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Im in the process of re painting my god awful csm marines to a newer better paintjob and came across a marine made with a heavy bolter. Looking through the codex I see the Autocannon is the same point cost (well for CSM troops anyway). Would I better off converting my heavy bolters to autocannons or would I be better off with the heavy bolters still?

My gut feeling says the Autocannon for the higher strength shots having a higher chance to punch through a bigger variety of foes.

But yeah, what do people think?

Autocannons give you more options. You lose some infantry killing power, but gain the capacity to hurt light armor and MCs

Back in days of yore, when all this was fields (of blood) I used to strap an Autocannon onto any Chaos Marine capable of lifting one.

I've always preferred the AC over the HB. Okay, so it's one less shot, but the AC can pop light armour.

Also (don't have any reference material to hand at work) isn't the AC longer ranged?

Autocannons have 48" range instead of 36", deal more wounds against anything T5 or higher, and are always better against vehicles.

Take the autocannon.

Autocannons.
longer range
one less shot
hurt light armored vehicles
hurt MC's

There's really no point to having a heavy bolter, maybe unless you know you are fighting nothing but footslogging orks or tyranids without MCs...not likely. AC every time.

First, when you say 'One less shot', it's important to realize that's the HB has 50% more shots than the AC. That can be quite a few shots when spread over multiple heavy weapon wielders.

A more practical application is to look at how many wounds each weapon will deliver against specific targets. For this exercise, lets assume you have 5 havocs with 4 heavy weapons.

Seekers
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 4.44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 2.96 wounds

Marines
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.77 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Daemon Princes
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.33 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Hive Tyrants
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .89 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.18 wounds

Wraithknights
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = .59 wounds

Shown as a Percent
This shows the effective difference between the HB and the AC against equal targets. As you can see, the HB wins out over targets of T3 and T4, but falls short when used against targets of T5 or greater. The AC is also better vs vehicles. So which is better ? Well -- what do you see a lot more of at your games?

First off the bat I don't use havocs, at the moment anyway, due to being a new collector and the new havoc models are fine cast. What I'm talking about is attaching an autocannon/heavy bolter to a normal CSM squad.

However that is still very useful analysis!

AC all day everyday. I'd actually use marine devs if I could get autocannons.

 captsabre wrote:
However that is still very useful analysis!

Thanks.
Your percentage of effect is the same across the board, if you have 1 or 4 heavy weapons.

Now, personally I perfer autocannons. My armies tend to have enough anti-infantry firepower to where I don't need to scale up on more. However, your may operate differently

autocannons, unless you KNOW your opponenet is bringing a lot of T3 guys that you are going to want to fire your guns at.

 Exergy wrote:
autocannons, unless you KNOW your opponenet is bringing a lot of T3 guys that you are going to want to fire your guns at.

Yeah I tend to fight a lot of T4 guys rather then T3.

Autocannons do feel about 5X cooler as well which does help.

 captsabre wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
autocannons, unless you KNOW your opponenet is bringing a lot of T3 guys that you are going to want to fire your guns at.

Yeah I tend to fight a lot of T4 guys rather then T3.

Autocannons do feel about 5X cooler as well which does help.

Plus you can use the barrel from the Heldrake model (the one that is not the Baleflamer) to convert the HB into nifty looking autocannon.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Spoiler:

First, when you say 'One less shot', it's important to realize that's the HB has 50% more shots than the AC. That can be quite a few shots when spread over multiple heavy weapon wielders.

A more practical application is to look at how many wounds each weapon will deliver against specific targets. For this exercise, lets assume you have 5 havocs with 4 heavy weapons.

Seekers
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 4.44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 2.96 wounds

Marines
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.77 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Daemon Princes
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.33 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Hive Tyrants
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .89 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.18 wounds

Wraithknights
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = .59 wounds

Shown as a Percent
This shows the effective difference between the HB and the AC against equal targets. As you can see, the HB wins out over targets of T3 and T4, but falls short when used against targets of T5 or greater. The AC is also better vs vehicles. So which is better ? Well -- what do you see a lot more of at your games?

Great breakdown, Labmouse. I would only add that Autocannons are sexier, but only by a little.

 kronk wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Spoiler:

First, when you say 'One less shot', it's important to realize that's the HB has 50% more shots than the AC. That can be quite a few shots when spread over multiple heavy weapon wielders.

A more practical application is to look at how many wounds each weapon will deliver against specific targets. For this exercise, lets assume you have 5 havocs with 4 heavy weapons.

