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 ansacs wrote:
Well some of the eldar have changed. I have no idea what eldar were capable of during the war in heaven. In fact pre fall eldar seem to be capable of leaps and bound more than post fall eldar though how much of that is holding back so she who thirsts doesn't eat them is the question?

Either way we agree that the eldar genetic structure is mutable as the DE have definitely changed it; through breeding or other means.

The DE havent changed, or at least not as a species genetically. It has only been 10,000 years and some of them, like Vect were alive to witness the fall.

They have been surgically altered, but they havent evolved.

knas ser wrote:


I remember when all the modern Eldar background was born (aspects, farseers, wraithbone, et al.). I think White Dwarf 127 was the big issue with it. Anyway, back then the situation with eldar and psykers was as follows: All eldar are psychically capable. Most avoid developing that side of themselves assiduously because to open your mind to the Warp is to open yourself to being devoured by Slaanesh. Those that chose the Path of the Seer, no longer used psychic powers in the same ways a human psyker would. Despite the great power of the Eldar mind, it would destroy them. Instead, they developed the system of runes. Runes were symbols of wraithbone (a psycho-active material, grown rather than carved). They let an eldar manipulate the energies of the warp indirectly, rather than by using their mind in direct connection. The original fluff actually described the runes as being like "fuses". They'd channel the energy without running the risk of destroying the Eldar. That's why you had things like Rune Armour and other rune references in the Eldar fluff.

So whilst there may well have been powerful artifacts from before the Fall, perhaps most simply cannot be used without the Eldar being consumed by Slaanesh.

In the original fluff (not sure if this still holds), warlocks were seers who had previously walked the path of the warrior (i.e. they had been part of an Aspect) and when there was great need, they would return to their shrines and, rather than don the former aspect armour, don the shrines special warlock robes, psy-helmet and rune armour. The path of the warrior (aspects) was quite a dangerous one to the Eldar, who are a race of extreme obsessives. Many ordinary Eldar citizens would shy away from that path because of the risk of losing themselves in it. Exarchs were tragic figures who had become so consumed with their path that they would never leave it, slowly embodying their aspect more and more and donning the ancient armour of former exarchs, containing the spirit stones of those former exarchs so that all their experience and knowledge blended. Guardians were actually former Aspect warriors who when there was need to defend the very craftworld itself, would fight. Without the psychological immersion of dividing their mind into the role of the aspect with the rituals and armour of their Aspect, they were no longer quite as effective (or well-equipped), but they still retained enough of their skills to be as deadly warriors as other race's typical soldiery.

Farseers were the last path that anyone would ever take. An Eldar could walk the path of the seer for a time and then move on to become something else (perhaps a wraith singer to craft the wraithbone that their ships themselves were made of), but once a seer started down the path of the Farseer, joining their peers, they would never move on. Eventually they would sit and meditate on future paths for years, even decades, dwelling in crystal gardens at the center of the craftworld, until even their bodies began to turn to crystal, fusing with the wraithbone core of the craftworld itself.

Anyway, just sharing some of what I remember from the early eldar fluff. There were Eldar before that big renewal, in the original book, but they were nowhere near as developed. Old Ones were still Slaan back then (or rather the Slaan were the devolved remnants of their race) and the Eldar were mostly just cruel and arcane pirates. With that issue of White Dwarf, the Fall, the farseers, the aspects, et. al, was born. Best issue they ever published.

Wow cool. Where the Dark Eldar mentioned in that issue, or the first one? When was DE first brought in?

 DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr wrote:

knas ser wrote:


I remember when all the modern Eldar background was born (aspects, farseers, wraithbone, et al.). I think White Dwarf 127 was the big issue with it. Anyway, back then the situation with eldar and psykers was as follows: All eldar are psychically capable. Most avoid developing that side of themselves assiduously because to open your mind to the Warp is to open yourself to being devoured by Slaanesh. Those that chose the Path of the Seer, no longer used psychic powers in the same ways a human psyker would. Despite the great power of the Eldar mind, it would destroy them. Instead, they developed the system of runes. Runes were symbols of wraithbone (a psycho-active material, grown rather than carved). They let an eldar manipulate the energies of the warp indirectly, rather than by using their mind in direct connection. The original fluff actually described the runes as being like "fuses". They'd channel the energy without running the risk of destroying the Eldar. That's why you had things like Rune Armour and other rune references in the Eldar fluff.

