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 Preston wrote:
I know they started this at my local GW, Cheltenham, a few months back, only it was 20 pounds.
No idea if they are still doing it, since moved house, but it pretty much single handedly killed in store gaming over night. The caveat was that you could still play on Thursday 'open gaming night' for free.

Twenty pounds for what? A month's pass? Per game? An everlasting right to game as a member. What? That's a lot of money for someone for, e.g. a month, and it's no money at all for a shop if it's in perpetuity...

When you spend £20 you got a token for an hour of gaming. I think it was on a 2' by 4' board too. - I mentioned it earlier in the thread.

 Compel wrote:
When you spend £20 you got a token for an hour of gaming. I think it was on a 2' by 4' board too. - I mentioned it earlier in the thread.

Wow. That's a pretty awful deal!

I can't possibly imagine anyone ever wanting to play for an hour on a 2' by 4' even when it's free.
That's not even enough room for a game of kill team.

 Azazelx wrote:
no, no. We call lorries cookies.

So who drives the biscuit lorries?

 Bookwrack wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
no, no. We call lorries cookies.

So who drives the biscuit lorries?

Truck cookies. Of course.

kb305 wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Or it could be that the customer spends hundreds (or indeed, thousands) of dollars a year at the place rather than online and sees being asked to pay a needless insult and takes their business online instead.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Context is everything.

what if you just had it be like a pool hall. beautiful tables and terrain and just charge for that, no store whatsoever to complicate things. that's actually not too bad of an idea.

Sounds like a gaming club, which is usually a different story. I've paid memberships and by the day for gaming clubs in the past, and have no issue with that. When I used to play in-store with a group, a lot of us used to spend good money there weekly. I certainly bought something every week, and not "A Mars bar" kinda stuff, either, but small to very large purchases. Usually $20-100 a week. Of course, some of the group didn't spend much. But if they were not there, then neither would those of us who spent significant dollars on a weekly basis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

knas ser wrote:

There's another plus with paid table time. It makes having tables a revenue stream in itself, rather than just a burden on the store needed for marketing purposes. That way you're more likely to see multiple tables, larger stores, because paid time will offset the costs of that. Honestly, the place someone mentioned where they have four tables, you pay for the time and you can make tea there and use the bathrooms, etc. It sounds great. If I lived nearer, I'd totally pay for that assuming it's not too expensive. There are tonnes of people who want to game but don't have a lot of space and perhaps can't afford to spend a lot of money or time on fancy terrain. When you pay, you usually get higher quality than free alternatives.

EDIT: And if you went with the above, obviously what you should do would be to give tokens with purchases which you can use to book table time as well. That way, everyone would think: "I can pay for this table time directly, or I can buy this RipTide and get a whole four battle slots free with it".

See, with something like this - I'd be okay with it as long as there wasn't actually an expectation that I also buy all my stuff from there as well. If the tables become a "revenue stream" that I'm expected to pay for as I would in a gaming club, then I'd no longer feel an obligation to "pay where I play". Now that doesn't mean I'd be dickish about things and say to others "No, don't buy those here - get them online for 40% less!" but I certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to buy those here instead of online.

Twenty pounds for what? A month's pass? Per game? An everlasting right to game as a member. What? That's a lot of money for someone for, e.g. a month, and it's no money at all for a shop if it's in perpetuity...

Spending 20 pounds, as other have said, got you a token for 1 hours gaming on a 4x4 table or 1 hours use of the in store painting stations.

 Azazelx wrote:

See, with something like this - I'd be okay with it as long as there wasn't actually an expectation that I also buy all my stuff from there as well. If the tables become a "revenue stream" that I'm expected to pay for as I would in a gaming club, then I'd no longer feel an obligation to "pay where I play". Now that doesn't mean I'd be dickish about things and say to others "No, don't buy those here - get them online for 40% less!" but I certainly wouldn't feel an obligation to buy those here instead of online.

