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Of the current loyalist Space Marine chapters, which do you think would convert or are closest to converting to Chaos? Which deity, and why? How will they turn? Let's hear it!

Blood angels and Khorne, they are already falling its just a matter of when.

Dark angels are a renegade chapter in all but name, so may fall too

Blood ravens have already had there flirt with chaos

Space wolves are already a renegade chapter but everyone likes them so meh

Well, we know that Khorne takes an interest in the Blood Angels - Naturally, the BA won't fall, but their successors are all probably on a watch-list for the Inquisition.
I imagine there are several other late-founding chapters who I'd say are "at risk", but of the 1st founding, the BA are probably the ones most "teetering on the brink" - which according to some, is where their strength comes from.

Since when are Space Wolves renegade? At any rate, being renegade doesn't necessarily mean they've devoted themselves to Chaos, just that they've become disillusioned with the state of the Imperium. Granted, I am a Space Wolves player, but I can't see them going to Chaos. Though I have to admit like the Blood Angels, there is an...instability in the geneseed and temperament that could make it possible. I could see renegade easily if they were pushed hard enough.

Blood Angels came to mind first for me as well. I don't know enough to say how close they are but they'd certainly go to Khorne.

Not technically a Chapter, I think it wouldn't take much for Grey Knights to turn, given their great, and frequent exposure to Chaos.

Grey Knights would be very difficult to turn. I'd see them going renegade instead of being turned, but their sense of duty is extreme and so that is not likely too happen even if individual knights do become disillusioned with the imperium.

Blood Angels could certainly turn, especially if whatever continues to cause the black rage was corrupted.

I suppose the same could be said for the Space Wolves as Blood Angels. They have a similar infliction with the Wulfen. Since all SW have to battle with that, it could potentially create an in for Chaos. Khorne is an obvious choice I think, but I also believe the Wolves would be tempted by Slaanesh.

Bunch of drunk Space Marines gorging themselves and partying, dreaming of te next big battle, praying that it'll be bigger than the last, get a better fix. Man, looking at it now, maybe they're not so far away after all.

 Formosa wrote:
Blood angels and Khorne, they are already falling its just a matter of when.

Dark angels are a renegade chapter in all but name, so may fall too

Blood ravens have already had there flirt with chaos

Space wolves are already a renegade chapter but everyone likes them so meh

Blood Angels are one of the most loyal chapters. The Red Thirst is when Blood Angels become mad because they see pictures in their heads of their Primarch slain in the hands of Horus. If anything it makes them more anti Chaos...

If normal Dark Angels discover about the fallen then maybe, but again this may create even more hatred towards Chaos.

Blood Ravens have had their time in the dark light. The chapter is basically pure, but unfortunately ruined beyond repair.

Space Wolves might end up in a similar mess to the Thousand Sons, since they have a lack of trust. We'll see...

G.A

The astral claws...oh.

Honestly there are quite a few chapters that are on the edge of falling to chaos and may already be worshipping a chaos god.

The flesh tearers, space sharks, and all the blood angels successors are already worshiping khorne with their actions if not their intent.

Space wolves and dark angels probably won't fall to chaos per se but they are very near being renegade. As we all know renegade chapters are Tzeentch's playthings.

I would not be surprised to find out that nurgle has deeply penetrated the ultramarines and successors as their dedication the codex reeks of stagnation.

So basically I see astartes as almost entirely on the edge of falling to chaos.

That's an interesting viewpoint. Makes them seem less untouchable. While being superhuman, they're still riding a tenuous line like the rest of creation. Says something about the power of chaos.

I think Tzeentchian Space Wolves would be interesting to see. I'm sort of doing something like that for my Thousand Sons, visually, but culturally, I think it would be....weird.

Blood Angels may turn renegade, but not all renegades turn to Chaos. Due to the origin of their flaw (the killing of the their Primarch at the hands of Chaos), I think they will merely go crazy but not turn to Chaos. Maybe SW will have to do a Prospero and kill the BA when they turn crazy, triggering another CIVIL WAR!?!?!

