Crusade fleets, keep track of where each one is, keep in contact ect. He must be pretty damn smart.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
No brainer. Helbrecht follows in the footsteps of Sigismund, who was considered to be the best swordsman in the Imperium. He wields the reforged sword of Rogal Dorn. Only fanboys who havent done their fluff homework would vote otherwise but alas, it comes with the territory. The poll will reflect this blind ignorance.

On the tabletop however, the High Marshall is garbage.

You mean like yourself right?
So being of the line if the greatest swordsman primarch and having an ancestor just as skilled as sigismund
One word
Corswain
Please don't cause others of fanboyism or not doing there "fluff. Homework" when you display both these traits.

On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5, cc wise we dont have enough info on azrael to make a non biased judgement.

 Formosa wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
No brainer. Helbrecht follows in the footsteps of Sigismund, who was considered to be the best swordsman in the Imperium. He wields the reforged sword of Rogal Dorn. Only fanboys who havent done their fluff homework would vote otherwise but alas, it comes with the territory. The poll will reflect this blind ignorance.

On the tabletop however, the High Marshall is garbage.

You mean like yourself right?
So being of the line if the greatest swordsman primarch and having an ancestor just as skilled as sigismund
One word
Corswain
Please don't cause others of fanboyism or not doing there "fluff. Homework" when you display both these traits.

On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5, cc wise we dont have enough info on azrael to make a non biased judgement.

well, not counting primarchs (who I feel sanguinius was the best swordsman/fighter in that cat.) sigismund WAS the best of the best true. (although some argue differently as you stated.) That aside I DO believe helbrecht would take azzys money fluff wise, TT wise it seems azreal has a slightly better chance though. (though AAC helps here) strategic wise, azreal hands down man.

 raiden wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
No brainer. Helbrecht follows in the footsteps of Sigismund, who was considered to be the best swordsman in the Imperium. He wields the reforged sword of Rogal Dorn. Only fanboys who havent done their fluff homework would vote otherwise but alas, it comes with the territory. The poll will reflect this blind ignorance.

On the tabletop however, the High Marshall is garbage.

You mean like yourself right?
So being of the line if the greatest swordsman primarch and having an ancestor just as skilled as sigismund
One word
Corswain
Please don't cause others of fanboyism or not doing there "fluff. Homework" when you display both these traits.

On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5, cc wise we dont have enough info on azrael to make a non biased judgement.

well, not counting primarchs (who I feel sanguinius was the best swordsman/fighter in that cat.) sigismund WAS the best of the best true. (although some argue differently as you stated.) That aside I DO believe helbrecht would take azzys money fluff wise, TT wise it seems azreal has a slightly better chance though. (though AAC helps here) strategic wise, azreal hands down man.

okey dokey

categorically stated the best fighters of the HH
Corswain of the dark angels
Jago Sevatar of the night lords
Sigismund of the imperial fists
Abbadon of the sons of horus
Kharn of the world eaters

Sevetar wins this overall as he is stated as having beaten Sigismund in a duel, he cheated, but still won

As to Lion being the best swordsman, its been stated several times, I never stated that he was the most powerful, for example lion is leaps and bounds better at CC than the night haunter, but he has still lost twice now to him.

 d3m01iti0n wrote:
No brainer. Helbrecht follows in the footsteps of Sigismund, who was considered to be the best swordsman in the Imperium. He wields the reforged sword of Rogal Dorn. Only fanboys who havent done their fluff homework would vote otherwise but alas, it comes with the territory. The poll will reflect this blind ignorance.

I didn't vote because I find these kinds of polls rather ridiculous, but at what point is supreme skill with a sword integral to the job of Chapter Master?

 Formosa wrote:

Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5.

^This.

The job of a Chapter Master is not to engage in close combat, but to guide the Chapter in war. In this job Azrael knows no rival.

Formosa wrote:On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5

All Space Marines were Strategy Rating 5.

Calgar was a 6.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Formosa wrote:On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5

All Space Marines were Strategy Rating 5.

Calgar was a 6.

then azrael was 7, no one had a higher rating, im also sure calgar was 5 but aint got my books at my house

Wasn't Helbrecht an amazing fleet commander as well?

Lucarikx

I think Helbrecht has a slight edge in terms of personal close combat ability simply due to some of his feats as a Templar (with some low points vs Imotehk but to be fair it was mainly because as a Necron he was able to regenerate from his many wounds) alongside his fanatical zealotry vs. Azrael's more level-headed tactically inclined mentality that is balanced with his own potent close combat capabilities. It really depends on who gets the drop on the other in which case I would generally go towards Azrael as the winner or if its in a personal duel I would give it to Helbrecht.

 Formosa wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Formosa wrote:On topic.
Azrael is the best strategist in 40k, this to my knowledge has not been retconned, back in the day of strat ratings he was the only one with strat rating 5

All Space Marines were Strategy Rating 5.

Calgar was a 6.

then azrael was 7, no one had a higher rating, im also sure calgar was 5 but aint got my books at my house

Azrael may well have also been 6, but so was Calgar, that much is certain.

its funny that if calgar is the same lvl as azreal, it makes Dante better seeing as Calgar let Dante take overall command during that one war/battle/crusade that for the love of me I cannot remember

 raiden wrote:
its funny that if calgar is the same lvl as azreal, it makes Dante better seeing as Calgar let Dante take overall command during that one war/battle/crusade that for the love of me I cannot remember

ypur thinking or Armageddon, azrael and calgar were not there

 Formosa wrote:

 raiden wrote:
its funny that if calgar is the same lvl as azreal, it makes Dante better seeing as Calgar let Dante take overall command during that one war/battle/crusade that for the love of me I cannot remember

ypur thinking or Armageddon, azrael and calgar were not there

no there was one where big papa smurf handing overall control too Dante, Azzy was not there IIRC. but papa smurf was. though I DID read this a while back.

 raiden wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 raiden wrote:
its funny that if calgar is the same lvl as azreal, it makes Dante better seeing as Calgar let Dante take overall command during that one war/battle/crusade that for the love of me I cannot remember

ypur thinking or Armageddon, azrael and calgar were not there

no there was one where big papa smurf handing overall control too Dante, Azzy was not there IIRC. but papa smurf was. though I DID read this a while back.

Second battle for Armageddon....

'Such is Commander Dante's reputation that Tu'shan of the Salamanders and Marneus Calgar cede overall command to him'

Taken from Codex: Blood Angels, 5th edition.

Stay on topic guys.

It is hard to say, because Azrael has so little fluff written on him. I voted Helbrecht due to this limitation on Azrael.