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Strombones wrote: As I have been drawing up a business plan to open up a games store, this discussion is very interesting to me. In my opinion, tolerating "mooches" seems to be a pill that owners just have to swallow.
Banning people from the store just seems like bad business that only creates a negative environment. People come to a store to have a variety of opponents, and even if a few people aren't supporting the local, at least they are adding to the army pool. But then again. How would I deal with "TFG"? Because you know there is always at least one.
As for the pay to play tables, I think it would only work in areas where the number of gamers far exceeds the number of tables.
The unfortunate truth for many FLGS is that their sales depend on the loyalty of their bases to buy local instead of going online. When people start shelling out money for tables, even if it is only a few bucks, the "social contract" is fulfilled, and the guilt of buying online is lessened. Now the owner has traded a possible $30 sale for a $5 sale.
I can see a happy middle ground of booking tables however. All Tables are free unless some one reserves one for a fee. Owner leaves a note on the table that says this table is reserved from 12 to 3. You can play on it but at 12 you gotta pack it up. This way you keep the free players and make players who are willing to spend $10 to assure them a spot happy. Heck, if your tables are good enough maybe reserving tables would make pay to play an unintended byproduct.
It mainly comes down to expectation. Clearly some people expect to get free use of store facilities. There especially seems to be this presumption in the USA with some people feeling actively resentful at not being given these things to the extent that some will say: "I'm going to buy elsewhere because I wasn't given this". Your chief problem, as for most retail these days other than very cheap goods or clothes where checking them out in person is wanted, is that online is cheaper. That's the real problem.
How much space do you have / will you have? Do you know that yet? If you have a lot of space, enough for a few tables, you can run a shop and gaming club. If prices are low and there's a clear demarcation of club/shop boundary, then it should serve to counter the "I was cheated" mentality of some people. I.e. if they walk into a shop and see a table in it and just expect to game away, no purchase, nothing, then they'll turn on you like a dog when you say: "it costs X to use that". If you have the shop at the front and then a club area behind that with, e.g. three nice tables in it, or in a separate room, then people see that it's a separate paid facility. Really there's almost nothing you can do to completely deal with the sense of entitlement of the American Consumer, but something like this might help. You can have a booking slots table on the wall behind your counter and make sure that people know tables need to be booked and that someone who has booked takes precedence. You can have "free membership" for the club and everyone gets "three free tokens" when they join. So people get to try it out. If anyone just wanders right through the shop and starts setting up, just politely inform them that the club is separate to the shop and they need to join, which will just take a minute. The more you make the club appealing in its own right, the more you (a) find people willing to pay for it and (b) challenge people who think it should be free to them because you should be grateful they may one day buy a blister pack from you. Expectations, expectations, expectations. Set them.
Face facts, you're setting up a business where people buy non-expiring goods. I still have Striking Scorpions that I bought over twenty years ago. They're still fine to play with. You're going to have a lot of people who have everything they need. What a lot of people don't have, is space to play, with nice terrain, without people telling them to get off the dining room table. So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it. Seriously, with free tokens, anyone who actually is buying from you, or who has friends who are buying from you, will have the tokens they need to pay.
Because it all goes back to that thing I said at the start - buying online is cheaper. You need to counter that with something. Social obligation might have worked twenty years ago, but I don't think I'm being cynical in saying that huge numbers of people today will still use your facilities and still buy online. Maybe they buy a few small things and get the expensive things online where the discount is too lovely for them to pass up. Trust me - people are biased. Their perception of one side of a social contract is very seldom the perception from the other side. So what can you offer as an incentive to buy in your store? Tokens for table use. If they're thinking about buying that pack of Dire Avengers and they know they want to game later and it costs £2 to book a table, they'll save themselves £2 and buy the Dire Avengers. And that gain there offsets the money they'd save from online.
What are the big negatives to public free tables from a user's point of view? Not knowing if it will be free, low-quality, people already on there dawdling and just filling in time when you want to really get a game in. Which of these do paid service solve? All of them. You aren't going to invest in quality tables, terrain or staying open later into the evening if all it's doing is encouraging people to hang around your store because they bought a blister pack last month and think the table has no value because it is free. You will if you know that it's bringing money into your store.