So whilst there may well have been powerful artifacts from before the Fall, perhaps most simply cannot be used without the Eldar being consumed by Slaanesh.

In the original fluff (not sure if this still holds), warlocks were seers who had previously walked the path of the warrior (i.e. they had been part of an Aspect) and when there was great need, they would return to their shrines and, rather than don the former aspect armour, don the shrines special warlock robes, psy-helmet and rune armour. The path of the warrior (aspects) was quite a dangerous one to the Eldar, who are a race of extreme obsessives. Many ordinary Eldar citizens would shy away from that path because of the risk of losing themselves in it. Exarchs were tragic figures who had become so consumed with their path that they would never leave it, slowly embodying their aspect more and more and donning the ancient armour of former exarchs, containing the spirit stones of those former exarchs so that all their experience and knowledge blended. Guardians were actually former Aspect warriors who when there was need to defend the very craftworld itself, would fight. Without the psychological immersion of dividing their mind into the role of the aspect with the rituals and armour of their Aspect, they were no longer quite as effective (or well-equipped), but they still retained enough of their skills to be as deadly warriors as other race's typical soldiery.

Farseers were the last path that anyone would ever take. An Eldar could walk the path of the seer for a time and then move on to become something else (perhaps a wraith singer to craft the wraithbone that their ships themselves were made of), but once a seer started down the path of the Farseer, joining their peers, they would never move on. Eventually they would sit and meditate on future paths for years, even decades, dwelling in crystal gardens at the center of the craftworld, until even their bodies began to turn to crystal, fusing with the wraithbone core of the craftworld itself.

Anyway, just sharing some of what I remember from the early eldar fluff. There were Eldar before that big renewal, in the original book, but they were nowhere near as developed. Old Ones were still Slaan back then (or rather the Slaan were the devolved remnants of their race) and the Eldar were mostly just cruel and arcane pirates. With that issue of White Dwarf, the Fall, the farseers, the aspects, et. al, was born. Best issue they ever published.

Wow cool. Where the Dark Eldar mentioned in that issue, or the first one? When was DE first brought in?

Dark Eldar were introduced significantly later. In the very early WH40K (original Rogue Trader rulebook), there were elder, but there was none of this stuff. There might have been Craftworlds, I don't recall, but if there were they were nowhere near as detailed as what came later, not even remotely. My first memory of craftworlds was with this issue and the grand elder revision - the first time they'd ever been given a proper treatment. There were references to the Maiden Worlds - worlds seeded by the Eldar long ago to produce habital worlds, so there may or may not have been references to the Exodites, but the Exodites proper came in with the Space Marine game which was the follow up game to Adeptus Titanicus and the first "proper" Epic scale version of WH40K. There had never been a place for the Exodites in the game before, but with Space Marine there was suddenly a need for more big Eldar units. So you got the Exodite Knights, and with them arrived some more of the fleshed out background of the Exodites. Before the Fall, some Eldar had either seen what was coming or simply turned their back on the wild decadence out of disgust. They left even before the Craftworlds, and as a counter to the decadence of their race, they willingly chose to live lives of hardship and danger, living on remote Maiden Worlds, sometimes herding the giant lizards on those worlds in machines like small titans (the knights) or sometimes riding the lizards themselves with whom they formed psychic connections. They didn't give up their knowledge of technology, nor necessarily destroyed all their technology. But they lived wild and that life of simplicity and danger preserved them when Slaanesh erupted into the Warp, new born, because their minds, their souls, were so at odds with the self-consuming pleasure and hedonism of Slaanesh.

The Dark Eldar themselves did not appear till much later on. Their first codex was 3rd edition, I recall. They were in many ways already in their current form when added, merely some of the detail was missing. We knew that they constantly worked to feed some dark hunger, as if something greater threatened them if they did not. It was suggested that they fought off consumption by Slaanesh through feeding Her a stream of the psychic energies of their victims.