Seekers
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 4.44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (2/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 2.96 wounds

Marines
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.77 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Daemon Princes
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/2 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = 1.33 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (5/6 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.48 wounds

Hive Tyrants
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .89 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = 1.18 wounds

Wraithknights
HB : (2/3 to hit) * (1/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (12 shots) = .44 wounds
AC : (2/3 to hit) * (2/3 to wound) * (1/3 failed save) * (8 shots) = .59 wounds

Shown as a Percent
This shows the effective difference between the HB and the AC against equal targets. As you can see, the HB wins out over targets of T3 and T4, but falls short when used against targets of T5 or greater. The AC is also better vs vehicles. So which is better ? Well -- what do you see a lot more of at your games?

Great breakdown, Labmouse. I would only add that Autocannons are sexier, but only by a little.

You have tough standards good sir, that is way sexier

I would only take Heavy Bolters for one reason and one reason only and that is if I want Havocs shooting down squishy's. Otherwise, there is no reason to take those weapons, ever.

Simply put, they're heavy weapons which means your CSM that's on the move isn't going to be shooting with that any more than snapshots. Maybe as an objective holder, but there are way better weapons out there to do that job. For starters, a flamer. lol

So yeah, Autocannons all the way, but I wouldn't be putting them on a CSM squad anyways.

CSM squad? I am of the mind that Plasma, Melta or Flamer is the best way to go for them since you want them moving around more and putting those rapid fires down range.

Havocs on the other hand? Oh hell yeah deck them out with autocannons if you're infantry hunting. Personally, (whenever I get them, because I'm in proxy right now) I'm loading mine up with Lazcannons and seeing what they can do. I know the dps is better with things like an Autocannon, but I like the idea of sending 5 S10 AP2 shots 72" across the board and watching everything melt. +__+

That's just me though. Probably not as combat effective, but then I got other things to pick up the slack there.

Oh, missile launchers are also a good swiss-army knife for Havocs. Land, Air, or Sea, they'll put a hole in it. >D

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I would only take Heavy Bolters for one reason and one reason only and that is if I want Havocs shooting down squishy's. Otherwise, there is no reason to take those weapons, ever.

Simply put, they're heavy weapons which means your CSM that's on the move isn't going to be shooting with that any more than snapshots. Maybe as an objective holder, but there are way better weapons out there to do that job. For starters, a flamer. lol

I totally see your point, but because im early on in my Chaos Career I dont have access to multiple plasmas and flamers at the moment. I kinda also like the idea of a heavy machine gun of some sort in my squads (looks and fluff wise), especially the ones that are going to be holding a point and still want to add to the fight at longer ranges.

When I have enough heavy weapons marines ill throw them together into some havocs for some fun BWAHAHAHA etc

Autocannons all the way, one of the best weapons in the game.
They can penetrate AV12 tanks like the popular Serpents while heavy bolters cannot even scratch them.

Here is something to keep in mind for you...
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440339a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

If you don't mind a little increase in cost for a better model (and dealing with shipping and exchange rates), go to Forge World for some weapon options...
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_Heresy/Legiones_Astartes/Space_Marine_Legion_Army_List/LEGION_HEAVY_SUPPORT/Legion_Heavy_Support_Squad/LEGION_AUTOCANNON_SET.html

You can also keep an eye out on Ebay and even Facebook for bitz traders and the like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind the exchange rate thing, I see your in England. Also FW is free shipping till Christmas.

 captsabre wrote:

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
I would only take Heavy Bolters for one reason and one reason only and that is if I want Havocs shooting down squishy's. Otherwise, there is no reason to take those weapons, ever.

Simply put, they're heavy weapons which means your CSM that's on the move isn't going to be shooting with that any more than snapshots. Maybe as an objective holder, but there are way better weapons out there to do that job. For starters, a flamer. lol

I totally see your point, but because im early on in my Chaos Career I dont have access to multiple plasmas and flamers at the moment. I kinda also like the idea of a heavy machine gun of some sort in my squads (looks and fluff wise), especially the ones that are going to be holding a point and still want to add to the fight at longer ranges.

When I have enough heavy weapons marines ill throw them together into some havocs for some fun BWAHAHAHA etc

Hey, I'm right there with you. I started early this year and all my CSM's amount two are two Dark Vengeance boxes, a Heldrake, a Dark Apostle and Sorcerer. lol As such, I've been proxying my Chosen for Havocs to see how well they would work.

On a side note though, I saw a CSM player go into a game of Kill Team, and he took Havocs with Heavy Bolters. At that time, I'd say that is the best time to take both of those choices, Havoc + Heavy Bolter. Autocannon would have still been better, but for Kill Team he was relying on volume of fire to get the job done.