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Since when are Space Wolves renegade? At any rate, being renegade doesn't necessarily mean they've devoted themselves to Chaos, just that they've become disillusioned with the state of the Imperium. Granted, I am a Space Wolves player, but I can't see them going to Chaos. Though I have to admit like the Blood Angels, there is an...instability in the geneseed and temperament that could make it possible. I could see renegade easily if they were pushed hard enough.

Blood Angels came to mind first for me as well. I don't know enough to say how close they are but they'd certainly go to Khorne.

Not technically a Chapter, I think it wouldn't take much for Grey Knights to turn, given their great, and frequent exposure to Chaos.

And you call yourself a spacewolve player , you are a shame for allfather and Russ....
Troll apart , more serious, the canis helix react against the warp energies, and that reaction are the wulfens, if the space wolve astarte is exposed to chaos wartp energies, he would become a feral beast that RESIST the chaos influence, hence they cant be tainted by the corruption of the chaos, and there is the why the 13th great company have to much wulfens and keep fighting in the eye of terror and keeping theirs oath to Russ and the allfather., and is heresy to say that the space wolves fall to schemes of tzeench, they are stronger to the warp magic
Similar with the blood angels, but instead of becoming furrie beast, the simple lost the reality and beocme savage warriors, inbuid with the fury and anger AGAINTS the chaos and Horus, for he kill Sanguinious, so when they loose their minds, they are trnaported to the moment of the dead of their primach and fight to avenge him... they cant turn to chaos, neither renegades, because they have the proof thet the black rage can be overcome, Dante is 1090 years old and he dindt fall.

 anyeri wrote:

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
Since when are Space Wolves renegade? At any rate, being renegade doesn't necessarily mean they've devoted themselves to Chaos, just that they've become disillusioned with the state of the Imperium. Granted, I am a Space Wolves player, but I can't see them going to Chaos. Though I have to admit like the Blood Angels, there is an...instability in the geneseed and temperament that could make it possible. I could see renegade easily if they were pushed hard enough.

Blood Angels came to mind first for me as well. I don't know enough to say how close they are but they'd certainly go to Khorne.

Not technically a Chapter, I think it wouldn't take much for Grey Knights to turn, given their great, and frequent exposure to Chaos.

And you call yourself a spacewolve player , you are a shame for allfather and Russ....
Troll apart , more serious, the canis helix react against the warp energies, and that reaction are the wulfens, if the space wolve astarte is exposed to chaos wartp energies, he would become a feral beast that RESIST the chaos influence, hence they cant be tainted by the corruption of the chaos, and there is the why the 13th great company have to much wulfens and keep fighting in the eye of terror and keeping theirs oath to Russ and the allfather., and is heresy to say that the space wolves fall to schemes of tzeench, they are stronger to the warp magic
Similar with the blood angels, but instead of becoming furrie beast, the simple lost the reality and beocme savage warriors, inbuid with the fury and anger AGAINTS the chaos and Horus, for he kill Sanguinious, so when they loose their minds, they are trnaported to the moment of the dead of their primach and fight to avenge him... they cant turn to chaos, neither renegades, because they have the proof thet the black rage can be overcome, Dante is 1090 years old and he dindt fall.

I may be misreading this, but are you saying that Wolves cannot fall to Chaos? Because...they have. Half a ship's worth. At once.

He's not saying it's impossible, just less likely than most other chapters. When does half a ship turn to chaos though? That would be interresting.

Maybe he is referring to the Strike Cruiser Wolf of Fenris? I don't think it was "half a ship's worth", but one of the CSM codices mentions the Red Corsairs boarding it, and as soon as the SW notice they won't be winning that fight, a number of them turn around and gun down their former comrades, pledging their allegiance to Blackheart.

That probably doesn't really qualify as Chaos corruption but rather faithlessness and disloyalty, although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Okay, I see everyone hear being all "urgurrr Blood angels and blood and khorne and blood god" but if you actually read the fluff, Blood Angels aren't really a bunch of bloodthirsty axe murderers. Theyre just that. Angels. They strive for perfection, enjoy winged flight and happen to be equipped with swords that they've become very adept at using. The Red Thirst only makes them more like Vampires than Khorne worshippers.

