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So on thursday I have my third battle of 40k against a Chaos Space Marine Opponent.

How should I configure my armylist and what should I expect or fear from him. I was totally annihilated in my last 1850 point battle so I'm hoping to get some input.

I have 4 HQ's at my disposal:

Belial
Azrael
Sammael
Librarian on a Bike

and I have from the space marines

Jump Pack Chaplain
Captain / CM still in sprues

and these units:

9 Ravenwing bikes (2 Melta's, 2 Plasma's)
1 Attack Bike (MM)
1 Landspeeder Typhoon (MM)

5 Black Knight (Command Squad with apothecary but can be used as knights)

15 Terminators (4 TH/SS, 2LC, 1CF, 1 AC, 3 Storm bolters, 4 still in sprues)

Tacticals
16 with boltguns
2 with PC
1 with LC
1 with HB
1 with ML
1 with Flamer
1 with Plasma gun
1 with Melta gun
10 marines with no weapons yet (arms still in sprues)
4 Sergeants
1 with Plasma pistol chainsword
1 with plasma pistol PF
2 with chainsword

5 Assault Marines with chainswords

5 Company Veterans (ML, PG, SB, PS)

1 Dreadnought (TL LC, AC, PF/HF, ML)

1 Land Raider regular
1 Rhino (with convertion parts for a Whirlwind)
1 Razorback (still in sprues)

1 Storm Raven (MM, AC, Hurricane Bolters)
1 Stormtalon (AC, Skyhammer Missles)


I have no idea what I must fear from him besides his Helldrakes, which is why I'm considering running a Storm Raven and a Storm Talon along side my Ravenwing Army but I can't say if that is wise. This is not a army list topic but rather a topic to find guidelines for a beginner in a 40k environment as I don't want to lose horribly again. I keep catching myself building lists and each I find just as awesome as the next. I miss the knowledge to see context in these lists and therefore I can't make up my mind what to play. Can something compettive be build from these pieces or at least not getting massacred.

Sorry if this is to much to ask.

Barnie25

Is this the 3rd game against the same opponent? If so, what did he bring in the past, aside from Heldrakes? I'm not very familiar with your 6th ed 'dex but here are some general comments:

Regarding Heldrakes: The Flyers should be useful against them, and I recommend bringing both since you don't have a ADL with quad-gun/skyfire, etc. You need some reliable anti-Heldrake @ 1850 I can see someone bringing 2-3 easily (I bring 1, but I play a semi-fluffy list).

The Heldrakes will almost certainly be equipped with baleflamers, unless he brings 3 in which case he may have the autocannon on 1 for anti-air. If he does, that drake needs to be the first priority for your flyers! The baleflamer cannot be used against air vehicles, so he can only vector strike your flyers. Vector strike is str7 ap3, so it can hurt but he needs to fly over your unit to make it happen. Watch your positioning and remember than he is restricted to one turn up to 90 degrees per movement phase. Try to get in behind and take advantage of AV10 rear armor.

Minimize the potential damage from the baleflamers by using all three vehicles. I would put a "kill team" of termies+Belial in the LR and use it to punch a hole in the heart of his army. Unload and get into combat with some TH/SS termies. Once you are in combat he cannot baleflame you. Termies with 2+ armor save have the best chance of surviving a baleflamer strike anyway.

Use the rhino and razorback to get tacticals into good positions. I recommend a squad of 10 in the rhino, with 1 PC and 1 PG for some low AP firepower. Rhino rushes to midfield objectives, camp them inside until the Heldrakes pass over and you are out of baleflamer damage radius (remember 12" torrent). Use the two fire points on the rhino to shoot PG + bolter in addition to rhino storm bolter.

Razorback should camp backfield objectives with 5 man squad (1 plasma pistol, flamer preferred if it is allowed in your 'dex) and use long-range weapon to bring firepower to midfield targets. Razorback provides some measure of protection and you disembark to answer deep-strike threats in your backfield. Make this team good for assault, as there are only 5 of them. Dreadnought stays in backfield providing missile/lascannon/assult cannon fire support, too.

