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I've got some serious problems as a DA player to cope with these.
Well, part due to my own stupidity and part to a lack of models to counter them (still mostly DV Set DA's). I learned the painful way that anything in Power Armor just drops dead.
I don't know the specifics (I don't play CSM neither do I own the codex to look it up)... but afaik these guys fielded against me are a 10 man squad with 2 Blastmasters and the rest Sonic Blasters. Plus they got Mark of Slaneesh (hope I got this right) from a dude which conveys FNP.
Well, since I already established that any kind of Marine is just not cutting it, I tried my DW termies.
Didn't fare better. Even with DW Assault, he just shrugs of most of the wounds, turns around and rolls like 18 attacks which, with my luck, kill more than half of the 5 Termies I currently have. Not working either.
So I need something to reliably toast these guys, since they are the greatest threat (together with a Defiler) that I need answers for.
They tend to stand really packed, full of themselves, trying to get the best LOS possible on rooftops.
So I at first figured a cheap, nice Whirlwind would do the trick.. But after Scatter, 4+ to wound, 3+ armor and 4+FNP... Nope, not killing them anytime.
Then I figured... well, maybe a Str10, Blast 5 to the face from a Vindicator? Whelp, 24" range is the issue I already suffer with Tacs... Getting shot down from 48"-72" wont do it here, too.
Ravenwing Bikes to get close? Ignoring cover doesn't help here, alternating with AP3...
Maybe Drop Pod an Assault Squad on top of them to tie em in melee? Well... No assaulting, and shooting Bolt Pistols where Storm Bolters and Assault Cannons fail...

The last thing I can think of is reinforce my DW with more termies. Problem here though is that they are placed mostly at the very end of the playfield, so scattering of the table is quite possible. And that's EXPENSIVE which would likely put smth like a Demon Prince in his hands...

I'm at a loss :/

Hit them with strength 8 weapons as these will ignore fnp (which is only a 5+ btw not 4+).

Other than mass shots will still take them down so maybe consider a few squads of bolters with the banner of devatation or whatever its called?

Or maybe just deep strike a squad of hammer terminators in their faces and then charge them? Or pack them in a crusader or redeemer? The redeemer especially will take them apart with just its flamers.

He can't legally take 2 Blastmasters in a unit of 10, you're only allowed 1 per 10 marines. FnP comes from the Icon, not the mark, so if you can snipe out the iconbearer he loses that annoying FnP roll. His unit can't be cheap, 10 NM 1 Blastmaster 9 Sonicblasters and an icon is over 250pts! He shouldn't be able to shoot you down that much outside of 24" as that's the max range on his sonicblasters, IMO the vindicator is a pretty good choice. I'm not certain but do DA CM get Orbital Bombardment? If so, you could consider running that.

MarsNZ wrote:
He can't legally take 2 Blastmasters in a unit of 10, you're only allowed 1 per 10 marines. FnP comes from the Icon, not the mark, so if you can snipe out the iconbearer he loses that annoying FnP roll. His unit can't be cheap, 10 NM 1 Blastmaster 9 Sonicblasters and an icon is over 250pts! He shouldn't be able to shoot you down that much outside of 24" as that's the max range on his sonicblasters, IMO the vindicator is a pretty good choice. I'm not certain but do DA CM get Orbital Bombardment? If so, you could consider running that.

The FAQ allows 1 every 5 NM now.

Oh, my mistake. That seems reasonable though as it aligns better with the other cult troops - I never field NM personally, only face them from time to time.

The only Str8 Weapons I have access too are either Krak Missiles, Melta and its variants or Lascannons... Neither of which are good at killing 10+ models before he returns shooting :(

Yeah, that would get me to mass fire - problem though is he has AP3 or Ignore Cover. Marines drop like flies, plus they're outranged by 24"...

I considered the termies, but all they do is sit there, bunched up, waiting to be shot at by several blast templates since I can't assault the turn I DS. Plus I can't take advantage of the Vengeful Strike Rule which makes all my ranged weapons twin linked the turn I DS (which, on second thought, isn't that bad since I have PF:CSM anyway...)