And that's the goal - to find something you would be okay with. You're the customer! Putting myself in the hypothetical role of GW or a store (to be clear, I've never run a store), I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with you buying stuff elsewhere. I would see that as a problem to solve - how can I persuade you to buy it here. Gaming tokens with the purchases, would be one thing I would favour for that. The purchasable time, whilst helping me offset the costs of the space and terrain, I would not at all mind if 80% of it was taken up by people using free tokens from purchases. After all, I'm the one deciding whether you get a four-hour token with every £10 or every £40 and thus able to balance my costs. Tokens are even a social thing. Obviously if you have a token and another person doesn't, you can pay for that game. It gets people mixing it up and it encourages purchases because if two people are buying a blister pack of minis they buy them together so that they get a token (and then they game together). Of if someone is buying £36 of stuff, maybe they'll decide to get an extra blister pack to push it up to £40 and get the extra token. The exchange for all this on my side, is that I am no longer just cramming a table into my store and leaving people to waste time there. It's now a service which I have to make sure people are enjoying and think is high quality. I can't just take the attitude of thinking: "I don't owe these people anything - I'm giving them a free table and time!". I have to think: "am I offering a competitive service here?" Good terrain, making sure bookings are handled friendly and efficiently, ideally getting the space to put two tables in...

Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.

But I'll finish up by emphasizing the need to keep free slots available. This is already an expensive hobby and for every person like me who thinks: "I will pay for quality", there's someone else who thinks "I can't pay". There's an economic tipping point in your career when your time becomes valuable enough that it is worth paying for things that save you time. When you pay someone else to paint that wall because taking the time off work to do it yourself would cost you more than hiring a painter and decorator, or when a large table with terrain for afternoon is worth a few quid because you only get so much free time and if you can't buy extra hours in the day, you can at least channel some money into making what hours the day has be nicer. Cut off point is different for everyone and every product. So if I were hypothetically GW, I would do this, but make very sure those who couldn't / didn't want to play, still had some opportunities to do so.

Free and also Introductory slots, are vital.

knas ser wrote:
Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.

It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.

 jonolikespie wrote:

knas ser wrote:
Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.

It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.

You can't fire me, I quit!

This is chicken and the egg. If you charge me for tables, then I will buy from 40% online discounters... But usually if people charge for tables it is because a significant number of people are already buying from online discounters. Sometimes you can run your company right and just get a local area of gak customers which don't want a store, but want a clubhouse.

So how do you retain people who choose online discounters because they are entitled to using free space and the still purchasing from online discounters in the name of "lowest possible price." If the answer is not to charge for space, then it is to waste space for entitled non-customers or dump open gaming for one "system" for another... Which is basically the result where war gamers are displaced for magic events.

I have never heard any real "solutions" for stores besieged by these mooches, and I have seen a good number. And it boils down to hoping you can survive to see them "move on" and be replaced by people who pay where they play. Some survive, others do not.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.

Or you lose that competition to other stores. There are at least 3-4 gaming options within reasonable driving distance where I live, so if one of them started charging for tables (whether directly or indirectly) I'll just go play at one of the other ones. The only way to charge for tables is for every store to agree, and the first one to break the agreement and offer free gaming would have an instant advantage over the others. So, at least around here, offering free gaming space is a mandatory price you pay just for having a chance of getting anyone to buy wargaming stuff from you.

Something you guys seem to be missing though - and it involves the balance between paying customers and "moochers".

 Azazelx wrote:
When I used to play in-store with a group, a lot of us used to spend good money there weekly. I certainly bought something every week, and not "A Mars bar" kinda stuff, either, but small to very large purchases. Usually $20-100 a week. Of course, some of the group didn't spend much. But if they were not there, then neither would those of us who spent significant dollars on a weekly basis.

Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.

 jonolikespie wrote:

knas ser wrote:
Trade isn't about one person exploiting the other. Trade is about offering each other something of value. And the more of value I can give you what you want, the more of value you will give me for it. Race to the bottom is a plague on our culture.

