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2013/11/19 13:03:21
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
She's absolutely correct on the unfortunate implications; men are default, women are the "other", and how annoying it is to have "slap a bow on it" as the default idea for distinguishing female characters in many games.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/19 13:48:21
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
I swear someday I will make up a small space marine force, and if anybody asks just say "By the way they're all female. You just can't tell under the armor".
Not sure if that would be good or bad according to the material given...
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2013/11/19 14:14:54
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
I'd be okay with it, but then again, I don't really care about marines anyway.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/19 14:22:03
Subject: Re:Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
See, but there are two ways of looking at these sorts of things;
Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
Slight tangent, but Wonder Woman was herself originally a male character, but whom the writer was convinced should be turned into a woman (By his wife). And let's face it, Wonder Woman wasn't anywhere near as good of a character when she started because of it (Hands get bound by a man, no powers for you!")
If the Koopas/Scribblenauts hadn't had a single female, it would have caused her to complain just as much.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/19 23:47:22
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
Why do you consider these separate questions?
Lazy game design is why male characters are the default, AND lazy game design is why when someone asks for a female character, they just alter a male character to get her put in instead of putting forth any real effort. Trying to hate women for wanting to be included is silly.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/19 23:55:22
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/19 23:56:06
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
Why do you consider these separate questions?
Lazy game design is why male characters are the default, AND lazy game design is why when someone asks for a female character, they just alter a male character to get her put in instead of putting forth any real effort.
Is it lazy, or is it due to the time crunch/finances/what have you?
No matter what, if I was told I had twenty minutes to fix a game breaking bug AND put a female character in, I would probably devote two to the female, eighteen to the bug, and even then I would think those two minutes are wasted time.
Edit: Oddly enough, no one actually hates women. There is a reason why Metroid and Tomb Raider succeeded, and it wasn't because they were good "despite having female leads".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/19 23:57:57
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/19 23:58:05
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Then stop being bitter because women want to be included as something more than eye candy. You're laying the blame on female gamers for wanting to be included.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/19 23:58:56
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:01:53
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Then stop being bitter because women want to be included as something more than eye candy.
Do you even retain the information from each of these threads? I have argued CONSTANTLY FOR women to be included in games. In EVERY. SINGLE. "Tropes vs Women". THREAD that pops up.
Stop being so defensive and pay attention to the arguments, please. You won't win any popularity contests if you have a "US VS THEM! WOMENS ARE THE MASTER RACE!".....
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 00:03:05
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Do you even retain the information from each of these threads? I have argued CONSTANTLY FOR women to be included in games. In EVERY. SINGLE. "Tropes vs Women". THREAD that pops up.
And yet here you are in this thread saying "this is all happening because women want to be able to play women characters".
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:04:16
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Do you even retain the information from each of these threads? I have argued CONSTANTLY FOR women to be included in games. In EVERY. SINGLE. "Tropes vs Women". THREAD that pops up.
And yet here you are in this thread saying "this is all happening because women want to be able to play women characters".
So you can play as the female Koopa, eh?
And I didn't, in my very first post, say that everyone loves Metroid and Tomb Raider?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 00:05:23
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 00:06:40
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
This kind of blaming is annoying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 00:07:15
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:08:38
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
Yup, because EVERY game deserves a female character.
Duke Nukem would be SO AWESOME playing as a woman.
Yup, because I'm blaming women.
And obviously not the big wig EA Moneybags who say "Put a woman in here, just because!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 00:09:44
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 00:17:30
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Yup, because EVERY game deserves a female character.
From my perspective, yes. It would be better than what we currently have; IE, 99% of all games have you play as a male or make men the default from which women are derived.
Slarg232 wrote: Duke Nukem would be SO AWESOME playing as a woman.
... actually yes, it would. You'd basically be playing as Starbuck from the Battlestar Galactica remake, and I'd be okay with that!
Or better yet, she'd basically be a renegade lesbian Shepard from ME3 That would be hilarious and awesome.
And obviously not the big wig EA Moneybags who say "Put a woman in here, just because!"
Then why exactly are you arguing against me when I say "it's lazy because they aren't including women from the start"?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/20 00:23:33
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:23:56
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Yup, because EVERY game deserves a female character.
From my perspective, yes. It would be better than what we currently have; IE, 99% of all games have you play as a male or make men the default from which women are derived.
Slarg232 wrote: Duke Nukem would be SO AWESOME playing as a woman.
... actually yes, it would. You'd basically be playing as Starbuck from the Battlestar Galactica remake, and I'd be okay with that!
You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway, so the industry can't be too wrong about how they are doing what they do, since they are turning a massive profit.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 00:25:39
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway
Considering how many people try to criticize me specifically for skipping the purchase of games when the reason I give is because said games exclude female characters, I'll take your criticism and ignore the hell out of it.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:26:27
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Duke Nukem would be SO AWESOME playing as a woman.
