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Let's think about the Tyranids, just for a few seconds. First, let's look at how large their forces actually are.




Compare the size of their fleet to the size of the galaxy. Even if the Hive Fleets are no doubt thinner vertically and more spread than the galaxy is, the sheer mass of the fleets is completely ridiculous and would make their warrior organisms enough to outnumber any other army in the galaxy by billions to one. But, artistic license and all. We assume that the above picture does not show the hive fleets at their actual size, instead only marking their locations. That is fine. Then we go to the second largest argument.

Humans make poor warriors, really. Our bodies are fragile and we are not really that dangerous in unarmed combat compared to many wild animals of roughly our size. Now, the humans of 40K are not unarmed. They have guns, tanks, and armour. But armour is of limited use; while it might protect you from a stab, the force of a blow can still crush your bones, armour or not. Not to mention that typical Guardsman armour only covers a minority of the body. Cloth, even if it is tough cloth, will not stop a really sharp blade. Humanity are also rather lacking in reproduction. Even if we assume that a Hive World reproduces to the very maximum, (Something that is unrealistic to say the least, for several reasons.) the hive world's population would only grow by roughly 50% of its adult population every 9 months. It also takes years for humans to grow up, and they require training in order to become effective soldiers, tank drivers etc. Some really immoral gits like DKoK use various unsavoury means to get around the population growth threshold (At least that's what I have been told), but they cannot get around the training required, for example. In addition, humans have a strong instinct of of self-preservation. We simply really do not want to die. For some this is a non-issue (Again, DKoK) and others may have Commissars, but it remains a weakness. Plus, seeing some of the really scary things around in 40K might make your legs run away with you almost of their own, pistol-Commissar or not. Or drive you insane.


Tyranids, on the other hand, have nothing of these weaknesses. The warrior organisms of the hive fleets are genetically engineered to the last chromosome (If they even have chromosomes!) to become perfect soldiers, as effective as it is possible to become. They have nothing that limits them, they can create whatever creature they want that is ideal for the battle at hand. Tyranids are born ready for battle and spawn in mere minutes. Tyranids know no fear. Tyranids have no tanks, but they do not need tanks. In a situation that would warrant a tank, they can just smack down a Carnifex. Sure, severing the synapse link might limit their tactic usage, but they can just spawn minion creatures that instinctively assault when not controlled, making the actual disadvantage minimal. How can you possibly defeat an enemy that is both far more numerous and so much more perfect for war than you are?

Of course, this is just a comparison to Guardsmen. The factions vary, but the point stands. How could anyone hope to match the numbers/effectivity/prowess of the Tyranids and come out on top?

They couldn't.

But the concept is great, and I am looking forward to see how it grows.

Well I believe several factors should be factored into this situation.

First, I think you are neglecting several factors when it comes to just Imperial Guardsmen and the Imperium in general. They truly believe in the Emperor and his Divine Light, and to run from battle is to be denied that light. Coupled with the fact you have someone behind you that would not hesitate to shoot you the moment you put down that Las-Gun, you have a pretty solid reason to keep fighting, fear or not.

We also have intuition. Each person can think for himself, while this may be looked down upon by the Imperium it may be its greatest strength. Each person can look on a situation differently, and see different solutions. Different tactics, different strategies. We can make plans on the fly, and the Tyranids just can't do that. If you cut them from Synapse, they just turn into beast and can easily be tricked and slaughtered. Cut of some soldiers from the Imperium, they can still wreck.

And finally, humans can be inspired. They can fight for something they feel is right, and while this might also cause fear it can cause some people to do great things. Sorta going back to my first post. Tyranids are incapable of doing this. They might be empowered by the Hive MInd, but a single human could be empowered by the love of the Emperor and that can cause him to do incredible things.

Given the number of Tyranids available, there is no physical way to defeat them short of:

1. Blow up all ships
2. Exterminatus/turn into Daemon planet
3. Biovirus

The Ultramarines, for example, have no way beyond Plot armor to defeat a major Tyranid excursion. Even with Guard, there are what, several Billion Nids on planet right? Even if it was ONLY gants, they would still destroy the Marines so dang fast. But put giant bugs in there and the chapter is swept aside... Honestly a major Hive Fleet is putting down more Carnifex than a Chapter is Marines... But, the major hive fleets are really only being stopped by Exterminatus or in Space, and the occasional biovirus. Everything else just feels like Plot Armor > Chitin.

