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I had a game yssterday where my opponent's charriot charged my wheel thanks tp it needing like 8 and I rolled trip 2. And he swears down impact hits are resolved before the combat phase even begining combat phase thus denying me my grind attacks done at the start and people with asf. While I may have missed something. Could someonr clarify this and reference page no etc

Sorry if been done before and thanks in advance

Impact hits are described on page 71 of the BRB, and occur "at the very beginning of the close combat, before challenges are issued and attacks of any other kind are made."

Grind Attacks are done "at the beginning of each round of combat..." (Skaven army book, page 67)

So you've basically got 3 options:
1) Impact hits occur before Grind, due to Grind being "attacks of any other kind".
2) They occur simultaneously, as both are "at the beginning", and the Skaven rule beats "attacks of any other kind" as it is more "specific".
3) They occur simultaneously, and as such the controlling player chooses the order (BRB page 10 - Sequencing)

Always saw everyone play grinding attacks simultaneous with impact hits
simple and makes sense as they're the same idea

Only issue with option 3 being we are both controlling players and in a tournament neither player would back down. As in this case the whhel had already battered 2 units of chariots and was taking on his 3rd charging unit. With 1 wound left

Controlling player means the player whose turn it is.
Actually, simultaneous attacks always both happen, so it is irrelevant which goes first.

So the only question is whether grinding comes under "any other type of attack". I think it does, because of the basic principles of special rules.

A rule which is like others does not get the benefits or drawbacks of those rules just because they are similar. If grinding doesn't have the same text as impact hits, then I think itcomes after impact, but before asf.

It appears pretty cut and dry to me.
Pg 71 '... before attacks of any kind..'
Impact hits are first.
If you survive, grind comes next.
It makes sense in a fluffy way too.

Gonna have to agree with the above. Impact Hits come first, then Grind.
I don't think it makes much sense--I mean, the concept of Grind attacks is exactly the same as the imagery behind Impact Hits--but that's how it goes.

To clarify, though, Impact Hits do not occur before combat. They just go first. If they happened before combat, they wouldn't count towards CR.

You could argue that impact hits fall under the "attacks of any kind" type, which would make the grinding hits happen first
sure they're not used with an "Attack" stat, but you're still attacking the opponent in some way
Never saw (in actual games, not the internet) anyone even thinking it should happen at a different time than impact hits

Thanks for page reference. And with some cross checking under basic versus advanced on pg11.

I would like to point out anyone claiming impact hits first the grind are wrong. In fact the actual way it would work is grind then impact hits. Thanks to this one paragraph:

"On rare occassions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book (aka Impact hits), and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammers Armies book takes precedence."

Now impact hits always strike at the very begining of combat yada yada yada.
Grind attacks are resolve at the start of combat.

The only difference is semantics. So hiwpi from here on in is simultaneously in friendlies and tournaments argue the hell if neccessary for striking first or compromise at simultaneously


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And there is no faq either way from the official gw website

@Wargamer: I disagree with your interpretation.

There is no conflict between the two rules. Impact Hits state that they happen at the beginning of combat before any other attacks. Grind merely happens at the beginning of combat.

wargamer1985 wrote:
Thanks for page reference. And with some cross checking under basic versus advanced on pg11.

I would like to point out anyone claiming impact hits first the grind are wrong. In fact the actual way it would work is grind then impact hits. Thanks to this one paragraph:

"On rare occassions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this book (aka Impact hits), and one printed in a Warhammer Armies book. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the Warhammers Armies book takes precedence."

Now impact hits always strike at the very begining of combat yada yada yada.
Grind attacks are resolve at the start of combat.

The only difference is semantics. So hiwpi from here on in is simultaneously in friendlies and tournaments argue the hell if neccessary for striking first or compromise at simultaneously


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And there is no faq either way from the official gw website

As stated above, there is no conflict. Grind says at the beginning. Impact Hits say at the beginning before ANY other type of attack. Caps added.
Is Grind another type of attack? Yes.
Does Grind have a clause to say it goes before any other kind of attack? No.
Does that mean that Impact Hits happen first? Yes.

Both state at the begining therefor there is conflict kicking in army book conflict cause. Either way imma run it by our flgs tournie organiser who is an ex member of team canada


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And your interpreting old rules versus new so you have to open uup some interpretation on meaning. But since both happen at the start of combat. See above.

And would you claim impact overrides banners snd itemd that inflict hits at the stsrt of combat on anymodels in b2b etc ad well?

wargamer1985 wrote:
Both state at the begining therefor there is conflict kicking in army book conflict cause. Either way imma run it by our flgs tournie organiser who is an ex member of team canada


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And your interpreting old rules versus new so you have to open uup some interpretation on meaning. But since both happen at the start of combat. See above.