The £2 per booking is not there to make you money from renting tables. It's nice that it may actually cover your costs for lighting and space, but what it's really there is to put a monetary value on the table for the customer so that when they buy a Wraith Knight and have enough tokens for five four hour games, they know they're getting something really worth something.
The real question is - "who are my customers?" If I was your customer and you had good facilities like an actual gaming club, I would cheerfully pay £2 to use those facilities for a game. You've got the space, the terrain and £2 would buy me one drink in a pub. Or one-quarter of a two-hour movie. I don't care. I have a job. My free time is more valuable to me than money. Make my free time better, you can have some of my money.
Now if there is someone across the street from you offering exactly the same service for nothing, then maybe I'll go there (though honestly, I'd rather pay if it means certainty and no waiting around), but the point is that I care more about quality than cost. WH40K / WFB is an expensive hobby. If the service is the same, then I'll go with cheaper. But the moment your quality is better, I'll come to you even at a modest cost. Especially as given my buying of miniatures that cost is probably already paid by the free tokens. I am your dream customer. I am the sort of person who will say: "I want a Wraith Knight so I will buy one". Okay, I'm not actually your dream customer - that is the sort of idiot who goes: "I would like to buy that complete Ultramarines Chapter for £7,500, please". But then that customer has probably gone online already. Anyway, point is, you want me in your store. If you can build an actual game's club worth coming to, then you'll get me there. Ditto for many other people. We want good facilities. Compete on that and so long as you set expectations from the start, we'll pay or buy to use them.
Even highlight those expectations in the name at the start - call your club and your shop slightly different names.
Make your club the place people want to game and you have the means to compete with online. Who is going to save themself $10 online when they get three table bookings worth $12 with the same purchase in your store.
You just need to make your facilities a little bit better - some tea / coffee facilities, a vending machine, space around the tables and more surety that people can actually get a table without moochers lounging around on it, and challenge expectations of entitlement in various subtle ways. It can be done and if you can do it, you stand a much better chance of having a long-term business being attached to a well-liked gaming club, than giving a free table in your shop to people with nothing else to do in the hopes they might buy enough to offset the people they drive away.
You asked how you would deal with "that guy". Well I have found that the answer to that to be that the best way to deal with "That guy", is "in advance".
HTH.
Knas.
What is best in life?
To wound enemy units, see them driven from the table, and hear the lamentations of their player.
Or alternatively you could read what mikhaila, that runs two successful miniature stores, has to say about the matter:
mikhaila wrote: Both my stores are free to play at.
(Rent is not cheap at either, at 7000.00 and 9000.00 per month. )
Charging for table space would lose money.
I do mentoring for new store owners as part of a website set up by GAMA, and am very convinced that charging customers to play at your store is bad for business. It puts a barrier between the customer and the store, and the store will get far more sales from the players if they are in the store longer. It works for both sides. Having to collect fees puts the store in an adversarial relationship where you have to act as a tax collector and chase people down.
If a store is having a problem with players who do not support the store tying up the tables, there are other ways to deal with that. I know of a couple of stores that had problems with Yugioh players coming in and buying nothing but tying up the tables 5 nights a week. It was an easy solution: Tell them NO. Ask them to leave. Explain that the tables are not for yugioh, they are for Warhammer, events, or other things the store intends them to be used for.
Some store owners feel this is confrontational, and they don't like confrontation. So they hesitate to confront people causing problems. This results in turning over control of your store to those non customers. Never a good thing. It can lead to things getting so bad that they feel they need some rule to fix things, and thus pay to play pops up.
I don't think it works, as i said above. At best you drive off the problem along with a lot of good customers. At worse the problem people pat a measly couple of bucks to rent tables, buy nothing, and feel justified now to not buy anything, and they are playing by your rules.
Lutharr101 wrote: Wouldnt care to. Ive a proper job that earns real money. Why would i wanna waste my time with that crap. Especially one that has people who want gak for free.
