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So I was thinking the other day about a lot of threads that terminators can basically do whatever mutilators do, making it mostly unnecessary to take them over terminators. What is it exactly they can do better, ranged options? Ok, but if you're taking mutilators you're not too worried about range. Deep Striking? Ok, ill give you that one haha. When looking at melee options though, I realize the termies are far more customizable, but can lose focus if you throw in too many different weapons I think, whereas mutilators can all take the weapon needed for thr situation ( anti tank or anti troop) without losing effectiveness against said target. That is to say, one terminator with a chainfist out of a five man squad against a tank or three mutilators. More chances to wreck it I would think. I know the small squad size isn't the best and not getting their ride as a dedicated transport, but they have a potential for a lot of attacks.
Paired with a land raider w/ dirge casters and maybe a biomancy sorc for endurance could be nice. Throw some plasma armed marine or chosen squad in rhinos along side the raider, run up, pop smoke, if all pans out move up drop plasma squads and sorc/mutilators in front of something scary, soak it in plasma and charge with mutilators. Not sure that could be that bad...

Anyways, why is it that termies can do that sort of tactic better than mutilators?
Thanks!
-CotW

Terminators are far cheaper, and can kill more per point then Mutilators in assault, still use range, and have most of the same benefits and can take some better ones for cheaper.

Mutilators won't kill enough per point in assault without being swarmed, the problem is they needed more attacks then they have, not to mention that contrite rule about not using the same weapon twice.

Mutilators provide a better density of Wounds than Terminators do which can be useful if you intend to roll them in a Land Raider. Similarly the Mark of Nurgle is much more efficient when applied to a Mutilator because it protects 2 Wounds instead of 1, protects against Instant Death and still costs the same.
Mutilators also have a big advantage in that they can be taken as individuals. A lone Mutilator hits the sweet spot of being cheap enough that you can fling him into Deep Strike and not really care if he Mishaps, but still being potentially dangerous that he demands an answer to remove him before he gets chopping. Terminators used in the same role would cost twice as much and ultimately, not twice as difficult to remove.
Mutilators have the advantage of always having the best weapon available. Terminators are stuck with a set choice, but come with more attacks for your investment so they don't tend to notice.

Suicidal fire-and-forget Deep Strikes
Mutilators- Half the unit cost, no chance for panic, smaller footprint to Mishap and guaranteed to have the right weapon to threaten something. More wounds for your investment.
Terminators- Can shoot upon landing and don't need to survive the landing to deal damage, more attacks if you survive the response. Requires twice the investment however.

Fighting units
Mutilators- More wounds to fit into a Land Raider, cheaper investment, completely unsuitable if their ride is shot down
Terminators- More attacks, ranged presence, able to operate on foot even if the ride is destroyed.

 The Cry of the Wind wrote:


Anyways, why is it that termies can do that sort of tactic better than mutilators?
Thanks!
-CotW

Because mutilators are bad. They are just plain terrible. Kelly, the author of the codex, just made a terrible unit, ala mandrakes.

There are some people who like the idea of a single MoN mutilator DSing behind the enemy lines and hopefully disrupting things.

There are some people who like the 3 mutes + Chaos lord + other character in a land raider because it packs more attacks into your 5 LR slots than a CL and 4 terminators but even then, the terminators are cheaper, more versitile, and more powerful in some way.

I think the muties are more of a threat unit then an actual strike unit.

They cost alot, and can't do anything until they reach melee (what wont be easy) so on paper, they are not very effiecet on actually killing.

However-they force attention to them, as they can wipe out most things they strike with their "weapon by need" rules, and take quite some effort to kill (especially when marked by nurgel)

The termies are there as an all-purpose strike squad that can shoot, punch and get things done. (not quite well, but that's their ideal)
The muties just force the enemy to respond to them, giving the rest of the army time to do their thing. (or, if they get melee, brake pretty much anyone)

Mozzamanx wrote:

Fighting units
Mutilators- More wounds to fit into a Land Raider, cheaper investment, completely unsuitable if their ride is shot down
Terminators- More attacks, ranged presence, able to operate on foot even if the ride is destroyed.