Which is why really Tyranids (and/or Necrons depending on their numbers) are one of the greatest threats to humanity in 40K.

I agree their true scale is often hard to grasp and isn't conveyed very well in novels or stories because those are inevitably structured around the protagonists saving the day in a big "boss fight" that then results in all the lesser Tyranids suddenly becoming insignificant. So often this takes the form of some plot device (that of course is only usable in that one instance) that allows them to quickly wrap up the story.

Aside from the the above mentioned weaknesses of humanity, humans are also dependent upon technology to be effective fighters. That means they need to maintain technological infrastructure in order to sustain a conflict against Tyranids. Mines need to produce ore, which needs to be refined, and turned into manufactured vehicles and weapons. Humans also take years to mature to a level where they could be a combatant effectively. An unarmed human, even if from a savage world, simply isn't a very big threat, and even if they were some mighty unarmed brawler or martial artist, they would still fall to sheer numbers. That is how the Tyranids deal with the fauna of the worlds they assault. Most things are killed by the individual bio-engineered Tyranid organisms which are bred purely for combat, whereas normal organisms have to worry about sustaining themselves and reproducing normally. Any indigenous fauna that can withstand the assaults of lesser Tyranids is either swarmed under by numbers or then even bigger Tyranids are brought to bear. In normal ecosystems, such indigenous dangerous animals are usually top predators, loners, or at best maybe relatively small herds (like elephants), so numbers alone would get them in the end.

What GW most fails to convey however is the fact the Tyranids are converting and utilizing the native ecosystem as they invade. The biomass is stripped, consumed, and converted to new Tyranids even while the attack is ongoing, and they recycle their dead. A field of dead Tyranids or a patch of wilderness does not have the same usefulness to the Imperium, and certainly cannot be so easily utilized without bringing in technological equipment. The amount of energy contained within the biomass of an ecosystem is enormous so the Tyranids can beat a world's defenders in attrition because the Tyranids can recycle and regenerate their losses far more quickly than the humans can. The microscopic Tyranid consumption ecosystem also acts as a form of biological warfare weakening enemies before the main ground attack swarms hit.

That is why actually almost all the major victories against the Tyranids in the background have involved a space component that ultimately results in the destruction of the Norn Queen and the major hive ships. Fighting the Tyranids purely on the ground would realistically be a losing proposition since they are utilizing the energy of the entire planetary ecosystem including all those barren areas that are not usable by humans. As industrial infrastructure fails or stockpiled technological war material runs out, the combat ability of humans drops off. The Tyranids are a threat where the Imperium doesn't have the advantage it normally enjoys of outnumbering the enemy.

The true horror of the Tyranid invasion is the realization that the entire world is essentially being consumed or turned against you, and the realization that no matter how accurate, how strong, or how determined you are, at some point you will run out of shots for your gun, your arm will tire, and you will need food and rest. The individual Tyranids, driven to assault and if need be die, have no such self preservation stopping them from non-stop attacking or hunting. And perhaps worst of all, the Tyranids don't even really hate you. The other races and factions of 40K might disagree with human ideology, hold humans in contempt, want to tear down human society but ultimately they still care about humans even if just as an enemy or plaything to torment . To the Tyranids, you are like the bacteria on a hamburger. They don't hate you because you are utterly insignificant and I think it is that utter insignificance that is part of why Tyranids are scary.

DjPyro3 wrote:
Well I believe several factors should be factored into this situation.

First, I think you are neglecting several factors when it comes to just Imperial Guardsmen and the Imperium in general. They truly believe in the Emperor and his Divine Light, and to run from battle is to be denied that light. Coupled with the fact you have someone behind you that would not hesitate to shoot you the moment you put down that Las-Gun, you have a pretty solid reason to keep fighting, fear or not.

We also have intuition. Each person can think for himself, while this may be looked down upon by the Imperium it may be its greatest strength. Each person can look on a situation differently, and see different solutions. Different tactics, different strategies. We can make plans on the fly, and the Tyranids just can't do that. If you cut them from Synapse, they just turn into beast and can easily be tricked and slaughtered. Cut of some soldiers from the Imperium, they can still wreck.

And finally, humans can be inspired. They can fight for something they feel is right, and while this might also cause fear it can cause some people to do great things. Sorta going back to my first post. Tyranids are incapable of doing this. They might be empowered by the Hive MInd, but a single human could be empowered by the love of the Emperor and that can cause him to do incredible things.