Of course you don't want to work in retail, no sane person would want to if they have better opportunities available. But that doesn't change your ignorance of how retail works in this situation. Let's make it nice and simple:
A is in your store for gaming, but does not buy anything. However, A might buy something in the future because they enjoy the gaming space but just don't have any thing to buy right now. Or A might ignore you and buy from that online discount store, but because A plays every week B also comes in to play and buys stuff. If you drive A away because you're only looking at their immediate purchases then you give up those potential future purchases, and B stays home and plays video games instead of buying something from you. Just like GW you've failed to understand the concept of taking a loss on one thing so that you can get better profits elsewhere.
so in essence your saying stores should pay for people to just hang around incase they may buy something at a later date? I dont see this trend in other retail stores where they offer free stuff so why are hobbystores any different.
Sure, 'just in case they may buy something later". And if I do my job right, they always will be buying something later. What gamer buys something everytime they come into a store? What type of retail expects you to?
The effect of being in a store a lot is that the player spends more money in the store. Or has other people buy things from the store for him. There is a very direct relationship between time in the store and money spent. The example given above for customers A and B is very accurate. (as is the statement pertaining to the sanity of opening a game store.).
I think a big difference with the US as opposed to the UK, is that there is a particularly limited gaming club scene in the States, so a feeling of entitlement almost is justified, as kids, parents, whatever, running around and actually wanting to use your dining room table for... dining rather than toy soldiers, I can imagine that playing in a store is almost a requirement to actually take part in the whole hobby.
Strombones wrote: Yikes. You guys don't have very high opinions of Americans.
I think it is more of a skewed perception of what does/does not work for gaming here in the US. It is very much a regional thing in terms of whether a pay to play or 100% open gaming scene is going to function.
A lot of that can be traced to what kind of market and the saturation of shops a locality has along with the distance of a shop related to public transit, universities, housing, etc.
To use an example: If you have a really good shop readily accessible with all kinds of games being hosted at that location and a large amount of the various lines readily available at the shop on game days? That shop tends to do well enough to get away with no "pay to play", even if some of the gamers shop primarily online instead of in the store. There might be a sense among the gamers present that if they buy something that day they are "paying in" to the shop's community or it might just be the gamer deciding they need X after losing or need more Y after winning with it.
I'm not an expert though and I have not exactly tried to do a study on the situation so take what I say with a pinch of salt, but really what works for one shop and one locality might not work for you in your locality. Take the foundations of what Mikhaila has said to heart and gauge out the community before you open your doors though.
Strombones wrote: Yikes. You guys don't have very high opinions of Americans.
It has nothing to do with being Americans, it has to do that gaming is FLGS-centric in the US where other places it is club-based. When you and 10 friends have to organize a location at a church or a private hall and rent the space, you appreciate it more because you realize the space has to be secured and paid for. When you simply "have it" and it has always been this way, you become entitled to it and feel it is something you deserve for purchasing items. When you no longer have it, you feel like so etching was taken from you. Others never had it and see the value and appreciate it when they finally do, hence why they realize why they should pay where you play.
But there are those who don't realize a good thing when they have it and crush FLGS under being a mooch and internet dis counters and get the war gamers displaced in the name of MTG.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
I was really responding to the "nothing you can do to completely deal with the sense of entitlement of the American consumer remark" in the previous post. It just seemed to be a bit of a jab that's all. I assure you all that my friends and I are not entitled and have gone to great lengths to support local hobby shops.
You guys bring up great points though. The great irony of all this is that the community here has never played on anything but styrofoam and coke bottle terrain! They might look at a nice board and simply say "meh".
Kanluwen's observation that it differs between regions is most likely correct. Im sure that population density has an effect as well. The more people, the more likely pay to play is acceptable.
And nkelsch you are right about gamers not realizing what they have. This make me wonder if me starting a shop and having to remind people that doing business with me despite higher costs is in their interest in the long run is really a solid business plan.
"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 04:09:47
Strombones wrote: Kanluwen's observation that it differs between regions is most likely correct. Im sure that population density has an effect as well. The more people, the more likely pay to play is acceptable.
IMO it's probably the opposite, as long as you aren't in a country where GW has driven the independent stores out of business. Places with high population density are likely to have multiple game stores within reasonable driving distance, so any store that starts charging for table space is just going to send a bunch of customers over to their competition. But if you're in an area with low population density and you're the only option in a 50-mile radius those unhappy players have nowhere else to go.