Bikes are a good choice to get into assault quickly, keeping baleflamers from doing too much damage. Libby on the bike is a good force multiplier, too. I would bring anti-vehicle with this squad, Meltas and plasmas. You may have some tough decisions to either hit vehicles or get into assault based on where threats are coming from. Flexibility is good here.

Any remaining foot troops, I would bring termies. Expensive yes, but Armor save 2+ prevents ID from baleflamer, and your foot troops will be exposed. Maybe LC/AC termies in a squad. Unlikely footslogging termies will get into assault, so concentrate on firepower for this group.

Last general recommendation is to take full advantage of your 2" squad coherency allowance, and do not put your troops into nice neat rows where the flamer template can pick off 4-5 at a time! Use a staggered formation so that there is no clean line of fire. With torrent weapons, he can rotate the template pretty much how he wants (fat end cannot be closer to drake than narrow end), so he will get creative about trying to find a line of troops to scorch.

Anyhow, these are my general thoughts as a Chaos player looking at your list.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
-Aeglos

aeglos wrote:
Is this the 3rd game against the same opponent? If so, what did he bring in the past, aside from Heldrakes? I'm not very familiar with your 6th ed 'dex but here are some general comments:

Regarding Heldrakes: The Flyers should be useful against them, and I recommend bringing both since you don't have a ADL with quad-gun/skyfire, etc. You need some reliable anti-Heldrake @ 1850 I can see someone bringing 2-3 easily (I bring 1, but I play a semi-fluffy list).

The Heldrakes will almost certainly be equipped with baleflamers, unless he brings 3 in which case he may have the autocannon on 1 for anti-air. If he does, that drake needs to be the first priority for your flyers! The baleflamer cannot be used against air vehicles, so he can only vector strike your flyers. Vector strike is str7 ap3, so it can hurt but he needs to fly over your unit to make it happen. Watch your positioning and remember than he is restricted to one turn up to 90 degrees per movement phase. Try to get in behind and take advantage of AV10 rear armor.

Minimize the potential damage from the baleflamers by using all three vehicles. I would put a "kill team" of termies+Belial in the LR and use it to punch a hole in the heart of his army. Unload and get into combat with some TH/SS termies. Once you are in combat he cannot baleflame you. Termies with 2+ armor save have the best chance of surviving a baleflamer strike anyway.

Use the rhino and razorback to get tacticals into good positions. I recommend a squad of 10 in the rhino, with 1 PC and 1 PG for some low AP firepower. Rhino rushes to midfield objectives, camp them inside until the Heldrakes pass over and you are out of baleflamer damage radius (remember 12" torrent). Use the two fire points on the rhino to shoot PG + bolter in addition to rhino storm bolter.

Razorback should camp backfield objectives with 5 man squad (1 plasma pistol, flamer preferred if it is allowed in your 'dex) and use long-range weapon to bring firepower to midfield targets. Razorback provides some measure of protection and you disembark to answer deep-strike threats in your backfield. Make this team good for assault, as there are only 5 of them. Dreadnought stays in backfield providing missile/lascannon/assult cannon fire support, too.

Bikes are a good choice to get into assault quickly, keeping baleflamers from doing too much damage. Libby on the bike is a good force multiplier, too. I would bring anti-vehicle with this squad, Meltas and plasmas. You may have some tough decisions to either hit vehicles or get into assault based on where threats are coming from. Flexibility is good here.

Any remaining foot troops, I would bring termies. Expensive yes, but Armor save 2+ prevents ID from baleflamer, and your foot troops will be exposed. Maybe LC/AC termies in a squad. Unlikely footslogging termies will get into assault, so concentrate on firepower for this group.

Last general recommendation is to take full advantage of your 2" squad coherency allowance, and do not put your troops into nice neat rows where the flamer template can pick off 4-5 at a time! Use a staggered formation so that there is no clean line of fire. With torrent weapons, he can rotate the template pretty much how he wants (fat end cannot be closer to drake than narrow end), so he will get creative about trying to find a line of troops to scorch.