The background of the Harlequins exists from early in the revised history. The models themselves are very old. I have some of the original ones from over twenty years ago. But there was a lovely story in the revised history of a troupe of Harlequins coming to a craftworld to perform. And during their performance they all stop as one, and bow to a single eldar in the audience. A few of the other eldar recognized him as a quiet engineer who kept mostly to himself. He turned out to be a solitaire. And with him, the Harlequins would perform "The Dance". Harlequins perform many stories, but many Eldar (most Eldar) will never get to see "The Dance" because this is the story of the Fall of the Eldar. And only a Solitaire can perform the roll of Slaanesh without going insane. There are stories of other Harlequins who have tried. And failed. In the description of the dance, the Harlequins begin as the Eldar of old, slowly growing wilder and wilder until Slaanesh, played by the Solitaire, burst forth. He dances amongst the other Eldar, each signifying an Eldar god, an embodiment of an aspect of the Eldar soul, and each dancer he touches, that Harlequins holo-costume grows dim, begins to writhe with disturbing patterns, their movements become sensuous and wrong. Until only one Eldar god is left - the Laughing God, who dances around Slaanesh and the fallen gods eternally.

Hang on. 10,000 years ago? That makes no sense. 10,000 years ago was the end of the great crusade.
That would mean Humans ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology. That would mean eldar ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology.
That would mean humans were reuniting the galaxy into a gigantic galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade. That would mean the eldar had the great galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade.
That would mean during the great crusade Slannesh and the Eye of Terror had not been/had only just been, born. But Lorgar sends Argal Tal into The Eye of Terror, an anomoly described as ancient, and the traitor legions retreat to it after their defeat.
That would mean Eldrad could not have gone to warn Fulgrim, as his whole frikking empire was being sucked into the warp at the time (priorities maybe?).
10,000 years ago is just insanely stupid!

Well technically it would be ~11,000 years ago as it was beginning M.30

The horus heresy was beginning M.31

The current date is end of M.41

The funny thing is that the age where humanity was at it's technological peak was also the age where the eldar ruled the majority of the galaxy and considered humans barely above animals.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Hang on. 10,000 years ago? That makes no sense. 10,000 years ago was the end of the great crusade.
That would mean Humans ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology. That would mean eldar ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology.
That would mean humans were reuniting the galaxy into a gigantic galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade. That would mean the eldar had the great galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade.
That would mean during the great crusade Slannesh and the Eye of Terror had not been/had only just been, born. But Lorgar sends Argal Tal into The Eye of Terror, an anomoly described as ancient, and the traitor legions retreat to it after their defeat.
That would mean Eldrad could not have gone to warn Fulgrim, as his whole frikking empire was being sucked into the warp at the time (priorities maybe?).
10,000 years ago is just insanely stupid!

The Eye of Terror was formed shortly before the great crusade. EoT was early 30m, Crusade was late 30m

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sumeria (the cradle of civilization), was theorized to have been established somewhere around 4000 BC. 6000 years from then is where we are now.

Of course, we have experienced a fair bit of upheaval (The Dark Ages, lost of knowledge and tech, etc), so that could have been a factor.

Of course, the Tau could have experienced similar difficulties in their 6000 year life span.

I hate how this gets spread around. The 'Dark Ages' did not involve any loss of knowledge by us humans, and aren't even refereed to as the 'Dark Ages' by historians since it's an improper term. The Medieval times were far more advanced than the old Roman Empire, and even had better lives compared to what most people incorrectly think. Modern human civilization since Rome hasn't really suffered any stop in momentum. Europe and Asia never decelerated in their advancement of technology.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sumeria (the cradle of civilization), was theorized to have been established somewhere around 4000 BC. 6000 years from then is where we are now.

Of course, we have experienced a fair bit of upheaval (The Dark Ages, lost of knowledge and tech, etc), so that could have been a factor.

Of course, the Tau could have experienced similar difficulties in their 6000 year life span.

I hate how this gets spread around. The 'Dark Ages' did not involve any loss of knowledge by us humans, and aren't even refereed to as the 'Dark Ages' by historians since it's an improper term. The Medieval times were far more advanced than the old Roman Empire, and even had better lives compared to what most people incorrectly think. Modern human civilization since Rome hasn't really suffered any stop in momentum. Europe and Asia never decelerated in their advancement of technology.

