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 anonymou5 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, been at work so I haven't had a chance to post what I wanted to when I read this thread this morning...

Anonymou5, I read through the list you were linking to for the GT and I have to say...just because a list as an element of assault in it, when it also has 5+ Wave Serpents it is NOT an assault army. It is a shooting army with one assault unit. The only list I saw on there that I would consider an assault list were the Flying Circus list and that is a fair point, but ONLY CD have access to flying MCs like that.

On that point, marine bike armies are not great at assault and their strength lies in the heavy weapons and speed they can bring to the table. They are one of the better counters to Tau at this point but really they aren't any good against a Tau player who knows what they are doing.

No. The Seer Council is an assault Army. It's not winning because it has 5 Serpents shooting, they are the support piece. It wins because it multi assaults entire Tau/Eldar armies on Turn 2 and kills them. It is absolutely an assault Army. You can argue it's not a fair barometer because it's nigh invincible (and that's a fair point), but don't say it doesn't count because it has shooting in it.

Now, looking at the top 8 lists (the top bracket), there are two Circuses (one Tzeentch in 1st, one Slaanesh in 7th). There are two Seer Councils. One has 5 Serpents (placed second) and one has 4 and a WK (placed 8th). Those are assault lists. Finally there is the Spawn Tide list (placed 5th). It has Abaddon, a Juggerlord, a Nurgle Bike Lord 15 Spawn, two Maulerfiends a Drake and some Havocs. That list has almost NO shooting. Again, that's 5/8 Assault lists.

Two lists have strong assault elements but are primarily shooting. The Ovesa Star (placed sixth) and Khan Bikers (placed 4th). The Ovesa Star, if you've ever seen it in action, actually assaults fairly often. Obviously it's primarily a shooting element, but it does use Assault. Khan Bikers, again are mostly shooting, but that Chapter Master isn't carrying his Powerfist because it looks cool. And Bikers are great at assaulting to hide from shooting, then hit and run out and do it again.

The remaining list of the top 8 is the Eldau list (3rd). It's Kurt Claus's list, and it's not entirely without assault. I played him at the ATC and he charged my Daemons list twice. Once with the Riptide/Buff Commander/Farseer into my Khorne Dogs, and again with a WK into my Dogs.

5/8 are assault focused, and three of those are almost entirely assault (Spawntide, two Flying Circuses). 2 are shooting focused but have very important assault elements. 1 is mostly shooting but maintains good counter assault.

I'm sorry but you are stretching this extremely far to define a list as assault based. 10 Warloks on bikes with spears does not an assault list make even if it is a scary assault unit. To deny that 5 and 4 WS, which are considered the one of the most if not the most powerful units in the game, set the stage for those wins you are just ignoring reality. What you are doing is defining any list that has a single assault unit in it as an assault based list...that is not right. The three Chaos list that you pointed out are the only ones I see that I would define as assault based. So at best I will grant you that 3 of the top 8 are assault list and that IS solid evidence, BUT Flying Circus is not a strong argument for assault so much as it is a strong argument for FMC. That list is defined by the FMC, not its assault capabilites. Those DP aren't assaulting their way to victory, they are abusing the fact that fliers, both vehicles and FMC, are poorly implimented and to compound that issue they are largely ignoring the one weakness FMC do have by taking Fateweaver. Finally, to add to my argument that a gun line is perfectly valid...look at the scoring units the daemons have. Two minimum squads of troops. They are not looking to take objectives with those list, they are looking to clear the opponents scoring units off the table and win with First Blood.

While those two ARE assault list yes, they are using a codex defining tactic, not something that any other codex has or will have in the future. FMC spam is not a great argument that assault is live and well in 6th edition. What I WILL grant you is the Spawntide list, that is incredible that he was able to do so well and I can absolutely see why that list would wreck the meta. Tons of spawn that can surge across the table to tie up shooting to be followed be the Maulerfiends? I am impressed by that list. It is a great counter meta list but against most other list? It wouldn't fair nearly as well.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 anonymou5 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, been at work so I haven't had a chance to post what I wanted to when I read this thread this morning...

