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You hate them. Got it.

Any perspectives on other chapters turning? Surely there is possibility for it in more than two chapters. I wish I could comment more, but I've only really delved into the fluff of Space Wolves and dabbled in Thousand Sons.

 Psienesis wrote:
It doesn't, because the planet of Fenris is geologically unstable. Every few years it passes through a meteor shower in the Fenris System which causes massive storms and raining stones and fire to fall from the skies, destroying the islands the people live on, forcing them to pack up, move, find new islands that are rising out of the oceans, kill the other Fenrisians who are trying to move onto the same rock, and then set up camp again.

Fenris has no permanent settlements other than the Fang.

Is your premise that nomadic or semi-nomatic peoples can't have a rich, artistic, or inventive culture? The real world has countless examples of this.

 Psienesis wrote:
Which is not present in Fenrisian culture. They are stereotypical Vikings. Savage drinkers, hunters, boasters, tellers of tales, bedders of women, and fond of ribald jokes. This is the content presented to us by GW.

Can one really have any meaningful conversation on the types of cultures presented in the universe if the requirement is that every single aspect of every single culture be painstakingly spelled out in order to be valid? If you're sticking with the idea that "if GW doesn't specifically detail it, it doesn't exist" then nothing in the 40k universe can exist as anything more than a pale two-dimensional caricature of life because the writers only work on certain things at a time, and "what space marines did before they were space marines" is probably not at all on their list of important things. On the other hand, the space wolves are painted as being a tribal or clanish culture, and the deliberate choices are meant to evoke the dark-ages norse. We can either assume the writers are hacks and these choices were arbitrary, or we can assume that the writers meant for us to go "oh, they are like the norse, so I should just picture them as the Norse, but in space." These are all deliberate choices on behalf of the writers. They are meant to paint a complete picture in as few words as possible with us filling in the gaps on our own based on our knowledge of the parent culture.

 Psienesis wrote:
Most importantly? It doesn't have anything to do with their culture, or with the fictional real-world culture they are a parody of. Disliking the Space Wolves is directly related to actions the Chapter has been stated as being involved in. It has everything to do with how the Space Wolves have been presented in the First War of Armageddon, the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy following the Edict of Nikea, and their actions during the Badab War.

This is where a real conversation can actually begin, but it's also not addressing the original statement that sparked the conversation:

 Lynata wrote:
although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Debating the actions of the space wolves throughout their history and how it affects their relationship with the Imperium as a whole is a conversation that can be had through an in-world view. Trashing the "culture" is one that can only be had from the perspective of the players outside the world. After all, it wasn't "according to book X, guardsman Y said Z about the space wolves chapter culture." It's players discussing their out-of-world opinions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
You hate them. Got it.

Any perspectives on other chapters turning? Surely there is possibility for it in more than two chapters. I wish I could comment more, but I've only really delved into the fluff of Space Wolves and dabbled in Thousand Sons.

The really obvious ones are always going to be the ones who told the smurf lord to stuff-it, as they are already weird in one way or another: Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves.

A less obvious one is perhaps the Black Templar. They are a ridiculously large (by marine standards) force that is all about the zealous slaying of anything that looks slightly funny. If there's anything more dangerous than lust for carnage, its' getting to drape that lust in self-righteousness. I don't think it would be a huge plot leap for a crusade of BT to start going off for lesser and lesser reasons, or even inventing reasons to purge. Next thing you know, Khorne has a new disciple -- He's not a fan of witches either.

Is your premise that nomadic or semi-nomatic peoples can't have a rich, artistic, or inventive culture? The real world has countless examples of this.

Name me a nomadic culture that loses everything it can't carry on its members' backs every couple of years and that wars with its neighbors at all times over resources and hunting grounds that has a rich, artistic culture.

Can one really have any meaningful conversation on the types of cultures presented in the universe if the requirement is that every single aspect of every single culture be painstakingly spelled out in order to be valid? If you're sticking with the idea that "if GW doesn't specifically detail it, it doesn't exist" then nothing in the 40k universe can exist as anything more than a pale two-dimensional caricature of life because the writers only work on certain things at a time, and "what space marines did before they were space marines" is probably not at all on their list of important things. On the other hand, the space wolves are painted as being a tribal or clanish culture, and the deliberate choices are meant to evoke the dark-ages norse. We can either assume the writers are hacks and these choices were arbitrary, or we can assume that the writers meant for us to go "oh, they are like the norse, so I should just picture them as the Norse, but in space." These are all deliberate choices on behalf of the writers. They are meant to paint a complete picture in as few words as possible with us filling in the gaps on our own based on our knowledge of the parent culture.

Yes, because if GW didn't say it, then what you say or I say are equally valid, as neither of us have any sort of "canon" to fall back on. Where you see "artistic, inventive culture", I see Stereotypical Meathead Vikings In Space. We can fill in the gaps with absolutely whatever we want, and neither of us is wrong. There's no debate to be had there, as that's not how the setting works.

So all that *can* be debated is what GW has written.

Trashing the "culture" is one that can only be had from the perspective of the players outside the world. After all, it wasn't "according to book X, guardsman Y said Z about the space wolves chapter culture." It's players discussing their out-of-world opinions.

There's been plenty of text written about the culture of Fenris and the cultures of the various Space Marine Chapters (and specifically the Space Wolves) to say whether or not the various hypno-indoctrinations, implanted thoughts, martial training regimens and all the rest have been, or have not been, effective in building a stalwart band of warriors. In this case, it would seem not.