Fanaticism is powerful, but we still have instincts and reflexes. You may know that fighting on regardless of odds is what you want, but you might still run because of shock, panic, etc.

The Guard is not trained for intuition. They are trained to roly 100% on their orders, exclusively. They share this weakness with the Tyranids.

Inspiration is highly situational and won't have an effect if we look at this on a galactic scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

Spoiler:

Which is why really Tyranids (and/or Necrons depending on their numbers) are one of the greatest threats to humanity in 40K.

I agree their true scale is often hard to grasp and isn't conveyed very well in novels or stories because those are inevitably structured around the protagonists saving the day in a big "boss fight" that then results in all the lesser Tyranids suddenly becoming insignificant. So often this takes the form of some plot device (that of course is only usable in that one instance) that allows them to quickly wrap up the story.

Aside from the the above mentioned weaknesses of humanity, humans are also dependent upon technology to be effective fighters. That means they need to maintain technological infrastructure in order to sustain a conflict against Tyranids. Mines need to produce ore, which needs to be refined, and turned into manufactured vehicles and weapons. Humans also take years to mature to a level where they could be a combatant effectively. An unarmed human, even if from a savage world, simply isn't a very big threat, and even if they were some mighty unarmed brawler or martial artist, they would still fall to sheer numbers. That is how the Tyranids deal with the fauna of the worlds they assault. Most things are killed by the individual bio-engineered Tyranid organisms which are bred purely for combat, whereas normal organisms have to worry about sustaining themselves and reproducing normally. Any indigenous fauna that can withstand the assaults of lesser Tyranids is either swarmed under by numbers or then even bigger Tyranids are brought to bear. In normal ecosystems, such indigenous dangerous animals are usually top predators, loners, or at best maybe relatively small herds (like elephants), so numbers alone would get them in the end.

What GW most fails to convey however is the fact the Tyranids are converting and utilizing the native ecosystem as they invade. The biomass is stripped, consumed, and converted to new Tyranids even while the attack is ongoing, and they recycle their dead. A field of dead Tyranids or a patch of wilderness does not have the same usefulness to the Imperium, and certainly cannot be so easily utilized without bringing in technological equipment. The amount of energy contained within the biomass of an ecosystem is enormous so the Tyranids can beat a world's defenders in attrition because the Tyranids can recycle and regenerate their losses far more quickly than the humans can. The microscopic Tyranid consumption ecosystem also acts as a form of biological warfare weakening enemies before the main ground attack swarms hit.

That is why actually almost all the major victories against the Tyranids in the background have involved a space component that ultimately results in the destruction of the Norn Queen and the major hive ships. Fighting the Tyranids purely on the ground would realistically be a losing proposition since they are utilizing the energy of the entire planetary ecosystem including all those barren areas that are not usable by humans. As industrial infrastructure fails or stockpiled technological war material runs out, the combat ability of humans drops off. The Tyranids are a threat where the Imperium doesn't have the advantage it normally enjoys of outnumbering the enemy.

The true horror of the Tyranid invasion is the realization that the entire world is essentially being consumed or turned against you, and the realization that no matter how accurate, how strong, or how determined you are, at some point you will run out of shots for your gun, your arm will tire, and you will need food and rest. The individual Tyranids, driven to assault and if need be die, have no such self preservation stopping them from non-stop attacking or hunting. And perhaps worst of all, the Tyranids don't even really hate you. The other races and factions of 40K might disagree with human ideology, hold humans in contempt, want to tear down human society but ultimately they still care about humans even if just as an enemy or plaything to torment . To the Tyranids, you are like the bacteria on a hamburger. They don't hate you because you are utterly insignificant and I think it is that utter insignificance that is part of why Tyranids are scary.

Exactly!

DjPyro3 wrote:
Well I believe several factors should be factored into this situation.

First, I think you are neglecting several factors when it comes to just Imperial Guardsmen and the Imperium in general. They truly believe in the Emperor and his Divine Light, and to run from battle is to be denied that light. Coupled with the fact you have someone behind you that would not hesitate to shoot you the moment you put down that Las-Gun, you have a pretty solid reason to keep fighting, fear or not.

We also have intuition. Each person can think for himself, while this may be looked down upon by the Imperium it may be its greatest strength. Each person can look on a situation differently, and see different solutions. Different tactics, different strategies. We can make plans on the fly, and the Tyranids just can't do that. If you cut them from Synapse, they just turn into beast and can easily be tricked and slaughtered. Cut of some soldiers from the Imperium, they can still wreck.