It may be a plague on our culture but that is exactly the point of capitalism. I buy from whoever gives me the best value for money. If two stores are offering identical products for different prices I buy from the cheapest of the two unless there are other factors to consider (like the cheaper store being half an hour away or always having really long lines).
Free in store gaming is another factor to consider and creates a sense of loyalty towards your store but the second you start charging you lose that. That's when you start losing customers to online discountets, and you won't make that money back by charging for table space.

You've misunderstood what "Race to the Bottom" is. It doesn't mean two vendors offering the same product and competing on price. It means two vendors competing on price alone and thus reducing the quality of products. E.g. Apple are widely renowned for the quality of the computer hardware. Whereas many Windows OEMs competed primarily on price (race to the bottom) selling ever crappier hardware in the belief that being able to sell for less would get them more sales. Not all did it and if you were willing to pay Apple prices, there were just as good laptops at the high-end for Windows. But the majority of the market was involved in a Race to the Bottom leading to poorer quality. (Thankfully the Windows OEMs have now started to raise their game dramatically).

Trust, me - I know capitalism. I am a capitalist. It's about value for money as you say. Race to the Bottom is a term meaning focusing on the money side of the equation at the expense of the value side.

And I disagree. A modest fee for table use wont dissuade affluent people. And these are the people most able and willing to buy things from you. Seriously - I'll pay £2 for a sandwich from the supermarket when I can't be bothered making one myself in the morning before I leave. Do you really think £2 would stop me from getting a good quality game table in a nice environment? Hell's Teeth, if it means less waiting around and better facilities, I want to pay it. And if it changes the attitude of people who just turn up and piss around on the table for hours because they view it as their right and just a form of hanging out, and instead makes them view it as a service with value that they don't want to waste rather than just a pub where they don't have to buy drinks, then I'm really in favour of it.

People who can't afford it, I am totally fine with - I'm not going to let you turn this into something other than my stated position of "free slots need to be kept", but people who view it as their entitlement for deigning to buy something from the shop, I actually find irksome. As I said at the beginning - I'm a capitalist. If something has value, put a £ sign on it. My feeling is that there are a lot of people who simply freeload - they'll use the store, and buy elsewhere (or hardly buy at all). The problem stems from these people. Ergo, get rid of these people. Those who buy are getting free game tokens with their purchases so they are not affected. Those who don't buy are paying modest sums to use the facilities, so they're fine. Those who will do neither give the store nothing and get in the way of the rest of us.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
Essentially, you boot my mates for not buying/paying and you'll find that I stop going there and spending my money. (FWIW, this was before online discounters, and my friends who didn't spend big or buy a lot were just careful with their money/didn't buy things on impulse/painted everything before buying new stuff/etc. They did buy locally, just not often at all, and when their armies for XYZ game were finished, they were pretty much finished.

Under my model, you can also get tokens for buying things. So if you are, as you say, buying stuff, you would never be affected by this. Only moochers are affected. Buyers don't pay. Non-buyers do. Those who are not willing to be either will go and drag down another shop.

£2-£3 for a game seems very reasonable. I'm lucky enough to have an 8'x4' table at home, but it's not always set up for wargaming (it serves double duty as my wife's costume cutting table).

Even if it was a dedicated wargaming table, though, it'd take me time to set up terrain (presumably already done in-store). Wear and tear on the terrain is another factor. So £2 seems like a bargain, £3 seems fair. This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.

£2-£3 is what I pay to play at my Gaming Club. So if you're charging that, you better make sure that your store is as good as, if not better than, a club.

Not just half a board for an hour.

I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else. This isn't a new idea in this area. Every store that tries it here goes out of business. As gamers we want as wide a player pool as possible so your not playing the same guy all the time. We go to which ever store offers that option.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.

Teaching support?

 wowsmash wrote:
I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.