The destruction of the library in Alexandria and the fall of the roman empire, caused the loss of some important knowledge (concrete for one).

I remember that the old ones where the slann in the earlier edtions then the slann were created by the old ones.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Sumeria (the cradle of civilization), was theorized to have been established somewhere around 4000 BC. 6000 years from then is where we are now.

Of course, we have experienced a fair bit of upheaval (The Dark Ages, lost of knowledge and tech, etc), so that could have been a factor.

Of course, the Tau could have experienced similar difficulties in their 6000 year life span.

I hate how this gets spread around. The 'Dark Ages' did not involve any loss of knowledge by us humans, and aren't even refereed to as the 'Dark Ages' by historians since it's an improper term. The Medieval times were far more advanced than the old Roman Empire, and even had better lives compared to what most people incorrectly think. Modern human civilization since Rome hasn't really suffered any stop in momentum. Europe and Asia never decelerated in their advancement of technology.

It might help to explain why they are (or were) referred to as the "Dark Ages". They got that name because they were "dark" to us - i.e. we didn't know what was happening in that period. Big stuff, sure, but compared to periods before and after it, there was a massive drop in the information available to historians. They weren't calling it the "grimdark" ages, they were calling it the "hard to see anything" ages. Hardly anyone was writing anything down in Western Europe at the time. In the Roman era, you had continuous histories, written news... many sources to draw on. Hell, we even got useful information from the graffiti in Pompeii. But the Dark Ages? I don't know. People just weren't a very written culture and the feudal societies across much of Western Europe were not big on histories and written culture. Where are the famous plays from that era? The classic texts that everybody knows? They barely exist. Whereas from Ancient Greece onwards, we had lots to draw on. Even Ancient Egypt left us with a lot. Then around the sixth century, the lights go out. They don't really come on again until around five hundred years later.

I'm also going to take some issue with you in your attempt to re-balance conceptions about the Dark Ages being backwards. Though in this instance, I'm happy to be corrected by whatever sources you have. But broadly speaking, the Dark Ages were a step backwards. I certainly do not think that you can call them "far more advanced than the old Roman Empire". There were no great refinements in architecture (merely changes in need that led to some permanent stone fortifications over the expanding roman empire's less permanent ones), science was at a standstill (in Western Europe). Maybe there were the odd advancements in anatomy and a certain amount of religious freedom helped facilitate thought, but I think it's silly to claim that advancement of technology never slowed. There is a very good reason why the Renaissance stands out as a radical change - because it is different to what went before. That's what change is.

Anyway, interested in whatever response you have, but I think you have been much too extreme in your efforts to counter misconceptions about the "Dark Ages."


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 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I remember that the old ones where the slann in the earlier edtions then the slann were created by the old ones.

Actually in the earliest editions, the Slaan were rumoured to be the old ones. In WFRP 1st. ed. the Slaan explicitly were. In the Rogue Trader book, it was implied that they might be.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Hang on. 10,000 years ago? That makes no sense. 10,000 years ago was the end of the great crusade.
That would mean Humans ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology. That would mean eldar ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology.
That would mean humans were reuniting the galaxy into a gigantic galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade. That would mean the eldar had the great galaxy spanning empire during the great crusade.
That would mean during the great crusade Slannesh and the Eye of Terror had not been/had only just been, born. But Lorgar sends Argal Tal into The Eye of Terror, an anomoly described as ancient, and the traitor legions retreat to it after their defeat.
That would mean Eldrad could not have gone to warn Fulgrim, as his whole frikking empire was being sucked into the warp at the time (priorities maybe?).
10,000 years ago is just insanely stupid!

The Fall of the Eldar happens, like, *just* before the GC kicks off. It is, in fact, the very end of The Fall that permits the Great Crusade to begin, because Humanity can now return to inter-stellar travel.

At the beginning of the Great Crusade, the Eye is like 2,000 years old, give or take. That's plenty ancient to humans. After all, 2000 years ago was the Roman Empire, and Jesus would have been a teenager.