If you want a US-specific factor here it probably has something to do with driving habits. In the US, unless you live in the middle of a big city, it's taken for granted that you have a car and you're willing to drive 15-30 minutes to get to a store because everything is so spread out geographically. If a store wants to charge me $5 to use a table I'd rather just spend $3 more in gas and go to a different store. I can afford to be "entitled" about it because my "where will I play" radius is almost guaranteed to be long enough to find a store that will offer free gaming space. So why would I want to support a store that doesn't?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
knas ser wrote: The more you make the club appealing in its own right, the more you (a) find people willing to pay for it and (b) challenge people who think it should be free to them because you should be grateful they may one day buy a blister pack from you. Expectations, expectations, expectations. Set them.
Except none of this is making the club more appealing, it's just making your store look less appealing. If you want me to sign up for a club and pay to reserve a table I'll just take my money over to your competition where they've got a dozen free tables waiting for me to use them. And I probably won't be the only person doing that, so your competition will have a busier and more appealing community, making your club membership even less appealing. And I don't think you're going to run a profitable business off selling club memberships while all the other sales go to someone else.
So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it.
2-3 tables? Forget it. If you don't have 10+ tables with good terrain you're not even matching the stores with free gaming space.
If they're thinking about buying that pack of Dire Avengers and they know they want to game later and it costs £2 to book a table, they'll save themselves £2 and buy the Dire Avengers.
No they won't, because they can save more than £2 by buying them online. And then they can save even more money by playing at a different store that doesn't charge £2 to use a table. If you want to survive as a physical store you don't compete on price, you compete on convenience. It's nice if people give you charity donations and buy in your store to support where they play, but the thing that's most likely to get me to buy something is that it's sitting there on your shelf right now instead of arriving a week later once the online store gets around to shipping it.
You aren't going to invest in quality tables, terrain or staying open later into the evening if all it's doing is encouraging people to hang around your store because they bought a blister pack last month and think the table has no value because it is free.
Of course you'll make that investment, because your competition is making that investment and if you don't all your players are going to go elsewhere.
The £2 per booking is not there to make you money from renting tables. It's nice that it may actually cover your costs for lighting and space, but what it's really there is to put a monetary value on the table for the customer so that when they buy a Wraith Knight and have enough tokens for five four hour games, they know they're getting something really worth something.
Until they do the math and realize that you gave them £10 worth of gaming (or £0 worth if you have competition in the area), so it's cheaper to buy online and just pay the £10 to use your table.
And if you want to talk about perceptions, now you're dealing with the perception that you're a greedy who charges for table space just to prove a point, even when it isn't paying your bills. Good luck keeping customer loyalty with that attitude.
Who is going to save themself $10 online when they get three table bookings worth $12 with the same purchase in your store.
You're making the assumption that people value your table bookings at $12. If the slightly better terrain compared to the free-table store is worth $5 to me then you're not giving me a very good deal, especially when I'm probably saving more than $12 by buying online.
You just need to make your facilities a little bit better - some tea / coffee facilities, a vending machine, space around the tables and more surety that people can actually get a table without moochers lounging around on it, and challenge expectations of entitlement in various subtle ways.
These are things that stores with free gaming space already offer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 09:22:06
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
nkelsch wrote: Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store
Which is hilarious to me. I can look at the shelves and see a rack full of paper-thin books that all cost $50 each, a single model on the top shelf for $160 (just one model!), not counting all the other boxes with price tags almost as absurd, and mandatory purchases just to get started for either game that are about $100 each (which as we all know is merely a drop in the bucket, and comparable to a single Magic booster pack in terms of how ready you are to actually start playing), and yet all of this still isn't profitable, even when you're throwing expensive brushes and paints on top of that, and apparently also charging those guys $12 a day just to set foot in your fething store, which is a "tax" other gamers get to happily avoid.
And you guys are all blaming the customer for being "entitiled"? If that's the case then it isn't a problem with wargamers specifically, because I've seen countless Magic players walk into the store (the ones who are keeping your lights on, who don't get treated like second-class citizens), show a little interest in the wall full of GW product, thinking it looks cool and wondering how the game works, and then laugh and walk away when they notice the $160 tank sitting on the top shelf, never to speak of the game again. The same people who, over time, will spend many more times that amount on booster boxes, fat packs, and single cards, while the $160 tank still sits up there collecting dust.