And finally, humans can be inspired. They can fight for something they feel is right, and while this might also cause fear it can cause some people to do great things. Sorta going back to my first post. Tyranids are incapable of doing this. They might be empowered by the Hive MInd, but a single human could be empowered by the love of the Emperor and that can cause him to do incredible things.

Humans are not robots. Morale is not infallible and people break. Commissars are not an infallible solution just as they were not so historically. If the threat from the enemy is still perceived as greater than the threat from behind, then that commissar is going to be ignored or be killed. In fact, the 3rd edition IG Codex had that in the rules if the Commissar's attempt failed.

Hardened soldiers from worlds like Cadia still break (and are shown doing so in the Iyanden supplement). Even the Death Korps of Krieg breaks. In the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books, there is just such an example of a regiment of DKoK breaking and retreating in the face of enemy fire. They may be fatalistic but even so at some level there will be a desire for self preservation (or at least wanting a worthy death).

Iracundus wrote:

Even the Death Korps of Krieg breaks. In the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books, there is just such an example of a regiment of DKoK breaking and retreating in the face of enemy fire. They may be fatalistic but even so at some level there will be a desire for self preservation (or at least wanting a worthy death).

Holy crap. Can you elaborate a bit more on that particular instance? I don't have that IA, but I'd love to hear more about that rare occurrence.

That image posted in the OP is actually the image that inspired me to start a Tyranid army. The threat is just . . . singular. The galaxy either needs to unite to defend, or succumb. . . or, Necrons.

I know that people do break, regardless of what the Imperium puts behind them. I'm just saying that there are a few possible reasons why Tyranids are not racing through the galaxy, gobbling everyone down. Stuff like Cheknov destroying an entire Vanguard force of Tyranids by the use of fear and commissars.

Or the 9th Vostryan Legion destroying an entire tendril by themselves. Feats like these do slow down the Nids, and I'm sure many more of the events go on in the galaxy, unsung heroes dying to slow the advance of the bugs. But regardless, in the end I do share the belief that the Nids will probably win out unless the Imperium either pulls itself together, or joins in some alliance with the races. Neither of which will probably happen...

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Even the Death Korps of Krieg breaks. In the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books, there is just such an example of a regiment of DKoK breaking and retreating in the face of enemy fire. They may be fatalistic but even so at some level there will be a desire for self preservation (or at least wanting a worthy death).

Holy crap. Can you elaborate a bit more on that particular instance? I don't have that IA, but I'd love to hear more about that rare occurrence.

The first attack wave was already falling back in the face of intense fire. The Commissars amongst the assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches. At the parapet they were met by the second wave, moving forwards to begin their own advance. It was pandemonium as the advancing and retreating units collided, choking the trenches with more men than they could accommodate. Fighting broke out as the officers of the second wave tried to force a passage forwards. After only a a couple of hours the 158th regiment's attack had disintegrated into a shambles.

p. 72, Imperial Armour 5, Siege of Vraks Part One

I don't know how rare it is. I would imagine out of so many DKoK regiments out there in the galaxy, this kind of thing would happen from time to time. It also shows the Commissars trying and failing and then being killed by their own side, so if the DKoK can do it, so can all the Guardsmen of all the other regiments from other worlds out there.

Iracundus wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Even the Death Korps of Krieg breaks. In the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books, there is just such an example of a regiment of DKoK breaking and retreating in the face of enemy fire. They may be fatalistic but even so at some level there will be a desire for self preservation (or at least wanting a worthy death).

Holy crap. Can you elaborate a bit more on that particular instance? I don't have that IA, but I'd love to hear more about that rare occurrence.

The first attack wave was already falling back in the face of intense fire. The Commissars amongst the assault squads demanded that the men stand firm and push on, summarily executing the first men to take any steps backwards. In return, several Commissars were shot out of hand by their own side as the shredded assault companies scurried back to the safety of their own trenches. At the parapet they were met by the second wave, moving forwards to begin their own advance. It was pandemonium as the advancing and retreating units collided, choking the trenches with more men than they could accommodate. Fighting broke out as the officers of the second wave tried to force a passage forwards. After only a a couple of hours the 158th regiment's attack had disintegrated into a shambles.

p. 72, Imperial Armour 5, Siege of Vraks Part One

I don't know how rare it is. I would imagine out of so many DKoK regiments out there in the galaxy, this kind of thing would happen from time to time. It also shows the Commissars trying and failing and then being killed by their own side, so if the DKoK can do it, so can all the Guardsmen of all the other regiments from other worlds out there.