As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.

 carlos13th wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
This is bearing in mind I generally earn at least £20 an hour if I do paid work, so £2 is 6 minutes' worth of work, probably about as long as it takes me to set up terrain.

Teaching support?

Close... Visiting Lecturer work (actually £40/hour at the moment, but down to more like £20/hour when I start the new, proper Lecturer job in Jan).

knas ser wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.

As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.

And if I don't need anything further for my money what do you propose. that I spend it just because?

 wowsmash wrote:

knas ser wrote:

 wowsmash wrote:
I might be persuaded to pay if the facilities were descent however I wouldn't think twice about buying online at that point. Since your already charging me to play there. More likely I would go somewhere else.

As I pointed out earlier, under my model, by buying from the shop, you're getting play tokens already so you wouldn't have to pay. Assuming that you are, as you state, currently purchasing from that shop, then you wont be impacted by the change. In fact, you'll find your experience improved because those paying will result in better services and a lack of moochers will result in more availability.

And if I don't need anything further for my money what do you propose. that I spend it just because?

Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table. If you haven't bought anything for a while, you've now transitioned to "moocher" status. The paid table time offsets this.

knas ser wrote:
Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.

You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.

You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.

Yes, you might go to the other shop where you'll be fighting for space with all the other people who are there because they don't spend money and in a shop where the table is a burden rather than - if not a revenue stream - at least has its costs offset and therefore can be a better service. But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.

As to my "weekly attendance being disappointing", that is supposition. Firstly, more table availability is a positive in and of itself, but really demand is probably high enough that it's fine. Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding and actually one of the chief limiters for demand is the wait time, the randomness of whether or not you'll get a slot... paying makes it a better service inherently, by the aforementioned increase in resource and priority for the table due to the income, and because those who just mooch have gone away, making it easier to play. It actually becomes more appealing to me and I'm sure to many others.

Really, you're trying to create a non-existent scenario with your post - where you are spending money but are driven away from the shop. It doesn't matter if you are not buying anything that week but it's your friend. The next week it might be the other way around. The point is that you are spending money and are thus unaffected by the payment for tables non-buyers have to make. It doesn't work - there's no scenario where you're buying things and being driven away from the table. You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities. So why would the shop care?

You're about to argue why you wouldn't just stay at the other shop once you've gone over there in some dry spell when no-one you know or yourself have bought anything for a while but now suddenly want to. Well maybe you might. But that's fine because now the shops are no longer just competing on price (race to the bottom), but on quality. All else being equal, the fact that the table in the first shop is no longer such a financial burden, they can make it better. So maybe you want to come back to the first shop. Maybe knowing that the cost of the space and terrain is offset, they might go for two tables. Even better! If you make your facilities better and those facilities are free to all, then you may increase buying customers, but you will certainly increase moochers. Positives can be cancelled out by negatives. Therefore there is reduced incentive to improve the service. But with paid facilities, any improvements are an inducement to those paying / buying models, and doesn't increase moochers. Thus significantly greater motivation to improve the facilities.

You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability). It's not just a matter of the money, it's the fact that improving it brings only the positives (paying people) without the negatives (moochers). So yes, you come back when you want to buy something because you get more value for it. As opposed to the shop which is moocher-heavy and which relies on your feeling of obligation from using their facilities sometimes.

Short answer - some people will leave and go to another shop, but these are the people the shop wants least (remember, if you or your friend are buying, you can play there) and it results in better services for the rest of us. I'm quite happy to pay a few quid for several hours on a table in the shop, if the quality is good. I'm sure very many are. You'd spend more than that on drinks if you were in a pub for four hours!

knas ser wrote:

Spoiler:

 Peregrine wrote:

knas ser wrote:
Nope. At that point, if you've used up all the tokens from buying things, you pay a couple of £2-3 to use the table.