... actually yes, it would. You'd basically be playing as Starbuck from the Battlestar Galactica remake, and I'd be okay with that!
Or better yet, she'd basically be a renegade lesbian Shepard from ME3 That would be hilarious and awesome.
You know, I'd really enjoy playing an over the top crazy FPS with a super aggressive hard drinking female lead (Jack from Mass Effect 2 gets her own game). I think it would be kind of fun and a great change of pace...
but then if that happened I'm guessing people would complain that the game "portrayed women in a negative way" and "catered to the sexual fantasies of immature male gamers". You just can't win sometimes.
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
2013/11/20 00:28:46
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
dementedwombat wrote: You know, I'd really enjoy playing an over the top crazy FPS with a super aggressive hard drinking female lead (Jack from Mass Effect 2 gets her own game). I think it would be kind of fun and a great change of pace...
Oh hell yes, Jack would be so badass to play as.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:48:11
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway
Considering how many people try to criticize me specifically for skipping the purchase of games when the reason I give is because said games exclude female characters, I'll take your criticism and ignore the hell out of it.
Probably because nobody really needs to know nor do people care.
2013/11/20 00:51:08
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Probably because nobody really needs to know nor do people care.
Apparently, they do care, considering how offended they are by the notion.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 00:57:44
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
They care so little they complain and stomp their feet every time someone brings up the subject, going so far as to vilify and mock the people who discuss it. If only we could all be so apathetic.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2013/11/20 01:01:33
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway
Considering how many people try to criticize me specifically for skipping the purchase of games when the reason I give is because said games exclude female characters, I'll take your criticism and ignore the hell out of it.
But you buy every game with a female character, right?
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 01:02:38
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway
Considering how many people try to criticize me specifically for skipping the purchase of games when the reason I give is because said games exclude female characters, I'll take your criticism and ignore the hell out of it.
But you buy every game with a female character, right?
When I can afford it, I try to buy games with playable female characters. When I can't afford much, I do so exclusively.
Which means I skip over the majority of releases. Deus Ex: Human Revolution, for example-- still don't have it. Still not getting it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/20 01:03:51
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/11/20 01:04:10
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: You're perspective means jack gak, honestly. You buy games anyway
Considering how many people try to criticize me specifically for skipping the purchase of games when the reason I give is because said games exclude female characters, I'll take your criticism and ignore the hell out of it.
But you buy every game with a female character, right?
When I can afford it, I try to buy games with playable female characters. When I can't afford much, I do so exclusively.
Which means I skip over the majority of releases.
I'm so glad you buy Barbie's Horse Adventures. Clearly you like high quality, unsexist representations of your gender.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2013/11/20 01:19:38
Subject: Re:Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Melissa can you name me some examples of commercially successful games that feature the type of women you want to see in games, whether as central protagonists or as tertiary characters? The female imperial guard chick comes to mind from space Marine, though I'm not sure that game was profitable. So I'm wondering what makes you think that your demands you have are reasonable or even feasible?
2013/11/20 01:43:32
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
I fully agree with Anita here. It is sad that males are the default and females are the deviance. It is so ingrained into our culture I honestly couldn't come up with the answer for the "The son goes the hospital and the mom is the doctor" joke. And I consider myself to be progressive at the very least.
She actually brought up a point I had never considered before: Because female characters have to be female in design, they are overall stunted in terms of what can be done with them.
I still dislike her, though.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/20 01:57:57
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2013/11/20 02:03:17
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Slarg232 wrote: Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?
This kind of blaming is annoying.
Who was being blamed for anything here? Seems like he was criticising people putting female characters in just for the sake of putting them in he never said these people saying put a female character in it doesn't matter how was a woman. Not that he was criticising the desire for female characters to be in games. Nothing about what Slarg said involved hating women for being included, I have no idea where you got that from.
There is certainly a problem with female representation in games. Women are often eye candy or not included at all and this is a problem. This doesn't mean they should be a playable character in every game though, neither should men.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/20 02:06:57
2013/11/20 02:07:43
Subject: Tropes vs Women: Ms Male Character and the Smurfette Principle
Hmmm...I can see it now. A hard drinking cigar smoking lady mercenary who keeps butting heads with a smooth James Bond style government representative on evrey mission and always just beating him to the intel/sabotaging his mission.
At the end he realizes he's actually started doing his job more to impress her than to actually care about his country. He agrees to defect, join her merc outfit, and cleans her guns before each mission (great ending cutscene material there)
I would play the HELL out of that game.
EDIT: Bonus points if at the character has to infiltrate a fancy formal dinner at some point, and the main antagonist says something like "I almost didn't recognize you...[generic expression of surprise]" and protagonist says "What, you think that because I shoot guns for a living I don't know how to put makeup on and act fancy? Guys can be so dumb sometimes!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/20 02:15:39
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote: Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man.
That would be hilarious and awesome.
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
(great ending cutscene material there)