Thanks for the fluff.

It's a pretty intense and harrowing description. War is madness. I have the song 'I got 5 on it' playing by Luniz and the beat just went so well with that description.

The Tyranids are running into some road blocks besides the Imperium as well.

The Necrons for sure could hold them off considering what resources a single tomb world contains. Hasn't it been speculated also that Tyranids can't consume Necron metal? And also instances of them avoiding Tomb Worlds entirely for that reason?

 Wilytank wrote:
The Tyranids are running into some road blocks besides the Imperium as well.

The Necrons for sure could hold them off considering what resources a single tomb world contains. Hasn't it been speculated also that Tyranids can't consume Necron metal? And also instances of them avoiding Tomb Worlds entirely for that reason?

That's presumably why they avoided Solemnace, a tomb world. Or they knew they'd lose.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
The Tyranids are running into some road blocks besides the Imperium as well.

The Necrons for sure could hold them off considering what resources a single tomb world contains. Hasn't it been speculated also that Tyranids can't consume Necron metal? And also instances of them avoiding Tomb Worlds entirely for that reason?

That's presumably why they avoided Solemnace, a tomb world. Or they knew they'd lose.

I thought it was mostly because most Tomb Worlds are horrible barren? That's why they don't attack. And why wouldn't they be able to consume Necron metal? They can eat up basically everything else. My assumption was that they just always phased out and so the metal couldn't be taken unless the entire planet was taken over. And without biomass to support the Nids, that wasn't very likely to happen, so they just skipped over Tomb Planets with little biomass.

All living things need sustenance while they expend energy, lacking FTL travel the Tyranid Hive Fleets would spend millenia in the void with no source to replenish lost energy, chances are Billions++ have died in transit.

Then there's the old argument of fluff not transferring well to a game played by two players. Player one take fluffy marines, player two can take any faction he likes, he's going to lose horribly.

Also; Why can't Tyranids consume metal? Iron is present in all of us, and fluff regularly states that Nids strip a planet of all usable resources. I really don't see how living metal would be any different. In fact a hybrid Necron-Tyranid might just be a perfect species.

Tomb worlds offer little return for a great deal of effort so they are not high priority targets when there are other worlds with much better reward vs. risk. However Tyranids can and have attacked and consumed tomb worlds before as shown in the Necron Codex, so there is nothing about Necron material that makes them immune. That is just a repeated piece of fan fiction/wishful thinking.

Much of the territory once ruled by the Charnovokh Dynasty lies far to the galactic southeast. Many of its dormant Tomb WOrlds were devoured by Hive Fleet Behemoth, and countless others have been ravaged during the Imperium's counterattacks against the Tyranids.

p.10, latest Necron Codex

The Tyranids are far to over hyped, its getting ridiculous with humanity facing about five different threats at the same time, two or three fine but that the Imperium is still standing after facing all these guys is absurd even by scifi fantasy stardards.

Personally, I think they are slaughtering everyone.

We are so used to the Tyranids about to slaughter everything around 15 years ago, since Codex: Tyranids 1st Edition came out, that we are forgetting they only started fully assaulting the Milky Way Galaxy approximately in 740.M41. That is only around 260 years from the current Armageddon/13th Black Crusade timeline.

As far as we know, Tyranids do not have Warp travel but look at how much damage they are achieving in that map.

It is only a matter of time before we become one with the Great Devourer.


-Dert

By blowing the feth out of them before they can make planetfall.

The Necrons use this tactic often.

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Even the Death Korps of Krieg breaks. In the Siege of Vraks Imperial Armour books, there is just such an example of a regiment of DKoK breaking and retreating in the face of enemy fire. They may be fatalistic but even so at some level there will be a desire for self preservation (or at least wanting a worthy death).

Holy crap. Can you elaborate a bit more on that particular instance? I don't have that IA, but I'd love to hear more about that rare occurrence.

That image posted in the OP is actually the image that inspired me to start a Tyranid army. The threat is just . . . singular. The galaxy either needs to unite to defend, or succumb. . . or, Necrons.

One regiment IIRC breaks during another suicidal assault shooting the commissar and dieing like chumps.