The Black rage does kind of throw me, I suppose if the whole chapter succumbed simultaneously to the influence of the BR and no one conquered it like good ol Mephy did, then they might "fall" to Chaos, but at that point I wouldnt even call them Blood Angels. Khornate Death Company maybe?

If I thought they would legitimately fall to chaos, they would go the way of the Emperor's Children. The fluff lines up a lot more than you would think.

 bocatt wrote:
Okay, I see everyone hear being all "urgurrr Blood angels and blood and khorne and blood god" but if you actually read the fluff, Blood Angels aren't really a bunch of bloodthirsty axe murderers. Theyre just that. Angels. They strive for perfection, enjoy winged flight and happen to be equipped with swords that they've become very adept at using. The Red Thirst only makes them more like Vampires than Khorne worshippers.

The Black rage does kind of throw me, I suppose if the whole chapter succumbed simultaneously to the influence of the BR and no one conquered it like good ol Mephy did, then they might "fall" to Chaos, but at that point I wouldnt even call them Blood Angels. Khornate Death Company maybe?

If I thought they would legitimately fall to chaos, they would go the way of the Emperor's Children. The fluff lines up a lot more than you would think.

This... sort of...

If you read the fluff of the BA, and understand what the Black Rage and Red Thirst is, then you know that it is basically impossible for BA to turn to chaos. Sufferers have nightmares and visions of their Primarch being slaughtered by Horus... I highly doubt that would make them want to turn to the very thing that assisted in the killing of their hero. The Red Thirst and Black Rage are chapter unique conditions... perhaps you could call it a disease. But it certainly isn't an opening to dark pursuits or possessions.

... and if any of you read BA fluff, you'll know that sufferers of the Black Rage seek to die in the most glorious way possible in battle, just like Sanguinius did. With that in mind, I don't think they will live long enough to have their condition turn them completely mad...

G.A

 bocatt wrote:
Okay, I see everyone hear being all "urgurrr Blood angels and blood and khorne and blood god" but if you actually read the fluff, Blood Angels aren't really a bunch of bloodthirsty axe murderers. Theyre just that. Angels. They strive for perfection, enjoy winged flight and happen to be equipped with swords that they've become very adept at using. The Red Thirst only makes them more like Vampires than Khorne worshippers.

The Black rage does kind of throw me, I suppose if the whole chapter succumbed simultaneously to the influence of the BR and no one conquered it like good ol Mephy did, then they might "fall" to Chaos, but at that point I wouldnt even call them Blood Angels. Khornate Death Company maybe?

If I thought they would legitimately fall to chaos, they would go the way of the Emperor's Children. The fluff lines up a lot more than you would think.

I agree for the most part.

When it comes to Death Company I don't know why they would fall to choas. The whole point of their state is that they have memories where their Primarch was killed by choas and they want to avenge him. Death Company might lose their minds and go berserk but the first time they see chaos they will kill it instinctively, but then perhaps this is what Khorne wants. In a sense they may fall in that manner but in terms of teaming up with all the other chaos warbands it just won't happen.

General Annoyance wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
Okay, I see everyone hear being all "urgurrr Blood angels and blood and khorne and blood god" but if you actually read the fluff, Blood Angels aren't really a bunch of bloodthirsty axe murderers. Theyre just that. Angels. They strive for perfection, enjoy winged flight and happen to be equipped with swords that they've become very adept at using. The Red Thirst only makes them more like Vampires than Khorne worshippers.

The Black rage does kind of throw me, I suppose if the whole chapter succumbed simultaneously to the influence of the BR and no one conquered it like good ol Mephy did, then they might "fall" to Chaos, but at that point I wouldnt even call them Blood Angels. Khornate Death Company maybe?

If I thought they would legitimately fall to chaos, they would go the way of the Emperor's Children. The fluff lines up a lot more than you would think.

This... sort of...

If you read the fluff of the BA, and understand what the Black Rage and Red Thirst is, then you know that it is basically impossible for BA to turn to chaos. Sufferers have nightmares and visions of their Primarch being slaughtered by Horus... I highly doubt that would make them want to turn to the very thing that assisted in the killing of their hero. The Red Thirst and Black Rage are chapter unique conditions... perhaps you could call it a disease. But it certainly isn't an opening to dark pursuits or possessions.