Anonymou5, I read through the list you were linking to for the GT and I have to say...just because a list as an element of assault in it, when it also has 5+ Wave Serpents it is NOT an assault army. It is a shooting army with one assault unit. The only list I saw on there that I would consider an assault list were the Flying Circus list and that is a fair point, but ONLY CD have access to flying MCs like that.

On that point, marine bike armies are not great at assault and their strength lies in the heavy weapons and speed they can bring to the table. They are one of the better counters to Tau at this point but really they aren't any good against a Tau player who knows what they are doing.

No. The Seer Council is an assault Army. It's not winning because it has 5 Serpents shooting, they are the support piece. It wins because it multi assaults entire Tau/Eldar armies on Turn 2 and kills them. It is absolutely an assault Army. You can argue it's not a fair barometer because it's nigh invincible (and that's a fair point), but don't say it doesn't count because it has shooting in it.

Now, looking at the top 8 lists (the top bracket), there are two Circuses (one Tzeentch in 1st, one Slaanesh in 7th). There are two Seer Councils. One has 5 Serpents (placed second) and one has 4 and a WK (placed 8th). Those are assault lists. Finally there is the Spawn Tide list (placed 5th). It has Abaddon, a Juggerlord, a Nurgle Bike Lord 15 Spawn, two Maulerfiends a Drake and some Havocs. That list has almost NO shooting. Again, that's 5/8 Assault lists.

Two lists have strong assault elements but are primarily shooting. The Ovesa Star (placed sixth) and Khan Bikers (placed 4th). The Ovesa Star, if you've ever seen it in action, actually assaults fairly often. Obviously it's primarily a shooting element, but it does use Assault. Khan Bikers, again are mostly shooting, but that Chapter Master isn't carrying his Powerfist because it looks cool. And Bikers are great at assaulting to hide from shooting, then hit and run out and do it again.

The remaining list of the top 8 is the Eldau list (3rd). It's Kurt Claus's list, and it's not entirely without assault. I played him at the ATC and he charged my Daemons list twice. Once with the Riptide/Buff Commander/Farseer into my Khorne Dogs, and again with a WK into my Dogs.

5/8 are assault focused, and three of those are almost entirely assault (Spawntide, two Flying Circuses). 2 are shooting focused but have very important assault elements. 1 is mostly shooting but maintains good counter assault.

I'm sorry but you are stretching this extremely far to define a list as assault based. 10 Warloks on bikes with spears does not an assault list make even if it is a scary assault unit. To deny that 5 and 4 WS, which are considered the one of the most if not the most powerful units in the game, set the stage for those wins you are just ignoring reality. What you are doing is defining any list that has a single assault unit in it as an assault based list...that is not right. The three Chaos list that you pointed out are the only ones I see that I would define as assault based. So at best I will grant you that 3 of the top 8 are assault list and that IS solid evidence, BUT Flying Circus is not a strong argument for assault so much as it is a strong argument for FMC. That list is defined by the FMC, not its assault capabilites. Those DP aren't assaulting their way to victory, they are abusing the fact that fliers, both vehicles and FMC, are poorly implimented and to compound that issue they are largely ignoring the one weakness FMC do have by taking Fateweaver. Finally, to add to my argument that a gun line is perfectly valid...look at the scoring units the daemons have. Two minimum squads of troops. They are not looking to take objectives with those list, they are looking to clear the opponents scoring units off the table and win with First Blood.

While those two ARE assault list yes, they are using a codex defining tactic, not something that any other codex has or will have in the future. FMC spam is not a great argument that assault is live and well in 6th edition. What I WILL grant you is the Spawntide list, that is incredible that he was able to do so well and I can absolutely see why that list would wreck the meta. Tons of spawn that can surge across the table to tie up shooting to be followed be the Maulerfiends? I am impressed by that list. It is a great counter meta list but against most other list? It wouldn't fair nearly as well.