LR seems to be my only option... But this thing is costly, both money and pts wise, and I don't fee fit enough with my painting/magnetising/modeling skills to tackle that yet

Edit: Wait, what? 24" Range? I guess I need to take a look in the Codex... Maybe I mix things up here (or, since we both are noobs, play things wrong)
Yes, they are expensive, but they're worth their weight in gold. Currently we are just above 1000pts, so this guys and the defiler are pretty much his entire army. Taking them out is almost a sure win.

Edit 2: Yep, checked the Noise Marines. Vindicator seems good, only the Blast Masters have 48" range. 2 Str 8 Ap 3 blasts that can scatter away and glance at 5, hit at 6 this seems reasonable if I LOS.

TFC x1x2x3!

Forget about S8, they die just like most things do in 40k, to mass fire.

Agreeing with mass fire again. You can't rely on cover against the sonic weapons, but if you can get some units into a good position to open fire on them without exposing yourself much, that would be the way to go. The Land Raider can be a way to do this, but I would suggest playing the terrain to get closer. Getting the drop is important as they will mass fire back when they get the chance. If you don't have much terrain this could be difficult.

The Mark of Slaanesh is default for all noise marines and gives them +1 initiative, so keep that in mind when trying to assault. The banner is Icon of Excess which gives them FNP 5+ as stated before. If you can, position fire to allocate wounds to the Icon and Blastmaster models first. Your opponent will be loathe to lose those models, likely wrapping them in other models, If he doesn't, punish him.

He will lose a bit of fire efficiency if he moves his models due to salvo on the blasters and being unable to snap fire the blastmaster templates. If you can make/entice them to move those models, do so.

I know it's not the most reliable option, but sniper fire has a better than usual chance of taking out the Icon Bearer. No Icon = no FNP.

Then the weight of fire option gets even better...

I see.. But how do I get to mass fire?
The best option for this is massed bolter fire, preferably rapid.
However the NM really excell at ripping me up, and the Blast Masters make getting close (without Rhinos at least), even LOSing, pretty painful.
This and the fact I usually have some BAD luck (always rolling for the "lengthy" setup at the table with 24" between me and him, means I have most likely run 2-4 Rounds with the Tacs to get even in normal range. That and the fact he always goes first and me failing to steal initiative means dead Tacs, which is why I currently favor the Vindicator approach.

OFC I could take the risk of Deep Striking behind his units where is Banner is, but again, this just screams "MISHAP" in my face, which you simply cannot afford since it's about 25-30% of my army...
Plus if I drop a full Tac in Rapid Fire Range I get a total of 1,5 unsaved wounds... and a dead Tac Squad.

I made the "mistake" of bringing 2 full Tac Squads at 1000pts. They make up the bulk of the army and usually just sit there and get shredded, trying to get into firing range... I didn't realise how bad these guys actually are against some setup like this.

Yesterday he brought 3 Chaos Spawns which basically charged from one squad to the other tearing everything apart. Not even beginning with that Defiler and his Battle Cannon...

Noise marines are a solid troop choice, they have a gun that is effective against everything except terminators/land raiders and the regular guys have a sooped up bolter that is good against terminators (and regular infrantry). The flip side is that they are quite expensive.

If you space your guys out properly then the blast masters won't be that painful (way less painful than a hell drake for example).

24" is the real death sphere of the unit and they can't move and fire (their salvo weapons will have range 12" if they move).

So either stand out of range trading firepower until the end of the game and hope to win on objectives or buy a land raider crusader (with it's AP3 flamers) and burn them all to bits.

Tactical squads are not amazing, sadly they are the standard unit from which all other units are measured from i.e. average at everything. Don't bother trying to run into bolter range with tactical squads, just have them hide and hold objectives imo.

I think he means redeemer.

That's the problem.. I don't have anything currently that can fire at them, so I'm forced to advance, which leads to a quick demise. I can't really let him sit there and blast away without fear of reprisal, since he has the superior firepower at range.

Defiler 72", Blast 5
Noise Marines, 2x Blast 3...

I would keep losing guys and being passive.

I COULD ofc get 2 Whirlwinds, which could, in theory, hit him from behind LOS, but again, with 3+ AS and 5+ FNP thats not going to do much. If the Defiler rounds a corner, they are done for.

I feel like I really need to give you some more info.
I ofc can't, by the point, give you what my opponent plays, but I can guestimate.