... and if any of you read BA fluff, you'll know that sufferers of the Black Rage seek to die in the most glorious way possible in battle, just like Sanguinius did. With that in mind, I don't think they will live long enough to have their condition turn them completely mad...

G.A

The newer Space Marine battle novel Death of Integrity kinda sheds a little bit of a diffrent light on this. a seccessor of the BA, the Blood Drinkers, are being led down the road to chaos (being tricked by Tzeenetch) in their attempts to cure the Red Thirst/Black Rage. so its not so much the Thirst/Rage itself, but what the chapters might do to fight it that leads them to chaos.

Lest we forget, a big part of what led Magnus towards Chaos was that he wanted to stop the genetic mutations that were plauging his legion.

They don't have to actively turn to chaos, or even be aware that they are turning. "Hating chaos" has never been something that prevents someone from turning, and often one of the forces of chaos will exploit that hatred. It's not like loyal forces just decide "I like Chaos now, kaythanks", they can fight chaos all their lives and still end up helping them and eventually turn one degree at a time.

You can hate Khorne all you want and fight against him, but he will collect his skulls and blood from every enemy you kill no matter whose name you scream when you kill them.

 Lynata wrote:
That probably doesn't really qualify as Chaos corruption but rather faithlessness and disloyalty, although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Man, this is like the fifth post I've seen needlessly slamming the "culture" of the space wolves. What's the deal? Countless whole chapters following the smurfbook turn and that says nothing of the "culture" .. a handful of wolves desert and it's proof that their system doesn't work? Oi.

 kazian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
That probably doesn't really qualify as Chaos corruption but rather faithlessness and disloyalty, although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Man, this is like the fifth post I've seen needlessly slamming the "culture" of the space wolves. What's the deal? Countless whole chapters following the smurfbook turn and that says nothing of the "culture" .. a handful of wolves desert and it's proof that their system doesn't work? Oi.

I have a sneaking suspicion it's due to a Judo-Christian bias built into western culture (whether the individuals themselves are religious or not). The European west has been parading the same Roman "if you're not our culture, you're godless barbarians" schtick ever since they were invaded and converted. Thus, any culture that is different than ours is automatically underdeveloped, primitive, and lawless. The Victorians compounded the issue with their notion that everyone before them (even in their own culture) was idiotic and barbaric, which lead to stunning ideas like "knights fought with 20lbs swords!" or that they needed a crane to be lowered onto their horse. Or, later, the popular sentiment that natives don't need all that land - after all, what are they doing with it? Just shooting bows and running around all willy-nilly. If only we could convince them to dress the right way, believe the right things, yadda yadda.

TL;DR - we have a legacy of not being particularly great at recognizing the validity and merits of cultures that don't look like ours.

 Barbarus wrote:

 kazian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
That probably doesn't really qualify as Chaos corruption but rather faithlessness and disloyalty, although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Man, this is like the fifth post I've seen needlessly slamming the "culture" of the space wolves. What's the deal? Countless whole chapters following the smurfbook turn and that says nothing of the "culture" .. a handful of wolves desert and it's proof that their system doesn't work? Oi.

I have a sneaking suspicion it's due to a Judo-Christian bias built into western culture (whether the individuals themselves are religious or not). The European west has been parading the same Roman "if you're not our culture, you're godless barbarians" schtick ever since they were invaded and converted. Thus, any culture that is different than ours is automatically underdeveloped, primitive, and lawless. The Victorians compounded the issue with their notion that everyone before them (even in their own culture) was idiotic and barbaric, which lead to stunning ideas like "knights fought with 20lbs swords!" or that they needed a crane to be lowered onto their horse. Or, later, the popular sentiment that natives don't need all that land - after all, what are they doing with it? Just shooting bows and running around all willy-nilly. If only we could convince them to dress the right way, believe the right things, yadda yadda.

TL;DR - we have a legacy of not being particularly great at recognizing the validity and merits of cultures that don't look like ours.