You mean I go to the other store in town that doesn't charge for table space, which means now you have one less player on 40k night. And if a player who is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff decides to go with me because your weekly attendance is disappointing then you've lost a lot of money compared to just accepting that not everyone in your store is a direct source of profit.

Yes, you might go to the other shop where you'll be fighting for space with all the other people who are there because they don't spend money and in a shop where the table is a burden rather than - if not a revenue stream - at least has its costs offset and therefore can be a better service. But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.

As to my "weekly attendance being disappointing", that is supposition. Firstly, more table availability is a positive in and of itself, but really demand is probably high enough that it's fine. Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding and actually one of the chief limiters for demand is the wait time, the randomness of whether or not you'll get a slot... paying makes it a better service inherently, by the aforementioned increase in resource and priority for the table due to the income, and because those who just mooch have gone away, making it easier to play. It actually becomes more appealing to me and I'm sure to many others.

Really, you're trying to create a non-existent scenario with your post - where you are spending money but are driven away from the shop. It doesn't matter if you are not buying anything that week but it's your friend. The next week it might be the other way around. The point is that you are spending money and are thus unaffected by the payment for tables non-buyers have to make. It doesn't work - there's no scenario where you're buying things and being driven away from the table. You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities. So why would the shop care?

You're about to argue why you wouldn't just stay at the other shop once you've gone over there in some dry spell when no-one you know or yourself have bought anything for a while but now suddenly want to. Well maybe you might. But that's fine because now the shops are no longer just competing on price (race to the bottom), but on quality. All else being equal, the fact that the table in the first shop is no longer such a financial burden, they can make it better. So maybe you want to come back to the first shop. Maybe knowing that the cost of the space and terrain is offset, they might go for two tables. Even better! If you make your facilities better and those facilities are free to all, then you may increase buying customers, but you will certainly increase moochers. Positives can be cancelled out by negatives. Therefore there is reduced incentive to improve the service. But with paid facilities, any improvements are an inducement to those paying / buying models, and doesn't increase moochers. Thus significantly greater motivation to improve the facilities.

You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability). It's not just a matter of the money, it's the fact that improving it brings only the positives (paying people) without the negatives (moochers). So yes, you come back when you want to buy something because you get more value for it. As opposed to the shop which is moocher-heavy and which relies on your feeling of obligation from using their facilities sometimes.

Short answer - some people will leave and go to another shop, but these are the people the shop wants least (remember, if you or your friend are buying, you can play there) and it results in better services for the rest of us. I'm quite happy to pay a few quid for several hours on a table in the shop, if the quality is good. I'm sure very many are. You'd spend more than that on drinks if you were in a pub for four hours!

Now hang on, who exactly do you think you are, coming on here, making sensible and reasoned arguments? You'll give us peninsula dwellers a bad name! Didn't you know we're all supposed to be sexist, GW hating, moustache twirling hyper manipulators? (All things I've been directly or indirectly accused of in my time here )

Seriously though, couldn't agree more, people who come into your shop are not customers until they spend money, although admittedly the onus is on the retailer to do everything they can to encourage this. I for one would have no problem paying to play in a well lit, well run, spacious store with nice terrain over being jammed into a corner on a 2'x4' being elbowed in the ear by over exuberant Yu Gi Oh players.

Of course, given two equally good spaces to play, one free and one chargeable, then it becomes a whole different ball game, but certainly in the UK, that would be such a rare occasion as to not be worth considering.

I have yet to see this well lit and great terrain store. Most shops I see are in out of the way places with little to know terrain that isn't even painted.

 wowsmash wrote:
I have yet to see this well lit and great terrain store. Most shops I see are in out of the way places with little to know terrain that isn't even painted.

In which case, they're going to struggle to justify the cost of using the facilities aren't they?