HQ:
Lucius the Eternal

Standard
10 Noise marines, 2 Blastmasters, Icon of Excess
6 CSM

Other:
Defiler with twin TLAutocannon, Energy-Whippy-Thing
3 Chaos Spawns
3 Obliterators

vs me:

HQ:
Librarian, Mastery lvl 2

Troops:
2x 10 Tac Squad
1 Plasmagun, 1 Plasmacannon /w Vet Sarge, Plasma Pistol
1 Melta, 1 Heavy Bolter /w Vetsarge, Combimelta

Elite:
5 DW Terminators
Assault Cannon
Chainfist

Fast Attack:
3 Ravenwing Bikes /w Vet Sarge, Chainsword
Plasmathrower

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad, 2x Las, 2x Rocket

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line /w Quad Flak

I just don't have the firepower to deal with his stuff, so my current plan is to get a Razorback /w TL LAscannons, board the Melta Tac Squad in there to "hunt" the defiler and use the Vindicator to "hunt" the Noise Marines.
If I remove the 2nd Tac Squad I'm close to the same points, even a bit lower.

If he hasn't bought extra close combat weapons then get the bikes in on him. You'll probably lose one to overwatch, but once you get into the combat you're going to be able to tie them up for 3-4 rounds of combat, assuming averages.

The point is not to kill them with that charge, the point is to stop his lynchpin unit shooting for long enough to bring the rest of your army into position to put the pain on them from rapid fire range without eating a ton of casualties on the way in.

NM's excel at 24", so you keep your units at 25" until the bikes make it in, and then use the time the bikes are tarpitting them to close to rapid fire distance, where you'll significantly reduce that range advantage.

If you don't want to risk moving your tac squads in on them, then deep strike the terms nearby while the bikes are tying them up so that you can charge them in once the bikes are dead.

The unit he's using is worth almost 300 points. He can not afford to have it not shooting all game. Deny him the ability to shoot - Doesn't matter whether they are dead at the end of the game or not.

edit: This assumes he is not putting Lucius in the unit. If Lucius is there then your only real option using the list you have with as little modifications as possible is to get a Vindicator into it.

Good tip! Never thought of it that way... I might even be lucky and kill the icon! Lucius usually is with the CSM, so no threat there. Its usually best to let that guy run around the field looking for something to fight
Will be tricky, since I need to cross the entire battlefield and LOS the Blastmasters, the NM AND the Defiler.
Will def. try that till I get the Vindicator bought, assembled and painted.

I'm definately going to change that list, those DV models aren't cutting it for me. Just not specialised enough..
I'm however loathe to buy models im never going to use or shelve, so I'm slowly building up with my experience.

*cough* thunder fire cannon *cough*

DA's dont have access to Thunderfires sadly, would require an allied detachement...

Thairne wrote:
Good tip! Never thought of it that way... I might even be lucky and kill the icon! Lucius usually is with the CSM, so no threat there. Its usually best to let that guy run around the field looking for something to fight
Will be tricky, since I need to cross the entire battlefield and LOS the Blastmasters, the NM AND the Defiler.
Will def. try that till I get the Vindicator bought, assembled and painted.

I'm definately going to change that list, those DV models aren't cutting it for me. Just not specialised enough..
I'm however loathe to buy models im never going to use or shelve, so I'm slowly building up with my experience.

If your opponent is willing to let you proxy some models in to test out models go for it. It's just like giving a car a test drive.

Thairne wrote:
Good tip! Never thought of it that way... I might even be lucky and kill the icon! Lucius usually is with the CSM, so no threat there. Its usually best to let that guy run around the field looking for something to fight
Will be tricky, since I need to cross the entire battlefield and LOS the Blastmasters, the NM AND the Defiler.
Will def. try that till I get the Vindicator bought, assembled and painted.

I'm definately going to change that list, those DV models aren't cutting it for me. Just not specialised enough..
I'm however loathe to buy models im never going to use or shelve, so I'm slowly building up with my experience.

You only need to dodge LoS for one turn. You should pretty comfortably be able to get a turn 2 charge off with bikes.

You *might* be able to actually walk the Terms into combat if I'm working my numbers/model placement correctly.

In theory you want your bike layout to be 2 in the front with one between those two at max coherency in the rear. The centre rear one keeps the two on the outer flanks in coherency, and you want those 2 in the front to roughly equally be the closest to the unit. You'll lose one to overwatch, which you take from the front, and when you make the charge and force him to pile in to the rear bike you essentially can buy 3" of free effective movement for the walking Terms, since you're drawing the NM's closer to them.