And would you claim impact overrides banners snd itemd that inflict hits at the stsrt of combat on anymodels in b2b etc ad well?

Of course it would go before banners and items, since they are "any other type of attack".

That clause means there is no conflict, since it is explicit. ASF attacks also happen at the beginning, but Impact hits happen first.

Again, in order to have a conflict, Grind would need to say "at the beginning of combat, before any other type of attacks" or else by FAQed to happen at the same time as Impact Hits.

I agree with what Niteware just wrote. Here, we've always played that impact hits go before anything else.

Nicely verified by our head honcho, as both happen at the start. Regardless of impact hits wording it happens at the start exactly the same as grind and therefor only fair way is simultaneous as advanced army book overrides brb advanced.

wargamer1985 wrote:
Regardless of impact hits wording... exactly the same as grind... advanced army book overrides brb advanced.

Deleted extraneous material.
1. Regardless of wording you can say that all attacks happen at the same time
2. Grind has different text to Impact Hits and is a different rule. They are not the same.
3. There is no conflict, since there is no rule for Grind in the BRB. This means that the army book can't override it.
4. Your TO has ruled on a house rule for simplicity. Excellent. Makes things friendly.

I certainly think that they should work at the same time. But Impact Hits say "any other attacks". There is no such wording in Grind.
They both occur at the beginning of combat. There is a further clause in Impact Hits.

wargamer1985 wrote:
And your interpreting old rules versus new so you have to open uup some interpretation on meaning.

No, you don't. You just read them as-is, and sift through any confusing bits.

I think your guy made the right call. But the RAW says differently.

Right call also made by the world teams... At the end of the day both are at the start of combat making the conflict of advanced rules and page 11 explicitly dictatesarmy book overrides brb if yoy want to ignore raw quit now


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And if you want to RaW vs RaI then yh RaI impact hits first BUT RaW no simultaneous no other way to interpret.

wargamer1985 wrote:
Right call also made by the world teams... At the end of the day both are at the start of combat making the conflict of advanced rules and page 11 explicitly dictatesarmy book overrides brb if yoy want to ignore raw quit now


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And if you want to RaW vs RaI then yh RaI impact hits first BUT RaW no simultaneous no other way to interpret.

Clearly there are other interpretations available. You have had to write that you ignore part of Impact hits and allow for older rules being different. Both of those clearly take you away from RAW.

The decision to play both as simultaneous makes sense, but is clearly not what is written.

Would you argue that ASF happens at the same time as Grind too?

So reading the comments, is it correct to add grind attacks as well as impact hits when the DW charges ?

I've always played the impact hits replace grind attacks when it successfully charges, although this maybe more of a fluff reason rather than RAW.
i.e. the impetus of the charge causes only impact hits, but the rats turning the wheels cause grind attacks in susbsequent rounds of combat....

Grind attacks specifically happen in "any turn where the Doomwheel does not charge"
so sadly no, no impact hits + grind (makes sense though)

wargamer1985 wrote:
...At the end of the day both are at the start of combat making the conflict of advanced rules and page 11 explicitly dictatesarmy book overrides brb if yoy want to ignore raw quit now

And if you want to RaW vs RaI then yh RaI impact hits first BUT RaW no simultaneous no other way to interpret.

How do you figure that it's RAI for Impact Hits to happen after Grind attacks?Impact Hits are described as damage caused by the bulk of the unit crashing into the enemy. Grind attacks only occur when a Doomwheel (which has Impact Hits) doesn't charge, and represents it rolling over the foe. Grind attacks are clearly meant to be Impact Hits, but with the additional rule that they occur without charging.

But the actual written rules don't support that. You're kind of outnumbered, here. Check it:

BRB p.71 "Impact Hits are resolved at the very beginning of combat...before...any other kind of attacks are made."
Skaven book p.67 "The Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round combat in which it did not charge."

Question 1: What are "any other kind of attacks"? Answer 1: Any attacks that are not Impact Hits.
Question 2: Is the "Grind Attack" an Impact Hit? Answer 2: No.

Thus, "Grind Attacks" fall under "any other kind of attacks". The argument that there's a rule conflict because they both occur at the beginning of combat is false, because it assumes that "the beginning of combat" cannot be broken down into further pieces. Which, given what we know about Initiative, Always Strikes First, and other rules, is not true.
If you're really hung up on this, consider the following: Impact Hits are made at the very beginning of close combat. Grind Attacks are merely made at the beginning.

A worthwhile note: the Skaven book p.66 "Wounds caused by the fog are resolved before Impact Hits, issuing challenges, and revealing Assassins". --this is a case of where Specific > General, because it explicitly says something other than the BRB. But there is no such clarification or conflict in the Doomwheel's rules. Not technically.