Terminators also have a champion, so when escorting a Chaos Lord or other beat stick, you can have him accept or make the challenge. Mutliators fail as a retinue because they cannot protect their IC or at least keep him from fighting IG sergeants all day.

Pretty much what's been covered.

Here is how I break the advantages across both sides.

With Termies, you can shoot, you'll probably have more bodies in your squad, and you can kit them out however you want (which could be both a + and -)

With Mutilators, they're just a sore thumb stuck out to infect the first person who grabs hold. They can also be distracting in that most players probably aren't afraid of a Mutilator until they have to worry about it throwing its arms around.

Because density is such an issue, here is one more thing I would kit a Mutilator towards over a Termie squad.

Since Mutilators are packing all these great CCW's, they're stout and considerably less DPS than the above Termies, I would probably use them as Vehicle-Squad hunters, and here is what I mean.

You're only getting 2 or 3 attacks on the charge. So making sure those attacks hit something important is...important. I think this is better for crap like Honor Guards and IG Command Squads since they're more likely to hide away than anything else, so what I feel like a Mutilator is good for is deep striking out of LOS near a command squad (let's say they're in a chimera for all intents and purposes)

3-4 Chainfist shots on that Chimera seem a lot more likely to break the tin can apart and leave the squishies inside vulnerable to a dual lightning claw rake as opposed to charging into a 30 man squad of flash lights that are all going to Overwatch the sh!zzle out of you.

At least in this scenario, especially with being out of LOS, you could force that important unit away from you and into (let's say a Heldrake coming in the next turn?) or perhaps force infantry to get between their commander and the mutilator.

So while I reeeeeally hate Mutilators, especially when you put them against say....Obliterators? They're not entirely useless. Just mostly.

I'd say they're better for trying to push the chess pieces around the board, rather than using them to take knights and queens. Then again, in my above example, tormenting a command squad with a Mutilator seems completely do-able. XD

While we are on the subject it is worth mentioning that while a Mutilator's best role is to Deep Strike and demand attention, it's generally a role that is much better served by Obliterators if you can spare the small cost to upgrade.
A Power Fist with 2 Attacks is still scary enough to threaten anything without AV14 on the rear, and generally there are few targets that a Mutilator will handle that cannot be killed by an Obliterator in combat. However, you'd then also have a choice of seriously impressive firepower to lay down upon arrival, so it's the best of both really: The threat of Termicide at Mutilator costs.

Mozzamanx wrote:
While we are on the subject it is worth mentioning that while a Mutilator's best role is to Deep Strike and demand attention, it's generally a role that is much better served by Obliterators if you can spare the small cost to upgrade.
A Power Fist with 2 Attacks is still scary enough to threaten anything without AV14 on the rear, and generally there are few targets that a Mutilator will handle that cannot be killed by an Obliterator in combat. However, you'd then also have a choice of seriously impressive firepower to lay down upon arrival, so it's the best of both really: The threat of Termicide at Mutilator costs.

a powerfist with 2 attacks isnt really ever going to happen

you are going to charge, so you will have 3 attacks. Hitting on 3+ most likely. 2 hits and maybe a pen does something(maybe)

if you are in combat with a dread, you might not have gotten the charge, and are probably dead as the dread will attack first and ID you.

against a landraider or fortification you really do not have much of a shot

a mutilator on the other hand gets 3(4) attacks with a chainfist. This will have a chance against fortifications or a landraider. A problem is you can only morph the chainfists every other round, so you become completely useless the next round.

