Chaos Dwarfs Iron Daemon charging

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**Evertras**

Had a bit of a disagreement with my friend on how movement works. I was of the opinion that the only way you could charge was with the steam engine employed, which means you could only charge forward in a straight line from where it started. He was of the opinion that since the text specifically said that any 'unintentional contact' would put it into combat, he could turn it and move 6" without the steam engine and smash into things. While the former feels heavily RAI for me, I admit the wording is pretty fuzzy. My main argument was that he'd be pretty damned intentional about smacking into my units.

Can someone help clear up RAW for this?

**nosferatu1001**

You have no permission to move within 1" of an enemy, except through charging (or compulsory movement, etc)

So, no, you cannot do this.

**DukeRustfield**

Whew, I had to think about this, but I think you're right. It was written before 8th, but it seems to imply that you roll 2D6+M for all charges, double 1 = no move. And no wheels or turns allowed. Even as a lone unit, which is addressed in the BRB, it doesn't get free pivots but has to wheel, and ID doesn't get wheels during charges.

Still, it can move and shoot and has infinite pivots as a lone model. Just not while charging/marching where it can only go straight. It's a train, not a sports car.

**Evertras**

It's weird, isn't it? Also, I should've done this in the first place, but here's the rule section regarding movement for the unit under Lumbering and Unstoppable:

The Iron Daemon is a mighty, smoke-belching powerhouse; slow but incredibly hard to stop. It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so. Alternately, it may choose to engage its steam boiler’s power and move faster, but this is hardly a precise art. In this case, rather than using the normal rules for charging or marching, roll 2D6 and unless a double 1 is rolled then add this number to the Iron Daemon’s movement score for the total distance travelled. The Iron Daemon moves this distance forward in a straight line and may not turn or wield as it does so. If a double 1 is rolled, then something has gone wrong and the Iron Daemon does not move at all this turn.

If a charge is being attempted, this must be declared as normal before the extra movement amount is rolled, and if failed (ie, the distance rolled for movement is insufficient to reach the target unit), simply move the Iron Daemon forward the rolled distance instead. If the total movement would bring the Iron Daemon into contact with a unit unintentionally (ie, not as the result of a declared charge), roll for impact hits as normal. The Iron Daemon does not count as charging if the unit is an enemy, and its enemy gains the Always Strikes First rule against it for the first turn of combat owing to the confusion on board. If by some error it strikes a friendly unit, resolve the impact hits and then move the Iron Daemon back 1" after the collision.

In each round of an on-going combat after the first, the Iron Daemon may make a Thunderstomp attack exactly like a monster to reflect it grinding over its victims with its bulk and power. Iron Daemons cannot overrun or pursue in combat if they destroy or rout their foes.

It's made after eighth for sure, as it talks about Thunderstomps. Or maybe they wrote the first part before eighth and tacked it on?

**HawaiiMatt**

Here's my take.
The Steam rule does allow accidental charges, which would be an enemy you hit without declaring a charge against.

Lets say you have an enemy 15" away, strait ahead. You don't really want to charge them, and an enemy 23" away that you want to shoot at.
Your options are:
1: Try and charge normally, rolling 2D6+3.
2: Move 3" and shoot, being out of range of the unit you want to shoot.
3: Move 2D6+3 inches with the special rule, hoping for a total of 7+ so that you can fire the 18" range cannonade at the enemy.

If you wanted to shoot, choosing the random movement, but not declaring the charge is the best option. (if you declare a charge, you cannot fire).
Then, you roll the random movement, and if you happen to roll too high (in this example a total of 15"), you are forced into the accidental charge.

Likewise, if you are charging the Iron Engine into the front, and another unit is charging from behind, the enemy in the pinch might choose to flee, get wiped out, but then have the Iron Daemon plunging into the other chaos dwarf unit.

-Matt

**DukeRustfield**

Well, it moves 6. And it can move "up to its Move distance and" shoot without penalty.

The text then says alternately you can engage the boilers. And then says instead of using the rules for charging or marching do....