I hate how this gets spread around. The 'Dark Ages' did not involve any loss of knowledge by us humans, and aren't even refereed to as the 'Dark Ages' by historians since it's an improper term. The Medieval times were far more advanced than the old Roman Empire, and even had better lives compared to what most people incorrectly think. Modern human civilization since Rome hasn't really suffered any stop in momentum. Europe and Asia never decelerated in their advancement of technology.

Not entirely true. There were several things that Rome had that Europe would not have for a thousand years or more, like running water and indoor plumbing, common literacy, public education, advanced socio-political structures (feudalism is a direct step backwards towards tribalism) and art and architectural designs that would require the Renaissance (the "rebirth") to recover.

 Psienesis wrote:
There were several things that Rome had that Europe would not have for a thousand years or more, like running water and indoor plumbing, common literacy, public education, advanced socio-political structures (feudalism is a direct step backwards towards tribalism) and art and architectural designs that would require the Renaissance (the "rebirth") to recover.

Yeah, but apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

The aqueduct. And the sanitation. And the roads. Irrigation. Medicine... Education... Health. And the wine!

Interestingly enough the recipe for roman concrete was only equaled a few years ago. It was counted as a significant step forward in that field...2000+ years later...

Also keep in mind that the Romans and Greeks had early steam engines. In terms of engineering the Romans and Greeks were way ahead of the "Dark Ages" though anatomy, chemistry, and biosciences did take steps forward these were sporadic and worst of all not widely shared due to poor information flow.

I have always been curious as to how humans and eldar interacted during the dark age of technology? Eldar seem to be ignoring humans and humanity is at the technological peak? It makes you wonder if humans ever tried to move into eldar territory and what stories would come of that? Perhaps none because the eldar foresaw it and stopped it before the idea was even formed.

Regarding the old Eldar lore, knas seer nailed it. The only major thing I can think of that's changed is that Guardians are now an actual militia rather than returning Aspect Warriors.

Earlier on in 40k there were also Chaos Eldar (which were the true Dark Elves analogy, I should add), but these were relegated to crone worlds and eventually their existence as a thing in the fluff is... I'd better leave it to the people who know the fluff better, but I'm right to say that actual chaos worshipping Eldar no longer exist? Eldar has since been essentially stated as being incorruptible (by Chaos influence, not by their own flaws of character, naturally).

Dark Eldar are not much less psychic than craftwold eldar, there is in fact no genetic or physiological(excepting surgical alteration in some subjects) difference between Craftworld, Corsair, Exodite, and dark eldar.

The reason there are no DE psykers is that it is the 1 immutable law of Commaragh that everyone obeys(lest they accidentally let in daemons/she who thirsts).

 Mahtamori wrote:
Regarding the old Eldar lore, knas seer nailed it. The only major thing I can think of that's changed is that Guardians are now an actual militia rather than returning Aspect Warriors.

Earlier on in 40k there were also Chaos Eldar (which were the true Dark Elves analogy, I should add), but these were relegated to crone worlds and eventually their existence as a thing in the fluff is... I'd better leave it to the people who know the fluff better, but I'm right to say that actual chaos worshipping Eldar no longer exist? Eldar has since been essentially stated as being incorruptible (by Chaos influence, not by their own flaws of character, naturally).

Crikey. You've got a good memory! Yeah, there were originally Chaos Eldar. They were mentioned in the original Rogue Trader book, I think. There was no reference to them in the later stuff, I'm pretty sure. I think now it's the case that Eldar are too close to being consumed by Slaanesh to be "Chaos" proper. If Chaos were like sex, then some humans will do more of it and some less, and are affected accordingly. But the elder are metaphorically full-on celibate. There's no middle ground with them. They either keep on their pure and rigorous path, or they lose it completely and bam - Slaanesh eats their soul. The Eldar mind is... intense. Humans live on a hillside, Eldar, a cliff-edge.

 Psienesis wrote:
The aqueduct. And the sanitation. And the roads. Irrigation. Medicine... Education... Health. And the wine!

In addition: the extension of philosophy, the grounding of 'democracy' where every man has a vote (minus women and slaves), heated floors and baths, the longest duration of peace and stability over an area that large in recorded history (granted there was war on its borders but within its borders peace reigned for centuries.). The fall of the roman empire was definitely a step backwards. We lost the ability to bridge rivers with stone, to tile roofs, to create cement on a large scale or to a decent standard (even todays cement is considered inferior to the lost recipie of roman cement),instability reigned throughout europe as we broke down into minor fiefdoms. Longboats became the most advanced ships as the art of shipbuilding took a step backwards. Written language became the monopoly of the very few (ie the church). LIfespans dramatically reduced as 'medicine' actually became counter productive and running water and sanitation was forgotten.