Assuming you start the Terms 24" away from the NM's at deployment, you can move 6", run 3-4" on average, and the following turn you'll move another 6, giving you a rough total of 15-16" movement. Using the bike placement to draw the NM's 3" closer when they pile in to the bikes would put your Terms 6-7" away, giving you a chance at a turn 2 charge with them (no reason not to try, he can't overwatch you any more) or at least guaranteeing you a turn 3 charge with them (which is exactly what you'd have if you deepstrike them turn 2 anyway, but you now have more control over where they end up, since you're not reliant on a good scatter). You could probably even get away without running the Terms turn one, since you can probably guarantee a turn 3 charge without it.

If you can successfully pull that off (and it's going to be reasonably straightfoward as long as you're not playing on planet bowling ball) then your Terms will tie up the squad for the rest of the game unless he bails them out with something. Either way, you've successfully neutered the NM's, which frees up the rest of your army to kill what remains of his pathetic forces.

And that's the problem with lynchpin units :p

What is wrong with the ol' Vindicator? It kills power armor marines dead.

I thought he had those NM on some upper level of a ruin, so no charging with a bike. Equip them with plasma, he can't make all FNP saves. Drop a S10 large blast on them, ie. that vindicator

2 blastmasters, 3 oblits and a battlecannon is not too much shooting at 1k points.

The trouble is your army isn't very competative, vindicator kills triple the marines that a whirlwind does. If you go closer you will die. Period. Oblits spawn and sonic blasters will destroy you.

It can be hard to let to of those cool models but:
You need a generically better da list, not a specific counter to X

Thank you Ap0k, thats some excellent strategic advice!

Yes, I know it sucks. All I got is from the DV Box Set, plus an added Tac (to fulfill the FoC in noobish mind).
It simply does not have the firepower required and I am willing to upgrade/change models. I'm gonna magnetise everything from now on, so I'm a bit more free in this regard.
But its better to know WHAT to buy beforehand
I had a 2k DA List in the appropriate forum, but it got no replys (understandably )

If I remove a Tac, add a Razorback and a Vindicator I have way more threats and firepower. Doesn't mean I shouldn't go and try the strategic advice I got here And once those are done I'll see what I need next... Prolly a bike for my Libby and a RW Command Squad. Those Plasma Talons seem nice
He likes the NM very much, so having a counter to those is in order. So if noone goes "OMG VINDICATORS SUCK!!!" I'll get one of those as my next investment.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the awesome Standard of Devastation. It makes all your boltguns within 6" Salvo 2/4. It can only be placed on a command squad though and is carried by a model, which means it is snipable.

If money wasn't an issue, I'd say get a LRC, hide your command squad inside and surround it with bikes, who will always get to shoot 4x at 24", since bike are relentless. With the LRC and only 10 bikes that's 64 TL boltgun shots a turn at 24". Mass fire ftw.

Since money is an issue... Tac squads can benefit from the Standard as well, but must remain immobile. Buy Belial. Congrats, your termies are now a DW command squad! Add a random banner to one of them, he's now the guy with the Standard.
Get your Tacs midfield in rhinos, drop them off. Have Belial with DW command squad deep strike in between them (scatterless). Blast away.

The Vindicator is a good pick too. If you go that way, I'd suggest getting a pair.

Well its less money than "feth, I screwed upthat LR...!" scary moments
Whats stopping me from LR is the cost of them. If I add a LR., he adds a Demon Prince, and since I'm already "behind" in competiveness I need to get my gak straight in this bracket before I go up to the expensive (pointswise) stuff. My opponent has some more (not too many though) belts under his vest and he's the "buy now, paint later" type, so he's simply ahead in experience and therefore in power. Yes, I'm one of those that does not buy models if theres something left to assemble and paint
I'm pretty sure I'll get me some LR'S as soon as I become confident enough in magnetizing and painting

Dakkabanner was proposed, but it fails at the inherent problem that is the NM and consorts... They simply are better than my tacs. Since I want to go the Azrael route of Greenwing Belial isnt that attractive... For now. I def. plan to "branch out" into specialised Wings later in.
That Banner cought my eye from the very first second I read about it.

Vindicators seem to fit the current bill the best, so I'll grab one (or 2) after I finish my current To-Do, Razorback and a Quad Gun.