You know that you are doing the exact same thing in reverse. You think the colonialists tried to convert the native Americans, teach them to dress/act like Europeans, and took their land because they thought they weren't "using" it correctly? They converted them to increase the power of the religion on the Americas, they taught them to dress and act like Europeans to better enable trade and negotiation, and they took the land because they could and they wanted/needed more land due to burgeoning European populations.

The idea of cultural superiority is not unique to any group. The Japanese pre and during WWII are a perfect example where they believed the Filipino people were little more than animals and so treated them as such (look it up, makes colonialism look friendly). And your perspective on the matter is a common anti-culture view point for people who do not look into the reason for information to spread.

As for 20Ib swords and cranes to get knights on horses have you heard some of the rumors and speculation thrown around the internet? Because I can show you how Dell is planting chips in people brains and Apple has a cadre of elite assigns.


The real reason why people consider the SW "almost renegade" is that they look from the perspective of the IoM administration. From that perspective the SW do not conform to the rules or laws that the IoM has told them to conform to. Technically they may actually be a renegade chapter that no one has passed judgement on yet. The DA are much the same in this aspect they just keep it secret rather than flaunting it.

 ansacs wrote:

You know that you are doing the exact same thing in reverse. You think the colonialists tried to convert the native Americans, teach them to dress/act like Europeans, and took their land because they thought they weren't "using" it correctly? They converted them to increase the power of the religion on the Americas, they taught them to dress and act like Europeans to better enable trade and negotiation, and they took the land because they could and they wanted/needed more land due to burgeoning European populations.

This really isn't the place for a discussion of historical ethics, but if you really want to get into it I'll comment briefly:

Eh? I don't follow you, friend. To "do the exact same thing in reverse," I would either have to be arguing that Culture B is in fact better than culture A (rather than A>B), or I would have to be specifically attacking culture A. Recognizing the validity of other cultures for their own merits is not in any way exalting said culture, so it wasn't the first. I'd also argue that it wasn't the latter, as the statements made are an inarguable fact.

What I did say is that historically, culture A attempts to convert and overwrite other cultures it comes into contact with - often by force, and with prejudice. On this statement, you agree with me and try to justify the "why" they did it.. but at the end of the day, you agreed with my statement that they in fact do do this thing. And in fact, have historically done this with every culture they bump into.

 ansacs wrote:
They converted them to increase the power of the religion on the Americas, they taught them to dress and act like Europeans to better enable trade and negotiation, and they took the land because they could and they wanted/needed more land due to burgeoning European populations.

They were trading with the natives in the americas long before they started trying to push Europeanization. I'm also confused by how "they wanted to increase power" or "they wanted more land" justifies anything one way or another.

 ansacs wrote:
The idea of cultural superiority is not unique to any group.

I didn't say it was. Moving on.

 ansacs wrote:
And your perspective on the matter is a common anti-culture view point for people who do not look into the reason for information to spread.

I'm not even sure what this sentence means. Which culture am I "anti" ? and what is my view point, exactly? I'm not sure you actually have any idea, given that my whole of my statement was an answer to someone else's question, and that answer was "because we have a culture bias that says cultures that aren't ours are idiotic." You don't ..actually argue against my statement, your counter is "other people think other cultures are dumb too!" I guess with the implication that it somehow makes it okay? Im not sure. I can't make sense of "for people who do not look into the reason for information to spread" either. Moving on.

 ansacs wrote:
have you heard some of the rumors and speculation thrown around the internet? Because I can show you how Dell is planting chips in people brains and Apple has a cadre of elite assigns.

I'm not sure how fringe beliefs and urban myths of today correlate to victorian attitudes about their predecessors. The best I can credit you is that you're trying to say "It wasn't just the victorians! we believe stupid things today!" Aside from the fact that this doesn't really help people, my statement about the 20lbs swords was specific tot he fact that scholars in the 1700s, 1800s, etc very frequently wrote that bias into the documents that they wrote in study and teaching of history. There's a pretty big difference between "a section of the population believes urban myths and conspiracy theories" and "heavily biased (and absurd) information being taught by leading scholars as fact."

 ansacs wrote:
The real reason why people consider the SW "almost renegade" is that they look from the perspective of the IoM administration. From that perspective the SW do not conform to the rules or laws that the IoM has told them to conform to. Technically they may actually be a renegade chapter that no one has passed judgement on yet. The DA are much the same in this aspect they just keep it secret rather than flaunting it.