 Exergy wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
While we are on the subject it is worth mentioning that while a Mutilator's best role is to Deep Strike and demand attention, it's generally a role that is much better served by Obliterators if you can spare the small cost to upgrade.
A Power Fist with 2 Attacks is still scary enough to threaten anything without AV14 on the rear, and generally there are few targets that a Mutilator will handle that cannot be killed by an Obliterator in combat. However, you'd then also have a choice of seriously impressive firepower to lay down upon arrival, so it's the best of both really: The threat of Termicide at Mutilator costs.

a powerfist with 2 attacks isnt really ever going to happen

you are going to charge, so you will have 3 attacks. Hitting on 3+ most likely. 2 hits and maybe a pen does something(maybe)

if you are in combat with a dread, you might not have gotten the charge, and are probably dead as the dread will attack first and ID you.

against a landraider or fortification you really do not have much of a shot

a mutilator on the other hand gets 3(4) attacks with a chainfist. This will have a chance against fortifications or a landraider. A problem is you can only morph the chainfists every other round, so you become completely useless the next round.

Problem is, the Obliterator can fire off a melta gun and charge, or a better weapon in general.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
While we are on the subject it is worth mentioning that while a Mutilator's best role is to Deep Strike and demand attention, it's generally a role that is much better served by Obliterators if you can spare the small cost to upgrade.
A Power Fist with 2 Attacks is still scary enough to threaten anything without AV14 on the rear, and generally there are few targets that a Mutilator will handle that cannot be killed by an Obliterator in combat. However, you'd then also have a choice of seriously impressive firepower to lay down upon arrival, so it's the best of both really: The threat of Termicide at Mutilator costs.

a powerfist with 2 attacks isnt really ever going to happen

you are going to charge, so you will have 3 attacks. Hitting on 3+ most likely. 2 hits and maybe a pen does something(maybe)

if you are in combat with a dread, you might not have gotten the charge, and are probably dead as the dread will attack first and ID you.

against a landraider or fortification you really do not have much of a shot

a mutilator on the other hand gets 3(4) attacks with a chainfist. This will have a chance against fortifications or a landraider. A problem is you can only morph the chainfists every other round, so you become completely useless the next round.

Problem is, the Obliterator can fire off a melta gun and charge, or a better weapon in general.

O i agree

 Exergy wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
While we are on the subject it is worth mentioning that while a Mutilator's best role is to Deep Strike and demand attention, it's generally a role that is much better served by Obliterators if you can spare the small cost to upgrade.
A Power Fist with 2 Attacks is still scary enough to threaten anything without AV14 on the rear, and generally there are few targets that a Mutilator will handle that cannot be killed by an Obliterator in combat. However, you'd then also have a choice of seriously impressive firepower to lay down upon arrival, so it's the best of both really: The threat of Termicide at Mutilator costs.

a powerfist with 2 attacks isnt really ever going to happen

you are going to charge, so you will have 3 attacks. Hitting on 3+ most likely. 2 hits and maybe a pen does something(maybe)

if you are in combat with a dread, you might not have gotten the charge, and are probably dead as the dread will attack first and ID you.

against a landraider or fortification you really do not have much of a shot

a mutilator on the other hand gets 3(4) attacks with a chainfist. This will have a chance against fortifications or a landraider. A problem is you can only morph the chainfists every other round, so you become completely useless the next round.

The point is that the Mutilator is equally boned when fighting that Dreadnought. Any advantage he gains from morphing Chainfists, would be nullified by the Obliterators ability to generate Meltaguns. However the Obliterator has the advantage of getting the first shot in, while the Mutilator doesn't get to do anything until after the opponents reaction. The Mutilator also has no ability to deal with certain targets, with Dreads or high-Initiative Monsters being a prime example, while the Obliterator should always get at least one shot with a tailored weapon.

Mutilators unfortunately do not do their job very well. They need considerable resources to make them worthwhile in their CC oriented role and even if taken as a suicide unit, they're ability to effect the battle can end very quickly without them doing a darn thing.

Terminators can do something when suicide deep striking and Spawn are a much better bodyguard unit for HQs (and can move faster without a ride!). Mutilators competing against that do not seem like the optimal choice at all.

I love mutilators honestly. 183 points for 3 with MoN is nice. They make great character escorts or just ride in a landraider by themselves. Never tried DSing but maybe that could work.

If you go MoK they have 5 attacks each on the charge...