I am not attempting to stretch anything. So I apologize if it seems like I am. But man, I've played against Seer Councils plenty of times. 5 Serpents is good, no denying that. But those lists win games because of assault. 5 Serpents isn't winning a gun fight against 9 Serpents, a Riptide, and Broadsides (or whatever other Eldau shooty lists are out there). Seer Councils are dominating the Eldar vs Eldar meta right now because of how insanely powerful they are in assault. You're talking about a unit that can engage and kill entire Armies, simultaneously. It's not 10 Warlocks, 2 Farseers and the Baron. It's 10 dudes with rerollable 2 up armors, 2 up covers, at WS6-9, STR 6-9, etc. They're insane. IMO it's an assault list. A ridiculous, broken, assault list.

And yes, I am simultaneously making an argument for FMCs as well as assault. I don't need to be told how to play a Flying Circus, I play one at a very high level.

Assault is alive and well, it's just vastly different than it was in 5th. It's not Rhinos driving across the board and coughing up Marines. It's beasts, cavalry, bikes, and MCs with buffs stacked on them, crossing the board in one turn and wreacking havoc. You know what else is different than it was in 5th? Shooting. Do you know what 15 Long Fangs do in a tournament today? They all die in 1-2 turns.

The argument isn't "assault is dead" The argument is "the 3 6ed power books have cranked the game up to 11. Their assault and shooting units are vastly more powerful than anything that existed before." I agree with that entirely. It's a different and silly game now.

Also, that player with the Spawntide list took it to BfS and Nova as well, and did well at both events (actually beat the Ovesa Star with it at BFS)

I'd much rather face venoms and Wraithknights. Anti-AV 14 is not so important as bringing LRs is its own penalty.

Your perspective is skewed because you were playing demons. A shooting army could shoot down whatever didn't get invis. The fact that you were able to kite it shows its inferiority to Serpents. You literally can't keep away from them.

 anonymou5 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 anonymou5 wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, been at work so I haven't had a chance to post what I wanted to when I read this thread this morning...

Anonymou5, I read through the list you were linking to for the GT and I have to say...just because a list as an element of assault in it, when it also has 5+ Wave Serpents it is NOT an assault army. It is a shooting army with one assault unit. The only list I saw on there that I would consider an assault list were the Flying Circus list and that is a fair point, but ONLY CD have access to flying MCs like that.

On that point, marine bike armies are not great at assault and their strength lies in the heavy weapons and speed they can bring to the table. They are one of the better counters to Tau at this point but really they aren't any good against a Tau player who knows what they are doing.

No. The Seer Council is an assault Army. It's not winning because it has 5 Serpents shooting, they are the support piece. It wins because it multi assaults entire Tau/Eldar armies on Turn 2 and kills them. It is absolutely an assault Army. You can argue it's not a fair barometer because it's nigh invincible (and that's a fair point), but don't say it doesn't count because it has shooting in it.

Now, looking at the top 8 lists (the top bracket), there are two Circuses (one Tzeentch in 1st, one Slaanesh in 7th). There are two Seer Councils. One has 5 Serpents (placed second) and one has 4 and a WK (placed 8th). Those are assault lists. Finally there is the Spawn Tide list (placed 5th). It has Abaddon, a Juggerlord, a Nurgle Bike Lord 15 Spawn, two Maulerfiends a Drake and some Havocs. That list has almost NO shooting. Again, that's 5/8 Assault lists.

Two lists have strong assault elements but are primarily shooting. The Ovesa Star (placed sixth) and Khan Bikers (placed 4th). The Ovesa Star, if you've ever seen it in action, actually assaults fairly often. Obviously it's primarily a shooting element, but it does use Assault. Khan Bikers, again are mostly shooting, but that Chapter Master isn't carrying his Powerfist because it looks cool. And Bikers are great at assaulting to hide from shooting, then hit and run out and do it again.