Although none are immediately on my doorstep (although my local club is exactly that, more space than we are ever likely to need, well lit and a huge amount of terrain, but admittedly that's a club, and I'm just mentioning it to pimp it out to anyone who might be reading) there are aeveral stores within an hour or so's travel which could be classed as such (and I'm the opposite end of the country from the lead belt)

knas ser wrote:
But you just said your friend is currently building an army and buying lots of stuff. So you've just lost your reason to go to the other store in the first place because your friend will have lots and lots of tokens.

I didn't say they were a friend. Say you have an average of five people on 40k night, two of them are actively building an army, one buys some occasional paint, and the other two are "leeches". You charge for table space, and suddenly the leeches are gone and there's a good chance the occasional buyer is going to leave. Now you have two players with plenty of tokens, but only each other to play against. Meanwhile the other store in town has an extra 2-3 people every night because you sent all the "leeches" over there, so your two paying customers change stores to have a better community. Now instead of 2.5 customers and 2.5 "leeches" you have zero customers and zero leeches.

Tables are a finite resource which I see demand usually exceeding

Maybe this is just something weird about your area. Here there are plenty of tables available even on busy days (one store can easily run 10 games of miniatures and still have plenty of room left for MTG/RPGs/etc) and the finite resource is people to play against. I suppose your "pay for tables" plan could work in an area where there are only tiny stores with 1-2 tables available, but I can't imagine that being a typical situation.

You're only driven away if you're not buying things / willing to pay a few quid for several hours use of the facilities.

Or if you're buying stuff but all the "leeches" are gone so there are fewer people to play against than there are at the other nearby store that doesn't charge for table use. You have to stop looking at direct sales to each person and consider the value of having a store with an active community and lots of players, even if not all of those players are directly making you a profit.

You see? All else being equal, the shop where you get tokens for buying things or can pay for table time directly, will have better table facilities (size, space, terrain, availability).

Not necessarily. You're assuming that the pay-to-play store will be generous and invest in better tables instead of just keeping the extra profit, that pay-to-play makes enough money to make a meaningful upgrade to those tables, that the limiting factor on table quality is cost rather than things like painting skill, and that the free-to-play store doesn't make similar upgrades.

You're assumption appears to be that there is always more tables than gamers, and that the leeches moving to another store improves the community rather than making it harder to get a table.

knas ser has said that the problem with gaming at their store is that there are more gamers than tables so getting a game (regardless of opponent) isn't guaranteed, and that paying a small amount is worth it to secure a table.

I'm sure both sorts of stores exist, and that in the abundant table situation paying for a table might not work, but in my experience most gaming stores in the UK (bar a couple of big centres like Warhammer World*) tend to only have a few tables and there's often a waiting list.


*Even Warhammer World has a finite selection of themed tables (maybe 10) with the rest being a RoB board with a couple of buildings, and recommends booking in advance to get a table you want, so they must suffer the occasional more gamers than tables situation.

As I have been drawing up a business plan to open up a games store, this discussion is very interesting to me. In my opinion, tolerating "mooches" seems to be a pill that owners just have to swallow.

Banning people from the store just seems like bad business that only creates a negative environment. People come to a store to have a variety of opponents, and even if a few people aren't supporting the local, at least they are adding to the army pool. But then again. How would I deal with "TFG"? Because you know there is always at least one.

As for the pay to play tables, I think it would only work in areas where the number of gamers far exceeds the number of tables.
The unfortunate truth for many FLGS is that their sales depend on the loyalty of their bases to buy local instead of going online. When people start shelling out money for tables, even if it is only a few bucks, the "social contract" is fulfilled, and the guilt of buying online is lessened. Now the owner has traded a possible $30 sale for a $5 sale.

I can see a happy middle ground of booking tables however. All Tables are free unless some one reserves one for a fee. Owner leaves a note on the table that says this table is reserved from 12 to 3. You can play on it but at 12 you gotta pack it up. This way you keep the free players and make players who are willing to spend $10 to assure them a spot happy. Heck, if your tables are good enough maybe reserving tables would make pay to play an unintended byproduct.