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I very much favor pay to play at the FLGS. I just think it would be a silly policy for a GW store (though it looks like they aren't doing it). What is the incentive to go to a GW store?

Here in the US GW stores are often in stiff competition with the FLGS (assuming there is a GW in the vicinity). A GW store only sells GW products, typically has limited table space, and sells pretty hard to its customers. Stock on the shelves is almost certainly not much more comprehensive than a decent FLGS. If GW charged to play, why would there be any reason at all to chose a GW store over a FLGS, other than something like proximity?

That's my point. GW stores offer less, not more, and they exist to market GW's products and only GW's products. They don't exist to anchor a hobby community, not anymore. So if you have to pay to play, why not just pay to play at a club or a FLGS?

GW should want you in its stores and only its stores, ever. So GW should be incentivised to give you 999 reasons to visit the store, otherwise the stores are a fantastic waste of money for the company, especially in the US, where GW does not have the resources to maintain enough stores to have any meaningful retail presence.

if true I dont see the issue. Why shouldnt they do something like this?

General Hobbs wrote:

Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.

No one asked for the guys name. But some clue as to how you know the guy would have helped somewhat, someone told me is much like saying "Honest this happened to my mothers brothers sisters second cousin".

General Hobbs wrote:


Can you refute or validate this rumor? My source is someone who plays there and has posted. I'd prefer not to out his name for privacy reasons. Otherwise then, back off.

Here's a concept: Call the game store yourself and ask them. Heck, you could even *gasp* post the name and location of the store and I'm sure others would call them for you.

Simple enough.

*side note, because we may as well derail the thread: Asimov in his Foundation series stated that one factor in the downfall of society is when people stop checking facts for themselves and instead rely on the points of view of people who, also, have never checked out those "facts".. There was a sub story where a King (or equivalent) went out of his way to track down a copy of a book which discussed a particular historical "fact". Instead of simply going to the point of origin and looking for himself, (yes, the veracity of the claim was apparently easy to prove/disprove), he wasted his and everyone else's time locating this book. The book was written by an author that had also never gone to that original point to see for himself and instead had based his writings on those of yet another person who, laughingly, had also never investigated the actual "fact" but rather wrote his book based on rumor and hearsay. Of course, that seems to be the primary operating principal of the Internet...

Moral of the story: Do your own fact checking. Especially when it's as easy as picking up a phone. Second moral: don't be a troll.

Games Workshop in Cheltenham DOES do this (or at least did).

Spend a value (either 15, or 20 pounds) and you get a token. You can either then exchange this token for an hour on a gaming table (I think it's 2' by 4' so a third of a normal board), or 2 hours painting in store.

I have no idea if they continued this, but it certainly was in place a few months ago. They had a big plastic sweet/candy jar where they kept the tokens.

Some of the management in our local store was hinting at pay to play but everyone poo pood it as soon as it was mentioned. Its not good to piss off your customers if your a small store. GW gets away with it but I highly doubt a small FLGS can.

I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.

Many of us can play at our homes but the store offers a neutral ground for everyone. Plus your assuming that we as customers are all freeloaders. I actually sold 2 people on 40k the last time I was in store and encourage them to join our group. Your also assuming that your shop is necessary or the only one.

We can get our model's anywhere or game anywhere but we choose your shop because we like your store.

if ya buying from the store ya will get the tokens by default. If ya not spending in the store then why do folks think they get the automatic right to game there. Support where you game or do one freeloader

 wowsmash wrote:

I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.

Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.

The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.

nkelsch wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:

I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.

Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.

The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.

People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.

You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?

Who is Mr. Albertson?

 kronk wrote:
Who is Mr. Albertson?

http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Comic_Book_Guy

My mental picture when reading his posts.

 Grimtuff wrote:



People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.

You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?

So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.

Got it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Who is Mr. Albertson?

http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Comic_Book_Guy

My mental picture when reading his posts.

I didn't realize he actually had a name beyond Comic Book Guy!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:



People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.

You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?

So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.

Got it.

Better than spouting the same lines over and over again WRT FLGS's. It gets tiring.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:



People, please stop tugging the pull string on his back. I think he's running out of phrases.

You wouldn't really be satisfied unless every guy that came in a shop you had spent thousands of £££'s in cash then left immediately. Am I correct Mr Albertson?

So basically you have nothing useful to contribute to this discussion.

Got it.

Better than spouting the same lines over and over again WRT FLGS's. It gets tiring.

Oh my god, it's almost like discussions on similar tactics can happen more than once!