Considering how that is less than a percent of the Imperial Guard force on the planet, its a non issue really, they probably spent too much time with Catachans or something.

 Bobthehero wrote:

One regiment IIRC breaks during another suicidal assault shooting the commissar and dieing like chumps.

Considering how that is less than a percent of the Imperial Guard force on the planet, its a non issue really, they probably spent too much time with Catachans or something.

Only 1 regiment broke. However they were 1 of 31 regiments. That is 3.2% and significantly higher than less than one percent.

The Imperium may be repressive and may attempt to use faith, xenophobia, hate, and fear to keep its troops in line but even so, morale exists and people break regardless.

I'll have to re-read, but its mentionned to be very localised, and only during one assault.

Might've been a company.

So its a regiment, but:

The first wave broke, falling back and making a huge mess out of everything, the Commissars blamed and BLAMED everyone, executing the officers and sending the troopers into the Penal Legion, I am assuming they never left Vraks.

The officers leader the second waves were trying to rallying everyone to push back again.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'll have to re-read, but its mentionned to be very localised, and only during one assault.

Might've been a company.

I quoted the thing already in this thread just a few posts above.

I dont know much about tyranids but are replacement nids made on planet or off planet? And wouldnt they have to be winning the battle to replace their dead?

As pure speculation couldnt the guard after an engagement burn all the bodies to a crisp and thus deny the tyranids the ability to replace all their dead and the guard?

From what i know a lot of tyranid defeats have been in space. And it seems that they need the element of surprise to be effective most of the time.

The tyranid battles seem a lot like the battles in the starship troopers movie. The bugs won when they had the element of surprise and when the enemy know nothing about what they are fighting but humans naturally learn so given the time to prepare i think they can eventually find a solution. Simple or complex.

But i dont think people will panic in the same way against nids as they will against other species because they are only killing animals, a lot easier than killing a talking sentient thing. And there is no hope of mercy being shown (well ish compared to some other races).

But based on someone who isnt too interested or knowledgeable on the fluff but it seems nids need surprise and ill preparation to succeed

Iracundus wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
I'll have to re-read, but its mentionned to be very localised, and only during one assault.

Might've been a company.

I quoted the thing already in this thread just a few posts above.

Oh hey, you did >.>

Well I posted the outcome, tho I'd point again that's its just the first wave.

They also mention Kriegsmen running away from An-garrath later on, tho they were probably making room for the Grey Knights (or they too had too much contact with other regiments)

 Swastakowey wrote:
I dont know much about tyranids but are replacement nids made on planet or off planet? And wouldnt they have to be winning the battle to replace their dead?

As pure speculation couldnt the guard after an engagement burn all the bodies to a crisp and thus deny the tyranids the ability to replace all their dead and the guard?

From what i know a lot of tyranid defeats have been in space. And it seems that they need the element of surprise to be effective most of the time.

The tyranid battles seem a lot like the battles in the starship troopers movie. The bugs won when they had the element of surprise and when the enemy know nothing about what they are fighting but humans naturally learn so given the time to prepare i think they can eventually find a solution. Simple or complex.

But i dont think people will panic in the same way against nids as they will against other species because they are only killing animals, a lot easier than killing a talking sentient thing. And there is no hope of mercy being shown (well ish compared to some other races).

But based on someone who isnt too interested or knowledgeable on the fluff but it seems nids need surprise and ill preparation to succeed

Burning the bodies won't help- see Pyrovores. Their fluff says that they go around munching rocks and metals (again, back to Necron debate, they could easily just kill the crons and have Pyrovores munch the tombs and monoliths) while their sentient Flamespurt weapon incinerates any who approach, and then the eat the ashes too.

Learning the Nid weakness has no benefit. For example, Hive Fleet Gorgon attacked the Tau Empire, who shot them apart with powerful pulse rifles. The Nids evolved to be more resistant, and some survived. The next breed were all but immune, but got caught in the forests and got slaughtered by Kroot. The next were lither, and killed some Kroot. The next were designed to kill them and won easily but got blown away yet again and so evolved immunity. The Tau retrofitted old weapons and ammo and broke out new gear and yet again the Nids evolved. Then they evolved Lictor-like skin that required battlesuits to track, invalidating their enemy's common footsoldier.