You can't shoot if you march or charge. The only text regarding shooting at all is saying it can move up to it's move distance and shoot without penalty. All the boiler stuff doesn't mention shooting at all and compares it to two situations where you can't shoot at all.

Further, he can only shoot directly ahead. Which they had FAQed to be the actual width of the model. I guess it's possible he can shoot through units or they are overlapping exactly || in front of his base width. But not likely.

**theFNGuy**

I agree with Matt's take. The Iron Daemon does not march, so using the steam engine would incur a movement penalty to shooting. In fact, it specifically says INSTEAD of using the rules for charge and march.

The rules for shooting state that you cannot shoot on a turn that you marched. The Iron Daemon does not march, therefore it can shoot with a penalty due to movement.

**DukeRustfield**

The ID says it can move up to it's full movement and shoot without penalty. It doesn't say it can use its boilers and shoot at all, penalty or not.

If you had this flexibility a unit that was 7" away could be shot at and charged. You just would say, "oh, I'm totally not trying to charge this thing, I'm merely using my boilers to move forward, even though it's impossible for me to not charge the enemy." That way you would always be able to charge and shoot. And considering it has 18" range and 6 move +2D6, it's not going to have much problems always charging and shooting. Having ASL doesn't matter much, they aren't very fast.

**HawaiiMatt**

DukeRustfield wrote:
The ID says it can move up to it's full movement and shoot without penalty. It doesn't say it can use its boilers and shoot at all, penalty or not.

If you had this flexibility a unit that was 7" away could be shot at and charged. You just would say, "oh, I'm totally not trying to charge this thing, I'm merely using my boilers to move forward, even though it's impossible for me to not charge the enemy." That way you would always be able to charge and shoot. And considering it has 18" range and 6 move +2D6, it's not going to have much problems always charging and shooting. Having ASL doesn't matter much, they aren't very fast.

The Cannonade isn't listed as move or fire, so you can move and fire, as per the basic shooting rules.
You did not march, which would disallow shooting.
You did make a special move, which is Instead of the normal movement (which is what allows the movement -1 to hit to be ignored).

You cannot Charge and Shoot. If you use the boiler and make it into combat, you cannot shoot, as units in combat cannot fire.
The big problem with the Boiler movement is that it's strait forward. You can't pivot or wheel. Picking up ASL isn't great either; but it's not a huge problem.

What's more interesting, is how boiler is written, the unit being charged see's the charge roll before they declare a reaction. Because it isn't using the "Random Movement" rule, you can react. You'll know exactly what you need to flee, making charge reactions more effective against the Iron Daemon.

**DukeRustfield**

It says it may move up to it's movement rate and fire its weapons. If you move over it's movement rate, i.e., boiler, you are not doing that. And again, it says if a charge is being attempted, this must be declared. If you're lol-boilering into something you're obviously going to hit or may hit that gets questionable. It doesn't have the rules of stopping 1" away and it's not moving in remaining/compulsory moves. You're supposed to be able to charge and I assume, react. It's not a berserk mangler squig, it's a gigantic train.

As for the reaction, those aren't mutually-exclusive. You declare charge as normal before roll (normal) then it says if failed, you just move forward. But that doesn't imply you roll before the enemy reacts. In fact if you want to treat it like that the enemy can't react at all because it's not mentioned. I believe it works exactly the same as a normal charge except the failed charge is moved forward the total boiler distance.

There would basically be no reason to declare a charge ever, as it would stop shooting if you failed, and you would always say every charge was "unintentional." That doesn't jive with the Most Important Rule. Or make much sense.

Not sure, but I thought the old FAQ stated it could fire in CC, but maybe I'm wrong.

**HawaiiMatt**

It says it may move up to it's movement rate and fire its weapons. If you move over it's movement rate, i.e., boiler, you are not doing that.

Actually, it says that:
"It may move normally up to its Move distance and fire its weapons without penalty while doing so."

If you move beyond it's normal movement, but still don't march, you can still fire, you just do so at the normal -1 to hit for moving.
You don't need permission to move and fire, the basic shooting rules give you that.
You do need permission to March and Fire, but the Boiling isn't a march maneuver.

-Matt