Nope. Sorry Kan. My buddy and I talked about this topic in September of 2009. We're all done here.

nkelsch wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:

I always try to buy something in the store when I go even if its a soda and some chips but still there is a line.

Almost no margin on a retail purchased food-stuff resold compared to 40% margin on 100$ of models. "I buy chips and soda" to justify your existence is the same as saying "I am a freeloader." Even the margin on hobby supplies or a paint pot is better than the snacks.

The store is not a 7-11 and is not in business to sell snacks and not being a food retailer with a distributor means they make minimal profit off those snacks, because if he was charging movie-house prices to make real profit, people wouldn't even buy the snacks. Snacks do not keep the lights on or justify the rent on the air you breathe.

Your in the business of retail. That means you serve the customer. If your store is in such distress that you have to antagonize your customers to stay afloat then that's your problem. You didn't do your homework before you started up. Just because you can afford to through around cash like it doesn't matter doesn't mean everyone else does.

Customers offer free demo's and free sells support to anyone walking in and encourages them to participate and make purchases rather than just having an empty store. If you can't do your job correctly then there are plenty of other store's that will. Instead of blaming your customers maybe you should actually discuss with them why they don't give you more business. Maybe some other location has better sales than you but no play space. It could be any number of things. There are ways to positively encourage your customer's rather than attacking them. Your store is not God's gift to wargamers.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that good GW employees are interchangeable.

No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:

"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."

None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.

But if a store dont meet its targets its closed down and said manager is out of a job

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that good GW employees are interchangeable.

No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:

"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."

None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.

I like how you left out the second part which frames my statement in context.

GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures. A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices. Those managers though are also the people who set up in store events and maintain the shop and make people want to continue coming back. It's not the fact that it is a GW store that gets people in there past their initial purchases or a cursory look at the shop. It's the managers.
To pretend that GW stores are "not individual businesses" is ridiculous. They might have a set of guidelines given to them by corporate but how strictly they are followed is based upon the manager--who in turn is adapting those guidelines based upon the community he is dealing with.

But really though, you can knock off the white knight nonsense if you want to have an actual conversation.

 Kanluwen wrote:
GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures.

And this is the "idiotic mistake" I mentioned. Treating their employees this way is stupid. If someone plays at a local GW store and buys GW products online because they have a place to play then GW is still getting sales. The store is still doing its other job of promoting the hobby (aka marketing) even if it isn't making the final sale. But instead of understanding this obvious fact GW acts like their various retail options are in competition with each other and you have local GW store employees trying to compete with everyone else selling GW products.

Now, I understand that trying to track performance based on more than just how much stuff was purchased at each individual cash register is considerably more difficult, but that's the whole problem. Yet again GW is sacrificing quality because it's easier to do it the lazy way.

A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices.

No they don't. No amount of "good managing" at a GW shop is going to get me to buy anything there, other than maybe a pot of paint that doesn't justify the cost of shipping. If I'm buying anything big enough to cover the shipping cost I'm buying it online at a discount, or at an independent store at a smaller discount and supporting a local business.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Purchases made in the store(including gift cards) and Direct only purchases made in the store for pick-up in the store count towards the store sales figures, but orders made via the GW website at home for pick up at the store do not count.

And that is just unbelievably stupid. With pickup orders you don't even have the excuse of it being difficult to track who should get credit for the sale. This is just more of the spectacular idiocy of GW competing with itself.

nkelsch wrote:
And I have seen Peregrin's comment, I disagree with its premise. In stores where tablespace is a premium, every peak time I have been to a GW, the tables are PACKED, and there are people waiting to use them.

My experience is the opposite. GW has space, the independent stores usually have space (of course one of them has enough space for 10+ wargaming tables while still running a MTG tournament).

I see nothing wrong with allowing actual customers who actually spend money to be prioritized for space.

Everyone who has spent money on GW models has spent money with GW and therefore should get equal priority. Remember, I'm talking about GW stores, not independent stores where someone buying online really is a lost sale.

 Compel wrote:
Games Workshop in Cheltenham DOES do this (or at least did).

Spend a value (either 15, or 20 pounds) and you get a token. You can either then exchange this token for an hour on a gaming table (I think it's 2' by 4' so a third of a normal board), or 2 hours painting in store.

Wow. That's just hilariously awful. Spend a non-trivial amount of money, get either a rushed "game" on a tiny table or the "privilege" of painting in a store instead of at home. I honestly can't imagine why anyone would ever willingly go into that store.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I read it and I don't agree with it. It's predicated upon the notion that good GW employees are interchangeable.