On a seperate note thanks for the info on the fall everyone. It does still make me wonder though, who ruled the galaxy during the dark age of technology? Was it mankind or the eldar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just seen ansacs post about the concrete. I wasn't aware we had equalled it yet. Interesting!

 Hexyn wrote:
So assumedly the Old Ones changed the eldar's biology so that they couldn't evolve and simplify?

What does this even mean?

Heh, Poly Ranger, you must have missed the Monty Python quote going between me and knas ser.

I mean, what you say is true... but his post, and mine which you quoted, are from Monty Python's Life of Brian.

And, as far as the Dark Age of Technology goes... Humanity had a star-spanning empire, but it wasn't the only game in town. There were Xeno Empires This was Humanity's best era (or so they believe), so it could probably be argued that Mankind ruled the galaxy... but our sources on that are rather biased.

 Psienesis wrote:
Heh, Poly Ranger, you must have missed the Monty Python quote going between me and knas ser.

I was wondering if I should clue them in or not.

Poly - we're quoting this at each other: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

Still, great list though!

Haha and I love that movie! Got the python boxed set... as if I missed that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.s. did you know they are doing a comeback tour?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Dark Eldar are not much less psychic than craftwold eldar, there is in fact no genetic or physiological(excepting surgical alteration in some subjects) difference between Craftworld, Corsair, Exodite, and dark eldar.

Agreed, some of the DE have been alive since the fall. Many others have died only to have clones of them reborn in a birthing tube. There has been no change to their genetic makeup.

In fact we dont even know if they are capable of evolving. Things on earth evolve, doesnt mean all life does. Life that was engineered to begin with might stay that way.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Haha and I love that movie! Got the python boxed set... as if I missed that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.s. did you know they are doing a comeback tour?

I'd heard. I await it with some curiosity.

This thread is now making me picture the Emperor's mum leaning out of a palace window on Holy Terra shouting 'He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28historiography%29

Most historians don't use 'Dark Age' as it's inaccurate.

Also, is it definite that literacy was down? If they had developed more advanced ways of writing such as on velum or paper (though paper did come later), those things are more perishable unless you take special care to keep them compared to stone carvings you got in Rome.

 Daba wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_%28historiography%29

Most historians don't use 'Dark Age' as it's inaccurate.

Also, is it definite that literacy was down? If they had developed more advanced ways of writing such as on velum or paper (though paper did come later), those things are more perishable unless you take special care to keep them compared to stone carvings you got in Rome.

The Ancient Romans had velum (which is actually just parchment - prepared animal skin - made specifically from calves) but they mainly used either papyrus or - for temporary writing - a frame with wax in it that you could warm and smooth over to use again. I.e. the ancient romans had whiteboards! They also used wood when parchment wasn't easily available. This was quite common in roman Britain for example. One museum here has a letter from a roman woman in Britain on wood inviting her sister to a birthday party. In Egypt where the dry climate helps preserve even papyrus, there's a letter from a centurion saying that a soldier has been rejected because he failed the eye exam (not kidding). The Romans were really very modern in many ways and wrote a lot. Honestly, I don't think it is perishable materials so much as less writing that causes the difference. The romans were big on education, plays, were managing a continent-wide empire necessitating much correspondence. I just don't picture many written birthday invitations being sent out by 7th Century Anglo-Saxons.

But we've reached the limits of my knowledge here. Beyond this point for me lies only Wikipedia. I know that historians say there was a massive drop in writing from what came before, but I don't know all the details.

Hexyn wrote:So assumedly the Old Ones changed the eldar's biology so that they couldn't evolve and simplify?

Hexyn wrote:Then why haven't the eldar simplified, or become more complex (maybe they have-have they?)?