So budget ways to make your army better?

I'd say get some second hand rhinos and maybe go double plasma on the tac squads? Just drive around 6" a turn shooting plasma at folk.

Can da combat squad? What about Razorbacks? Or are ALP these things csm only? If you don't have the da codex or a strong attarchment to them I'd maybe suggest going codex: space marines instead. Da always seems a bit lack luster

DA can combat squad and a Razorback is just being assembled Waiting for magnets to put the final assembly to it.
'As I just wrote, I'm old enough to earn my own money and I'm not married, so I can in theory afford a gakload of models
Its rather POINTSwise budget ways as I explained above.
I like to grow my army with my experience and my skill and not have a ton of models I hours later find out just don't work for me

Ok, so one thing to bear in mind is if you just play your same opponent over and over you both invariably list tailor (even unknowingly) so it is good to play other people too.

That said here are some tips, thinking about it more carefully:

1 a psyker with a force mace can force kill spawn (3+ to hit 4+ to wound and instant death when you activate it). Give him some terminator armour and he can tank spawn hits if he needs to.

40k kind of favours spam and there aren't that many units that are totally useless (at least for marine armies) that you can't at least convert into something that isn't completely useless. So 10 men tactical squad can combat squad for 4 guys + heavy weapon standing at the back and 4+plasma gun + razorback zooming around pwning stuff (at 6" per turn).

You could get a skyshield, that is 75 points and gives you a 4++ vs shooting. Add to that you can park your razorbacks under the struts and get a 4+ cover save (or possibly 3+ for purpose built defence). Don't get within 18" of an obliterator with a vehicle unless you are planning to kill it that turn since it can move 6" and multi melta you. Generally obliterators are very effective at 24" and super awesome 12" (twin linked plasma rapid fire / multi melta). So castling up and standing back can be a good tactic especially if he is dividing his forces (oblits and spawn pushing forward). One squad of noise marines with 2 blast masters will kill at most 2 men a turn if you space out properly, 1 a turn if your on a skyshield. Remember you can move your guys out 2" from each other while maintaining coherency.

I don't want to play him again and again, but currently it just makes the most sense I'm slowly connecting to other people, and that's why i dont want to overspecialise.

Interesting. Libbys come with a Force weapon akin to the codex, so I can choose which one I want, right?
Force Sword seems to be the best purpose for this, since I don't want Str, but AP3 in case of marines and a higher initiative.
My original plan was to put him on a bike, but since I want to go Divination (ofc) that wasn't as effective as I thought.
Good stuff, might very well do this as an alternative. Also allows me to DS his NM.

Razorback doesn't have fire points as far as I know, so I have to disembark (which I already plan to kill his Defiler with). Doesn't stop me from shooting up Spawn and Oblits at 48" range tho.
I feel like I'm getting a grip on it, ty

So this is my revised list I plan to field the next time (proxying some stuff):

HQ:
Librarian, Mastery lvl 2, Terminator Armor, Force Sword, Combiflamer (sit back, cast blessings on Devastators and stop the Chaos Spawn)

Troops:
2x Tac Squad 5
1 Plasmacannon /w Vet Sarge (defend homeobjective)

1 Melta, /w Vetsarge, Combimelta, Meltabombs
Razorback, TL Lascannon, add. armor, stormbolter (hunt vehicles)

Elite:
5 DW Terminators (DS and attack NM)
Assault Cannon
Chainfist

Fast Attack:
3 Ravenwing Bikes /w Vet Sarge, Chainsword (bind NM and serve as a beacon if necessary/possible)
Plasmathrower

Heavy Support:
Devastator Squad, 2x Las, 2x Rocket (shoot stuff!)
Vindicator, Stormbolter, add. armor (close up on a flank and tear the NM/Defiler a new one)

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line /w Quad Flak (provide cover from OOR of the blastmasters)

This puts me actually at 9 points LESS than my prev list.

So in general I want my 2 Vehicles close up on the Defiler/the NMs, have the Devastators defend with the Libby and a heavy weapon tac, while my bikes and Termies try to get to grips with the noise marines until the vehicles reinforce. I just need to make sure the spawns dont tie up my vehicles in CC. Oh and I got it wrong... its not Obliterators, but Mutilators. So I need to stay the HECK away from them