Anyhow, these are my general thoughts as a Chaos player looking at your list.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out!
-Aeglos

This will be my 3rd battle in total, I've never met him so I don't know what he'll bring but I guess the helldrakes will be a part of his army, so I gotta get my bases covered against them.

Belial can precesion strike, that means DS with no scatter so I will use that on turn 2 to hit.

In the Land Raider I will put 5 Hammernators with Belial DS with a heavy flamer behind enemy lines.

Then probably a Rhino and a Razorback and two fliers. That will probably be 1850 points.

Edit: this is the list probably

Dark Angels
HQ
Belial Deathwing Assault turn 1 with squad A
Troops
Deathwing Terminator Squad A 245
5 Terminators
1 TH / SS
1 HF
1 Chainfist
Deathwing Terminator Squad B 240
5 Terminators
4 TH / SS
1 Powers Sword
Land Raider 250

Space Marines
Storm Raven 230
TL AC
TL MM
Storm Talon 125
Skyhammer Missles
Captain 145
The Primarch Wrath
Artificer Armor
Power Axe
Tactical Marine Squad A 216
9 Marines
PC
PG
PF
Rhino
Tactical Squad B 184
6 Marines
LC
PG
Razorback
TL LC

bring in some DWK (if your allowed to proxy) as they shine the most against chaos :3. I have found that a DW army does extremely well vs chaos, as, they all have preferred enemy and are basically immune to the best unit that chaos has, baledrakes.

I'm probably not going to proxy but I could bring a 3 squad of termi's that along with the air support should be ample to fight him off I would imagine.

I suggest dropping primarchs wrath unless you are putting your captain on a bike. also the PFs are not worth it on the Sgts. take a combi weapon instead, as you don't want to get into melee with much. (exceptions are tau, eldar, and IG troops) and for those a PF would just get challenged. (and promptly killed)

I say make your LR a deathwing vehicle, as I do not recall any restrictions on them having to be a DT for that. (the effect it gives is usually VERY worth the points. rerolls are nice, so are forcing rerolls)

 raiden wrote:
I suggest dropping primarchs wrath unless you are putting your captain on a bike. also the PFs are not worth it on the Sgts. take a combi weapon instead, as you don't want to get into melee with much. (exceptions are tau, eldar, and IG troops) and for those a PF would just get challenged. (and promptly killed)

I say make your LR a deathwing vehicle, as I do not recall any restrictions on them having to be a DT for that. (the effect it gives is usually VERY worth the points. rerolls are nice, so are forcing rerolls)

This leaves me with 30 points, all transport vehicles except the raven filled but I don't really want units in that one. Maybe upgrade the captain to a CM?

that's a good idea, you get an attack and a wound I believe. good deal imo (also gets you a orbital bombardment which, if on a bike he can shoot on the move)

The extra wound could come in handy, I tried fitting a third terminator squad in here but my model count would then become to low for my liking so hopefully this will workout!

And as for which CT I have to use, I was thinking of running it irons hands, FnP +6 army wide and ITND for the vehicles.

Bring dw knights....they are amazing against chaos. Make everything DW vehicles. Take advantage of your special "hate chaos rules" Bane of the traitor.....AWESOME

If I had any knights I would have insta brought them, as I don't have them its gonna be a bit hard. Proxien them is not real cool, or at least I try to minimize it or could you run Hammernators as knights?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would it be better to add 5 terminators with a CML and bring the tacticals down?

 Barnie25 wrote:
If I had any knights I would have insta brought them, as I don't have them its gonna be a bit hard. Proxien them is not real cool, or at least I try to minimize it or could you run Hammernators as knights?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would it be better to add 5 terminators with a CML and bring the tacticals down?

I actually suggest that, except drop the CML and take a PC. remember to outfit all of your DW squads with 1 TH/SS

Is one invurnerable save per squad enough?

Edit:

And to save points I could take a lvl 1 Librarian as allied HQ in a 5 man scout squad that will ride the raven till turn 3 so that they can steal an objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If I take a regular captain with a scout squad and put them in the raven, I could field a Dreadnought with TL LC and a ML to make up for the tacticals I've lost.