The person to whom I was responding didn't ask why they were considered "almost renegade," and that wasn't the accusation I was responding to. He was asking why everyone bashed the culture so much. This was why the conversation then became about culture-bias, which you agreed with.

If you would like to have a further discussion on the topic, I'd gladly exchange PMs with you. Otherwise, I'll consider it dropped so as not to further derail the topic.

 Barbarus wrote:


The person to whom I was responding didn't ask why they were considered "almost renegade," and that wasn't the accusation I was responding to. He was asking why everyone bashed the culture so much. This was why the conversation then became about culture-bias, which you agreed with.

ouch. I didn't realize I would be starting a firestorm. But yes, I'm fine with the notion that they are borderline renegade. I'm just confused as to why there is so much hate on "the chapter culture" specifically. Like the above, I keep seeing these awkward "im going out of my way to put them down" jabs. I feel like I'm missing something. I don't see people constantly bashing the tribal roots of the Blood Angels or White Scars at every opportunity. I'm not offended, just confused. lol.

 kazian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
That probably doesn't really qualify as Chaos corruption but rather faithlessness and disloyalty, although one could say that this incident speaks volumes about the effects of their Chapter culture and lack of discipline.

Man, this is like the fifth post I've seen needlessly slamming the "culture" of the space wolves. What's the deal? Countless whole chapters following the smurfbook turn and that says nothing of the "culture" .. a handful of wolves desert and it's proof that their system doesn't work? Oi.

It's because the Space Wolves have, in their pig-headed arrogance (and ignorance) caused the loss of a half-dozen Imperial Worlds, simply because they were too damn stupid to understand how the threat of Chaos Taint works, and got in the way of the Grey Knights and the Inquisition (who *do* know these things) doing their jobs. They are also, since the Great Crusade, a fething huuuuuggggeeee pile of hypocrites.

The only reason this Chapter still exists is because of its plot armor. Had it been any other Chapter, Fenris would have been subject to Exterminatus long ago.

.... and, also, the event that happened there during the Badab War was a bunch of Space Wolves turning like little bishes. Some other Marines said "boo!" and these guys flipped like a coin. For all of their bonds of brotherhood, it sure didn't take those guys long to go renegade.

General Annoyance wrote:

 bocatt wrote:
Okay, I see everyone hear being all "urgurrr Blood angels and blood and khorne and blood god" but if you actually read the fluff, Blood Angels aren't really a bunch of bloodthirsty axe murderers. Theyre just that. Angels. They strive for perfection, enjoy winged flight and happen to be equipped with swords that they've become very adept at using. The Red Thirst only makes them more like Vampires than Khorne worshippers.

The Black rage does kind of throw me, I suppose if the whole chapter succumbed simultaneously to the influence of the BR and no one conquered it like good ol Mephy did, then they might "fall" to Chaos, but at that point I wouldnt even call them Blood Angels. Khornate Death Company maybe?

If I thought they would legitimately fall to chaos, they would go the way of the Emperor's Children. The fluff lines up a lot more than you would think.

This... sort of...

If you read the fluff of the BA, and understand what the Black Rage and Red Thirst is, then you know that it is basically impossible for BA to turn to chaos. Sufferers have nightmares and visions of their Primarch being slaughtered by Horus... I highly doubt that would make them want to turn to the very thing that assisted in the killing of their hero. The Red Thirst and Black Rage are chapter unique conditions... perhaps you could call it a disease. But it certainly isn't an opening to dark pursuits or possessions.

... and if any of you read BA fluff, you'll know that sufferers of the Black Rage seek to die in the most glorious way possible in battle, just like Sanguinius did. With that in mind, I don't think they will live long enough to have their condition turn them completely mad...