Personally I think it's obvious why wargames aren't profitable, but no one wants to acknowledge that fact and they even groan every time it's brought up.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
You are quite right, Sid. The biggest obstacle to miniature wargaming as opposed to CCGs is the lack of good spontaneous purchases. In the GW world at least, there is little I can buy without planning. I am no where near as likely to say, "what the heck," and pick up a $30-$50 box. The Magic player on the other hand, walks in, doesn't see much new, but still walks up to the counter on a whim and buys a couple boosters at $4 each.
Now, a couple of companies can still pull off the impulse purchase. Reaper minis, particularly Bones, are mostly $10 or less (well into my impulse purchase level) and even X-wing boosters are only in the $15 range. Most systems have a few items like this. Back in the days of blisters GW had items in this category. No more. Now it's minimum $20, and more likely $30 to pick up even a minimal character model. This means the GW focused store sees few MWG impulse buys.
That brings us around again to the original topic. No one is going to buy a $30-$60 (or more) kit every week when they come in to game. The death of the weekly impulse purchase items has led to the "entitled" gamers who end up playing but not purchasing. Give them something to buy, and I'll bet they will.
So if you are able to invest a little up front and get two to three tables, set up a booking system, then I believe you will be able to charge very modest fees for it.
2-3 tables? Forget it. If you don't have 10+ tables with good terrain you're not even matching the stores with free gaming space.
You should realize that your apparent experience (and opinion) is *NOT* universal. Some areas are lucky to have a single store within an acceptable driving distance that has 2-3 tables with *some* terrain. I drive 25 miles to preferentially go to the type of store you're using as the baseline minimum acceptable store.
I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America? My home town had a small gaming club set up in the 'volunteer' rooms every Sunday that shared space between RPG's, historicals, board and wargaming. There was only about 40-60k people in the area.
My current club is a Monday night at a Cricket club, there's another nearby that's Wednesdays at a Deaf Association. And yet another that's in a Community Hall. They service a town of about 80k people.
And that's not including the dedicated actual store that does Magic events.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 19:53:03
They're not any harder to set up in the US but rather the motivation isn't here for the most part. There is a bigger expectation here of gaming in stores rather than temporary club locations. People here are complaining about the possibility of paying to play in a location that also offers ready access to gaming supplies and purchases with no effort on their part to maintain... and you're surprised that they're not as interested in setting up a gaming club that they have to do all the work with in setting up/paying/organizing/etc and that doesn't offer the same purchase amenities as a store? The latter is alot more effort for less gain. If there truly is no other choice (as in no stores) then people can and do set up clubs but it's certainly not the preferred option in most cases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 20:02:57
Kyrolon wrote: You are quite right, Sid. The biggest obstacle to miniature wargaming as opposed to CCGs is the lack of good spontaneous purchases. In the GW world at least, there is little I can buy without planning. I am no where near as likely to say, "what the heck," and pick up a $30-$50 box. The Magic player on the other hand, walks in, doesn't see much new, but still walks up to the counter on a whim and buys a couple boosters at $4 each.
Now, a couple of companies can still pull off the impulse purchase. Reaper minis, particularly Bones, are mostly $10 or less (well into my impulse purchase level) and even X-wing boosters are only in the $15 range. Most systems have a few items like this. Back in the days of blisters GW had items in this category. No more. Now it's minimum $20, and more likely $30 to pick up even a minimal character model. This means the GW focused store sees few MWG impulse buys.
That brings us around again to the original topic. No one is going to buy a $30-$60 (or more) kit every week when they come in to game. The death of the weekly impulse purchase items has led to the "entitled" gamers who end up playing but not purchasing. Give them something to buy, and I'll bet they will.
Unfortunately many of the miniature games with potential spontaneous purchases do not sell well. Dust is such a game. You can buy a box of infantry for 15 bucks. Moreover, the models are preassembled and preprimed, so you can put them on the table right out of the box. Right now, it looks like it will go the way of AT-43 (its older brother)
Back to the topic of paying for a table, many stores have difficulty establishing a gaming community. Even when a community is established, people grow up or leave, so new members are needed to offset loses. Pay to play, just makes it that much harder. The only instance in which I think that pay to play would work is a tournament with prizes.