Tyranids also guarentee they land in the midst of confusion or dissarray. Their Narval ships' gravity trick means planets they are heading to suffer extreme influx of natural disasters and the Nids they plop down in Mycetic Spores. We know how effective Drop Pods are for Space Marines. Now load the Drop Pod with Carnifexes. And give it a bunch of tenticles and face. A hungry face. That eats you. And has a carnifex or Hive Tyrant. That eats you.
Then you have Gargoyles, Shrikes and Harpies swooping from above. And Ravenors Trygons and Rippers tunneling from below. And brainworms and giant fleas being shot at you. And Genestealers bursting from that tree over there. And Mawlocs swallowing whole squads in one gulp as they explode from the ground.

Then the spores start to choke you. And Spore Mines land next to you and melt your buddies with acid. And Lictors appear from nowhere. Venomthropes choke the air into green mist. Zoanthropes take out a Leman Russ or Land Raider with a sneeze. Tervigons are spawning more babies. Hive Guard are taking out guys around corners and behind walls.Warriors are walking about, 12 feet tall and pretty montrous in their own right. Biotitans are ripping down cities like its nothing.


I firmly think Tyranids win.

So in other words its ridiculous I stand corrected

Considering the Tyranids have been outright embarrassed by other factions numerous times in the fluff, the idea that they'e this omnopowerful all encompassing force of nature is wishful thinking.

Tyranids don't wreck face more often than they do for the same reason no other faction wrecks face more than they should. Because every once and awhile they run into someone who can outsmart them or out-badass them.

First things first, when will people on a whole ever understand that the Tyranid map shows the paths taken and not the entire fleet themselves? The actual Tyranid Hive Fleets are the tips of the paths- with everything behind them simply a route taken by the Hive Fleet's forces.

Secondly, it's simply the result of the Tyranids less being faction, and more a setting. So they typically end up the Worf of every story, to the point that the snowflake Tau took down a splinter fleet (although it should be noted that it was so small that the Imperium noted it for being a minor threat). Instead of the Tyranids being characters like Chaos, Orks, Eldar, or even Necrons now- the Tyranids are simply a setting. They only have two actual characters, the hive-mind and the Swarmlord. Besides that, they're simply single-minded gigantic bugs that provide a really nice alien enemy for Space Marine captain of the week to drop-kick off his planet, and typically used for such. Unless they ever become really big in the fandom, say larger than the other factions, they might actually become dangerous in the fluff, but now they're so easy to beat, all you need is one chapter of space marines and a lot of plotshields.

Also, the 'Nids aren't the greatest threat. Chaos has and always will be the greatest threat to the Imperium.

As Swas said, the Tyranids win most of their victories from surprise ambushes. Which is also hard considering their FTL sucks when they approach their destination. The greatest danger Nids pose is less the Nids themselves, and more the blackout they cause on all local communications in the systems. Imagine if Chaos capitalized on this, and swept through systems after the Tyranids came in and started opening up warp rifts to the Eye of Terror, with the Imperium completely ignorant of the massive threat thanks to the Nids blocking out all local communication.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Considering the Tyranids have been outright embarrassed by other factions numerous times in the fluff, the idea that they'e this omnopowerful all encompassing force of nature is wishful thinking.

Tyranids don't wreck face more often than they do for the same reason no other faction wrecks face more than they should. Because every once and awhile they run into someone who can outsmart them or out-badass them.

That's the thing- you CAN'T out-anything Tyranids. The Hove Mind can see everything through the eyes of every synapse creature and can formulate plans millions of degrees more thorough and all encompassing than anything a singular creature can control. It would like trying to play a game of 40k, where you can only control and see your Warlord and his unit, and all the rest react randomly, whereas the Nid player gets to control his entire army and see everything.

You can't outbadass Nids. As powerful as Calgar or Draigo or Logan is, the Nids are easily capable of simply creating an Anti-Draigo/Calgar/Logan/Whoever monster, or brood of monsters, and wiping him out. Or an anti-this and that. Nids can be anti-Everything, because that's how they fight. Remove your advantages and capitlize your weaknesses.


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Tyranids lose because of plot armour. Simple. Them and Necrons are the two biggest threats. Orks have the potential but won't unit. Eldar have the Technology but are too few. Chaos can summon Daemons but without humanity how can they? Chaos is the ultimate threat in the fluff because it corrupts the soul and sends it to damnation at the feet of the Dark Gods. In the same way Christians believe in Satan as the ultimate threat but atheist would say a Nuclear bomb or biological/chemical weapon.

Necrons have their fantastic technology and their fleets can take anything on, and reliably win.