G.A

****Spoiler Alert for "Fear to Tread"****

@Psienesis
I would agree with this. With the added fact that it doesn't help that the SW tend to have an arrogance to their actions which is insulting. It is funny and gives them character but makes them somewhat TFG.

@Barbarus
The important thing is you are trying to say that the reason people don't like SW is a Judo-Christian bias where it is in realty an IoM bias. It is a bias against an army that is supposedly part of the IoM but disrespects almost everything about it. It has nothing to do with real world bias but everything to do with the fluff itself.

I don't think the Blood Thirst would be a direct cause, anymore than I do the Wulfen syndrome. I believe these are both conditions which could indirectly allow Chaos a foothold. I do believe it would be difficult to turn large numbers. The reference to Magnus and the Thousand Sons is a good point.

I also agree with the statement that hating Chaos ultimately means nothing. There are plenty of examples of that in the novel Ahriman: Exile. A Chaos hating renegade marine is possessed by a daemon, and Ahriman is shown to be disturbed by, wary of, and also ashamed of being Chaos.

I think the issue people take with Space Wolf culture isn't necessarily based in xenophobic arrogance (though that surely is a point), as much as I think it's ignorance of the culture. They take it at the stereotype level of drunken space Vikings (same goes for perceptions of actual Norse people). There is much more depth of culture in both instances than many people see. However, for attempts at hyperbole, taunting,or humor, they keep with the uneducated, undisciplined savages motif. Just as with the Blood Angels ( which I admit to knowing only that they and their conditions exist). Unfortunately, we don't get to see much depth of culture in this universe. I'm sure, like the Norse (Viking was just an occupation, not a people), that Space Wolves and Fenrisians, have a rich, artistic, inventive culture.

Does anyone have ideas about any other chapters?

I admire and dislike the whole concept of Space Wolves for almost the same reasons.

I admire that, unlike most things in the 40k setting, they have at least some regard for the lower rungs of people. They are not humanitarians, but they recognize the value of a fair shake. But in the very same breath, it puts a poor taste in my mouth because that kind of 'good guy' mentality has led to far greater losses of life and destruction.

I admire, to a degree, the stubborn independence. But at the same time, they are so stuck in that mentality that they will war with their allies for their concerns and investigations.

I think the issue people take with Space Wolf culture isn't necessarily based in xenophobic arrogance (though that surely is a point), as much as I think it's ignorance of the culture. They take it at the stereotype level of drunken space Vikings (same goes for perceptions of actual Norse people). There is much more depth of culture in both instances than many people see. However, for attempts at hyperbole, taunting,or humor, they keep with the uneducated, undisciplined savages motif. Just as with the Blood Angels ( which I admit to knowing only that they and their conditions exist). Unfortunately, we don't get to see much depth of culture in this universe. I'm sure, like the Norse (Viking was just an occupation, not a people), that Space Wolves and Fenrisians, have a rich, artistic, inventive culture.

No. Not even close. There's no real-world bias against the pseudo-Viking culture of the Space Wolves.

I'm sure, like the Norse (Viking was just an occupation, not a people), that Space Wolves and Fenrisians, have a rich, artistic, inventive culture.

It doesn't, because the planet of Fenris is geologically unstable. Every few years it passes through a meteor shower in the Fenris System which causes massive storms and raining stones and fire to fall from the skies, destroying the islands the people live on, forcing them to pack up, move, find new islands that are rising out of the oceans, kill the other Fenrisians who are trying to move onto the same rock, and then set up camp again.

Fenris has no permanent settlements other than the Fang.

There is much more depth of culture in both instances than many people see. However, for attempts at hyperbole, taunting,or humor, they keep with the uneducated, undisciplined savages motif.

Which is not present in Fenrisian culture. They are stereotypical Vikings. Savage drinkers, hunters, boasters, tellers of tales, bedders of women, and fond of ribald jokes. This is the content presented to us by GW.

Most importantly? It doesn't have anything to do with their culture, or with the fictional real-world culture they are a parody of. Disliking the Space Wolves is directly related to actions the Chapter has been stated as being involved in. It has everything to do with how the Space Wolves have been presented in the First War of Armageddon, the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy following the Edict of Nikea, and their actions during the Badab War.