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
There is no obligation to buy in order to play. You could have the best store ever, and if people are entitled to free gaming and bottom dollar purchasing, they will play for free and never shop there.
There is nothing a store can do to change someone's opinion if they are unreasonable entitled customers.
This is the same as people who bring their lunch to cafés with patios and then want to sit outside and use the patio without patronizing the restaurant providing the space. Can you get away with it? Maybe, do you ruin it for everyone else? Yes. It isn't a charity, it is not being a dishonest disgusting mooch, like stealing sodas from fast food restaurants or taking up table space at a bar with music and drinking water and bread so you can hear the music but not buy any food or tip your waiter.
The store provides a service, the service is good, I patronize the store. If you can't afford to tip 20% you don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay where you play, you don't game in their store.
Just because there are horrible selfish people who abuse the system doesn't mean I am going to agree that they are correct in saying "it isn't my fault, they need to do more." At some point customers cross lines, and become unreasonable, and those people need to be thrown out. If is eye a customer abusing a retailer, I will all them on it because the truth is their actions take money out of my pocket and impact me. I will say and do what a store wishes they could if the situation arises.
If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
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MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
nkelsch wrote: If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
And, as I've already explained, you're ignoring the indirect benefits of having those "leeches" around. Player A might never buy anything from a store, but because player A (and people like A) play at that store there are always plenty of people on miniatures night. So then when player B, who likes to buy where they play, is getting into the game they come to your store and buy stuff. But if you kicked the "leeches" out they'd just go somewhere else and give that store a thriving community, so player B would follow and give their money to your competition.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
nkelsch wrote: If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
And, as I've already explained, you're ignoring the indirect benefits of having those "leeches" around. Player A might never buy anything from a store, but because player A (and people like A) play at that store there are always plenty of people on miniatures night. So then when player B, who likes to buy where they play, is getting into the game they come to your store and buy stuff. But if you kicked the "leeches" out they'd just go somewhere else and give that store a thriving community, so player B would follow and give their money to your competition.
that leech is still a terrible human being. Claiming that "I might bring customers" doesn't justify harming an establishment, both in general existence or directly by burdening a store and taking space away from paying customers.
You can have a thriving community who is active, and if none of them pay where they play, the. Your store goes under regardless how thriving the community. I have seen it multiple times, and when you get a batch of entitled gamers,they spread like locusts.
Your so-called helpful mooch scenario often plays out in such a way where they are not just mooching, but driving sales away from your store, because helping people get more models for cheaper s good for them right? So if you can buy 30% off from online and still play for free! then I as a terrible mooch win!as I have more models to play against! especially since I have zero investment in the success of the store and see no value in promoting them.
Your excuses are just that, and don't make it "ok". Terrible entitled people harm establishments and sometimes need to be removed. Real customers are often very happy when rude non-customers are expelled.
My Models: Ork Army: Waaagh 'Az-ard - Chibi Dungeon RPG Models! - My Workblog! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
RULE OF COOL: When converting models, there is only one rule: "The better your model looks, the less people will complain about it."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
MODELING FOR ADVANTAGE TEST: rigeld2: "Easy test - are you willing to play the model as a stock one? No? MFA."
So, nkelsch, how do you reconcile your idea of "mooches" with the experiences of some of the more successful FLGS owners that post here?
Mikhaila in particular seems to have few problems with open gaming spaces. My own FLGS does everything they can to get players in, even asking our group to come there to play even though they know we own everything we need for Flames of War. Why? Because we play with fully painted forces on nice terrain (which we bring) and allow others to join in. Frequently they walk over to the shelf and buy something. Are we Mooches? Derelicts? Do tell me how.
nkelsch wrote: that leech is still a terrible human being. Claiming that "I might bring customers" doesn't justify harming an establishment, both in general existence or directly by burdening a store and taking space away from paying customers.
I think you're making a pretty big assumption about table space there. In my experience table space is easily available and the hard part is finding other players to use it with. If you drive away the "leeches" you don't fix a problem with long waits for tables, you just have even more empty tables and people playing somewhere else.
You can have a thriving community who is active, and if none of them pay where they play, the. Your store goes under regardless how thriving the community. I have seen it multiple times, and when you get a batch of entitled gamers,they spread like locusts.