No it's not. It's pretty cut and dry:

"GW stores are not individual businesses, they're a branch of the company dedicated to providing easy local sales and a place to play (and therefore encouraging people to buy the game). It makes no sense for GW to charge for table space because no matter who you buy GW products from GW is still making a profit. It's potentially good business sense for an independent store to charge for tables because they need income to that store specifically if they want to survive, and they can potentially provide a much better gaming experience that justifies charging for table space."

None of that has anything to do with GW employees or how interchangable they are. GW stores are not independantly owned, nor are they franchised. They are part of a collective - they are chain stores. Actual indie stores are not. Disagree all you want Kan, and continue to leap in slow motion in front of every metaphorical bullet people aim at GW, but Peregrine is still 100% correct here.

I like how you left out the second part which frames my statement in context.

GW stores might not be "independently owned or franchised", but that does not mean that the employees are given the same treatment that an employee in a conventionally managed shop would in regards to salary and employee reviews. They are essentially operating under a quota system for their sales figures. A good manager at a GW shop gets you interested involved in the community at large while at the same time getting you to make purchases through the store--even at retail prices. Those managers though are also the people who set up in store events and maintain the shop and make people want to continue coming back. It's not the fact that it is a GW store that gets people in there past their initial purchases or a cursory look at the shop. It's the managers.
To pretend that GW stores are "not individual businesses" is ridiculous. They might have a set of guidelines given to them by corporate but how strictly they are followed is based upon the manager--who in turn is adapting those guidelines based upon the community he is dealing with.

But really though, you can knock off the white knight nonsense if you want to have an actual conversation.

What?

You mean all the years I worked for a company where my salary was directly related to my sales performance, and the years I was responsible for the running of a whole store and it's performance, I was secretly my own boss??!!

Why did nobody tell me? Then all those stupid edicts that came down from on high that limited my ability to do the job as I wanted could simply have been ignored! They couldn't possibly have fired me, I was self employed!

Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.

 azreal13 wrote:

Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.

The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.

The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.

The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.

The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.

No they're not.

GW stores operate on the same hours regardless. Closed monday/tuesday. Open weds to sun. The only thing that has changed is it appears the manager has control over when the late night is, as it used to be standardised to thursday, but my local's is on a weds.

 Kanluwen wrote:
The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.

The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.

That's not always true.

The GW near me and the most successful GW in Oz (until it shut down/moved elsewhere, respectively) had their hours set by the shopping centre they were in. They had to be open between X and Y hours, and on certain days of the week.

GW managers are workforce managers.

really cos our local store is closed on a sunday and open on a tuesday. And each day has the same hours.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Honestly, what you are describing Kan is just anybody with half a clue working in a retail sales job. To try and assert they are in any way akin to running your own business (and for clarity, I've done both) is either naive or plain dumb.

The hours of the shops are set by the managers.
The days of the week that they are open are set by the managers.

The only thing that managers really do not have control over at a GW shop are what they stock.

Yeah, cause when you have your days off are just about the most important thing you have to consider when you're running a business.

They don't choose who works for them, how much they are paid or what benefits they are entitled to, what they stock, how much of it they stock, what price they sell product for or if and how much of a discount to offer, they do not liaise with suppliers and wholesalers, and have to ensure they are paid, they are not responsible for managing the utilities or the rent, nor for making sure they are paid on time, they aren't responsible for any more than the most basic bookeeping, nor for ensuring their accounts are up to date and all tax owed is paid, most importantly, they don't have to ensure that their is money in the bank to pay the wages each month, regardless of everything else that has happened.

Again, naive or dumb, your call.

he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy

 Lutharr101 wrote:
he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy

It was a reference back to my earlier post, I'm not calling him naive or dumb, merely that to argue being a GW store manager is in any tangible way akin to running your own business is either naive (ie he doesn't really have a firm grasp of exactly what running your own business is like) or, well, dumb.

 Lutharr101 wrote:
he may not be correct about them being their own buisness but the rest of it is pretty accurate. Dont see the need to start insulting the guy

It's not though. Put your local into GW's store finder. Look at the hours of all of the other stores within the radius you set. You'll see yours is the exception (possibly as it is in a shopping centre, so its hours are set by when that opens) and not how 99% of all the other stores operate.

For example, my local store has 2 staff still. I often wonder why the 1 man opening hours are still in place. Surely if the manager could determine the hours as you so claim then it would open on monday and tuesday?