I would say DA successor chapters probably have gone renegade (and renegade chapters tend to end up falling to chaos at some point as they either get crushed by the IoM or flee to the eye of terror). Though I would bet that any DA chapter that goes renegade soon finds themselves secretly disposed of by the entire pseudo DA legion.

I think the problem with narrowing out chapters that would likely fall to chaos is that most of the chapters could probably fall to chaos just due to a bad series of events. Look at the Badab war where a significant number of chapters went renegade, got whooped, and then formed the red corsairs without ever really meaning to fall to chaos. One corrupt leader and a few missions where you do as your told and bang! you are a renegade marine and/or chaos marine.

You know that you are doing the exact same thing in reverse. You think the colonialists tried to convert the native Americans, teach them to dress/act like Europeans, and took their land because they thought they weren't "using" it correctly? They converted them to increase the power of the religion on the Americas, they taught them to dress and act like Europeans to better enable trade and negotiation, and they took the land because they could and they wanted/needed more land due to burgeoning European populations.

As a historian I have to object. There was very much a racial, religious and cultural aim to converting Native Americans to Western culture. It was all about "we're better and you're stinking heathen savages. We'll kill the Indian and save the man." Check out the Carlisle Indian Industrial School and Pratt's ideology behind it.

Okay this the last I will post on this as real world cultural bias' should have never been brought in as the main motivation for a dislike of SW. If anyone has a disagreement of what I said and wants to discuss it PM me.

@MWHistorian
And yet when it comes down to it the majority of the native american population was not even attempted to be converted but was rather transferred off their land and/or killed. There is a much greater trend in history to dehumanize those you want to dispose of, steal from, or otherwise wrong irregardless of how close their culture resembles yours.

Wasn't there something floating around once about a 40k alternate universe? Try googling the Dornian Heresy. An interesting read. I like the Space Wolves of Khorne more than the regular variety

 troa wrote:
Grey Knights would be very difficult to turn. I'd see them going renegade instead of being turned, but their sense of duty is extreme and so that is not likely too happen even if individual knights do become disillusioned with the imperium.

Blood Angels could certainly turn, especially if whatever continues to cause the black rage was corrupted.

I don't know why you would even mention GK. They're pretty much the last chapter that would ever renegade much less fall to Chaos. They're described as both indoctrinated in the doctrines of the Emperor to the point of religious nuttery and the most chaos resilient breed of human in the galaxy.

 Purifier wrote:
I don't know why you would even mention GK. They're pretty much the last chapter that would ever renegade much less fall to Chaos. They're described as both indoctrinated in the doctrines of the Emperor to the point of religious nuttery and the most chaos resilient breed of human in the galaxy.

To be fair the loyalty of the GK is directly proportional to the amount of Adepta sororitas blood available. Without proper reserves of this precious lacquer the GK are susceptible to chaos' influence.

 ansacs wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
I don't know why you would even mention GK. They're pretty much the last chapter that would ever renegade much less fall to Chaos. They're described as both indoctrinated in the doctrines of the Emperor to the point of religious nuttery and the most chaos resilient breed of human in the galaxy.

To be fair the loyalty of the GK is directly proportional to the amount of Adepta sororitas blood available. Without proper reserves of this precious lacquer the GK are susceptible to chaos' influence.

I'm sure if they ever ran out of Sisters to lather the squeeky joints of their armour with Mr Ward would invent a rift to an alternate world full of naked dancing Sisters for the GK to massacre at will.

Don't you think sacrificing women to smear their blood on one's self is just a bit Chaosy to begin with? Same goes for consuming psykers. I bet the Emperor is really just an incarnation of Tzeentch.

As for the alternate 40k universe, I've heard of it but haven't gotten to it. Sounds very interesting.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Since when are Space Wolves renegade? At any rate, being renegade doesn't necessarily mean they've devoted themselves to Chaos, just that they've become disillusioned with the state of the Imperium. Granted, I am a Space Wolves player, but I can't see them going to Chaos. Though I have to admit like the Blood Angels, there is an...instability in the geneseed and temperament that could make it possible. I could see renegade easily if they were pushed hard enough.

Blood Angels came to mind first for me as well. I don't know enough to say how close they are but they'd certainly go to Khorne.

Not technically a Chapter, I think it wouldn't take much for Grey Knights to turn, given their great, and frequent exposure to Chaos.

Wulfen from the 13th company are mutants plain and simple. BA won't turn to worshipping khorne until the chapter stops resisting its curse. The day it embraces its curse is the day they dedicate themselves to the blood god.

As for the GKs they are culled and tempered specifically to make them highly if not completely resistent to the corrupting influence of chaos due to their overexposure to it. They likelihood of a entire force of GKs going over to chaos is slim to none. Meanwhile if a single GK or squad started showing signs they would be put down with extreme prejudice and no one else would ever know it happened.

Skriker

I think the idea that GK special conditioning is that successful is just the Imperium believing it's own hype. They are the least likely to turn, maybe, but that's only relative to SM really. It's perspective.

The Wulfen are muties. Just like every SM. That's a bit of a digression, but the SW aren't renegade. Though that doesn't mean they couldn't turn to Chaos en masse. What's the history of Adepta Sororitas falling?