Because that is not how evolution works, at all. There was a really excellent and simple series of pictures that showed coloured circles "evolving" I saw once, but I wasn't able to find it. So here's something a bit more complicated. Basically, civilisation doesn't prevent evolution from happening, because mutations happen constantly. However, civilisation prevents natural selection (the process by which things get better at thriving in their current environment). All mutations, whether we consider them "good" or "bad" are passed on, because even debilitating ones end up being a non-factor when medicine is involved, especially given the technology level of the Eldar. They live, like we do, in an artificial environment. Although, being as advanced as they are, it is extremely possible that the Eldar genetically manipulate themselves constantly, which fixes the problem of genetic diseases and the like. Each time a notable genetic change happened to them (which would be a very rare occurrence if it happened at all), they would be able to fix it. Evolution isn't a progression towards "better". A notable pseudo-exception to this is humanity in 40k, as it is slowly progressing into a more psychic race. This is not evolution, however, as it is most likely artificial and caused by the Old Ones (and there is no evolutionary pressure for them to become more psychic).

EDIT: To clarify, I'll use the kroot as an example. An individual kroot may want to (artificially) become stronger, faster, smarter. To him, these are "good" qualities to add to his physiology. However, as far as evolution/natural selection is concerned, "good" means "breeds more". Although the kroot may have no interest in breeding and therefore this is "bad" to him, it is what natural selection will select for. To his brother, it is a "bad" thing when that individual becomes a mindless beast - but to nature, as long as it makes him breed more, it's a good thing. Kroot have that unique quality, though. For everyone else (except Tyranids), the genepool is a melting pot of pretty much every mutation, because practically everyone breeds, regardless of their mutations or differences to other members of their species.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Hexyn wrote:So assumedly the Old Ones changed the eldar's biology so that they couldn't evolve and simplify?

Hexyn wrote:Then why haven't the eldar simplified, or become more complex (maybe they have-have they?)?

Because that is not how evolution works, at all. There was a really excellent and simple series of pictures that showed coloured circles "evolving" I saw once, but I wasn't able to find it. So here's something a bit more complicated. Basically, civilisation doesn't prevent evolution from happening, because mutations happen constantly. However, civilisation prevents natural selection (the process by which things get better at thriving in their current environment). All mutations, whether we consider them "good" or "bad" are passed on, because even debilitating ones end up being a non-factor when medicine is involved, especially given the technology level of the Eldar. They live, like we do, in an artificial environment. Although, being as advanced as they are, it is extremely possible that the Eldar genetically manipulate themselves constantly, which fixes the problem of genetic diseases and the like. Each time a notable genetic change happened to them (which would be a very rare occurrence if it happened at all), they would be able to fix it. Evolution isn't a progression towards "better". A notable pseudo-exception to this is humanity in 40k, as it is slowly progressing into a more psychic race. This is not evolution, however, as it is most likely artificial and caused by the Old Ones (and there is no evolutionary pressure for them to become more psychic).

EDIT: To clarify, I'll use the kroot as an example. An individual kroot may want to (artificially) become stronger, faster, smarter. To him, these are "good" qualities to add to his physiology. However, as far as evolution/natural selection is concerned, "good" means "breeds more". Although the kroot may have no interest in breeding and therefore this is "bad" to him, it is what natural selection will select for. To his brother, it is a "bad" thing when that individual becomes a mindless beast - but to nature, as long as it makes him breed more, it's a good thing. Kroot have that unique quality, though. For everyone else (except Tyranids), the genepool is a melting pot of pretty much every mutation, because practically everyone breeds, regardless of their mutations or differences to other members of their species.

all assuming that Eldar are even capable of evolving or mutating. It is possible to think of a lifeform that is built on a non muteable code that is incapable of evolving. If you were to genetically engineer something, particularly if you were trying to create a weapon as the old ones were, you might want to engineer them so they are incapable of change.

In the current fluff, eldar cannot fall to chaos(they just give in to their nature of excess), they do not mutate like humans do. It's entirely possible that they are just not capable of evolution any more than necrons are.

The original fluff for Eldar explicitly mentions earlier points in their evolution.

Is it stated anywhere that the Eldar and Krork were actively allied together in offences against the C'tan and Necrontyr?

As a side, Dinosaurs ruled the Earth for 120 million years. That makes Mankind's time on Earth seem oh so very brief!

Codex: Necron.