First of all, you're assuming that nobody in the group is buying, rather than some people buying and some not. Second, even if nobody is buying anything you certainly aren't fixing the problem by charging for table space. You might drive away the "leeches", but driving them away doesn't magically make paying customers appear to replace them.
Your so-called helpful mooch scenario often plays out in such a way where they are not just mooching, but driving sales away from your store, because helping people get more models for cheaper s good for them right? So if you can buy 30% off from online and still play for free! then I as a terrible mooch win!as I have more models to play against! especially since I have zero investment in the success of the store and see no value in promoting them.
So now you're betting your profits on the assumption that the extra sales you get from people not knowing how to buy online are enough to make up for the lost sales when people leave your store entirely. And when you make this bet don't forget that the people most likely to be unaware of online sales are the new players who aren't a very good foundation for a gaming community.
Real customers are often very happy when rude non-customers are expelled.
Except we aren't talking about rude non-customers, we're talking about people who aren't profitable. They might be perfectly nice to the other players, in which case expelling them just hurts the community and has the potential to drive paying customers away as well.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Compel wrote: I just don't get why Gaming Clubs are so hard to set up in America?
Because there's no need for them. Stores usually have plenty of gaming space already, so why invest the extra effort to build something that already exists? Also, we don't suffer from the same GW dominance that exists elsewhere, so there isn't the same need to create your own gaming space just so you can use non-GW stuff.
nkelsch wrote: Must be nice to drive 5 minutes farther to a place with gaming. Considering wargaming doesn't keep the lights on and is a drain on almost every store, often the issue is not that there is another store near by, it is that MtG is more valuable to stores and get prime time like weekends. So that store which doesn't charge to play probably also only has wargaming on Tuesdays and Thursdays and possibly a weekend tourney every 2 months. Stores cater to who keeps the lights on and that is not war gamers, especially when they buy online, won't pay to play and feel buying a snickers bar as legitimate support.
IMO this isn't a problem. The stores in my area have plenty of gaming space to host MTG and wargaming at the same time, and I actually prefer weekday evening gaming over weekends.
And again you're making the mistake of talking about "legitimate support" as if buying something is a charity donation you're obligated to make. Why not instead ask why the store is doing such a bad job of convincing people to buy something on its own merits?
There is no obligation to buy in order to play. You could have the best store ever, and if people are entitled to free gaming and bottom dollar purchasing, they will play for free and never shop there.
There is nothing a store can do to change someone's opinion if they are unreasonable entitled customers.
This is the same as people who bring their lunch to cafés with patios and then want to sit outside and use the patio without patronizing the restaurant providing the space. Can you get away with it? Maybe, do you ruin it for everyone else? Yes. It isn't a charity, it is not being a dishonest disgusting mooch, like stealing sodas from fast food restaurants or taking up table space at a bar with music and drinking water and bread so you can hear the music but not buy any food or tip your waiter.
The store provides a service, the service is good, I patronize the store. If you can't afford to tip 20% you don't go out to eat. If you can't afford to pay where you play, you don't game in their store.
Just because there are horrible selfish people who abuse the system doesn't mean I am going to agree that they are correct in saying "it isn't my fault, they need to do more." At some point customers cross lines, and become unreasonable, and those people need to be thrown out. If is eye a customer abusing a retailer, I will all them on it because the truth is their actions take money out of my pocket and impact me. I will say and do what a store wishes they could if the situation arises.
If you are gaming for free in a FLGS and not purchasing there, you are a bad person and are dishonest and playing on my dime. You should be removed if you make a pattern of it.
Ahh, a capitalist I see. Listen, there is more to being an FLGS than just making money off of every customer that comes in every time he does so. That's what GW stores do and they aren't exactly popular for it. Stores need a community around them to thrive since they are selling a social experience basically. Restaurants are selling food so they legitimately have a reason not to want people to bring their own food.
To elaborate more on my point, if you want to sell a social experience you need to be supportive of it. Those "mooches" you call them? They are there playing the game you want to sell people on. When potential customers see them play they will want to come back to play them with the product they bought. And you know what happens when they come back and play? They buy some more. If no one is playing your game then you might as well just get rid of your tables and just be a regular store.
Now, if the store is short on table space then I understand a P2P model because it makes sure that people who support your store get rewarded for it. But if there is space a-plenty then you are only hurting your own sales by making your customers pay for whats freely available.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
Technically none of us are profitable. That's the message I'm getting here, anyway. You can spend literally hundreds of dollars on mostly wargaming products over the course of several months (like I apparently do, with our store's new loyalty program we get a $10 coupon for every $100 we spend, and I've earned a lot of $10 coupons in the roughly 5-6 months it's been active), and all your money means jack gak to the store because you're still outspent by all the card gamers. nkelsch is saying wargamers aren't profitable enough period, moochers or not.
If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Yeah but I find it (at least in my area) it doesn't hurt the store by having wargames there since both can play at the same time without magic players being turned away. How profitable are other wargames (BA/FoW etc)? Because at my store BA is seeing a rise in popularity.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
Im loving the fact people are making assumptions about this that and the other, then freak out when the other party makes an assumption. How about people deal with facts rather than what they just made up to fit in with their view.
Our local club charges for tables and sells product. they are doing well. Some dont and are doing well. So i think its fair to say both have their place and you have to see whats best for your own shop
Lutharr101 wrote: gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
You've got that the wrong way around, I am under no obligation to buy from a local store, I owe them nothing and there is no reason I should buy at 10% off rather than 25% off online.
If they have gaming space then suddenly there is an incentive to go there rather than buying online, but if I have to pay to use the tables then why should I feel bad buying online then paying to play? I'm sure the store doesn't want it that way and will lose money if people do that but THEY are the ones creating that arrangement by making people pay to play.
It's all well and good to say we are entitled for wanting free table space but there is no ing way a store is entitled to my business if it can't provide services or prices equal to or better than the internet or other stores.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/02 03:24:20
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Lutharr101 wrote: gaming tables aint some god given right. Think people need to realise that when they make their purchase there is nothing on their recipt that states that you now get to make demands (other than the product the sold you works).
Likewise, the store doesn't have a god-given right to have me buy stuff from them. If they want to charge for table space then I have every right to consider that poor service and take my money to their competition.
Sidstyler wrote: If you don't switch to Magic you're still killing your store.
This raises a pretty good point: unlike GW stores most FLGS sell more than just miniatures. So a player might play every week and not ever buy anything for 40k, but they like the community at the store and keep coming back. So when that player buys the nice profitable MTG cards they're doing it at "their" store and not elsewhere. Now if you declare that player to be an unprofitable leech and drive them away they'll be over at some other store when they decide to get back into MTG and start buying the most profitable items in the store. Then of course there's the other players you've driven away because you're shrinking the pool of miniatures players, and those other players might also decide to buy other stuff.
As a certain successful store owner said, the longer a person is in your store the more likely it is that they will buy something.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
jonolikespie wrote: If they have gaming space then suddenly there is an incentive to go there rather than buying online, but if I have to pay to use the tables then why should I feel bad buying online then paying to play?.
A simple token system means you don't have to pay. So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play. The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case. With a token system the only ones affected are moochers. If that's not you then you've nothing to complain about. If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
What is best in life?
To wound enemy units, see them driven from the table, and hear the lamentations of their player.
knas ser wrote: So long as you are buying it's free. As you claim you're buying then it's free to play.
Assuming you're buying enough. And it isn't free because I'm paying an extra 20% or more to buy at the store instead of online. The only question here is whether it's worth paying that extra 20% to get access to a gaming table.
The only scenario in which you have to pay is one in which none of you (the group that wants to pay) are buying things which is what you say is nit the case.
Unless you're buying things that aren't expensive enough to get you tokens, or not buying anything right now because you're waiting for your new codex and saving your money for the new releases, or your friend is buying stuff but saving their tokens to play someone else who also needs them.
If it is, then the store owes you nothing.
Likewise, I owe the store nothing. If they insist on charging to use their gaming tables I'll just lower my opinion of them appropriately to reflect their poor service and take my money to the competing store that offers free gaming space. Even if I'm buying enough to get the tokens I'll do it as a matter of principle.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
who charges for table space just to prove a point, even when it isn't paying your bills. Good luck keeping customer loyalty with that attitude.
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