The remaining list of the top 8 is the Eldau list (3rd). It's Kurt Claus's list, and it's not entirely without assault. I played him at the ATC and he charged my Daemons list twice. Once with the Riptide/Buff Commander/Farseer into my Khorne Dogs, and again with a WK into my Dogs.

5/8 are assault focused, and three of those are almost entirely assault (Spawntide, two Flying Circuses). 2 are shooting focused but have very important assault elements. 1 is mostly shooting but maintains good counter assault.

I'm sorry but you are stretching this extremely far to define a list as assault based. 10 Warloks on bikes with spears does not an assault list make even if it is a scary assault unit. To deny that 5 and 4 WS, which are considered the one of the most if not the most powerful units in the game, set the stage for those wins you are just ignoring reality. What you are doing is defining any list that has a single assault unit in it as an assault based list...that is not right. The three Chaos list that you pointed out are the only ones I see that I would define as assault based. So at best I will grant you that 3 of the top 8 are assault list and that IS solid evidence, BUT Flying Circus is not a strong argument for assault so much as it is a strong argument for FMC. That list is defined by the FMC, not its assault capabilites. Those DP aren't assaulting their way to victory, they are abusing the fact that fliers, both vehicles and FMC, are poorly implimented and to compound that issue they are largely ignoring the one weakness FMC do have by taking Fateweaver. Finally, to add to my argument that a gun line is perfectly valid...look at the scoring units the daemons have. Two minimum squads of troops. They are not looking to take objectives with those list, they are looking to clear the opponents scoring units off the table and win with First Blood.

While those two ARE assault list yes, they are using a codex defining tactic, not something that any other codex has or will have in the future. FMC spam is not a great argument that assault is live and well in 6th edition. What I WILL grant you is the Spawntide list, that is incredible that he was able to do so well and I can absolutely see why that list would wreck the meta. Tons of spawn that can surge across the table to tie up shooting to be followed be the Maulerfiends? I am impressed by that list. It is a great counter meta list but against most other list? It wouldn't fair nearly as well.

I am not attempting to stretch anything. So I apologize if it seems like I am. But man, I've played against Seer Councils plenty of times. 5 Serpents is good, no denying that. But those lists win games because of assault. 5 Serpents isn't winning a gun fight against 9 Serpents, a Riptide, and Broadsides (or whatever other Eldau shooty lists are out there). Seer Councils are dominating the Eldar vs Eldar meta right now because of how insanely powerful they are in assault. You're talking about a unit that can engage and kill entire Armies, simultaneously. It's not 10 Warlocks, 2 Farseers and the Baron. It's 10 dudes with rerollable 2 up armors, 2 up covers, at WS6-9, STR 6-9, etc. They're insane. IMO it's an assault list. A ridiculous, broken, assault list.

And yes, I am simultaneously making an argument for FMCs as well as assault. I don't need to be told how to play a Flying Circus, I play one at a very high level.

Assault is alive and well, it's just vastly different than it was in 5th. It's not Rhinos driving across the board and coughing up Marines. It's beasts, cavalry, bikes, and MCs with buffs stacked on them, crossing the board in one turn and wreacking havoc. You know what else is different than it was in 5th? Shooting. Do you know what 15 Long Fangs do in a tournament today? They all die in 1-2 turns.

The argument isn't "assault is dead" The argument is "the 3 6ed power books have cranked the game up to 11. Their assault and shooting units are vastly more powerful than anything that existed before." I agree with that entirely. It's a different and silly game now.

Also, that player with the Spawntide list took it to BfS and Nova as well, and did well at both events (actually beat the Ovesa Star with it at BFS)

The three power books have made assault dead for everyone else. That makes assault dead in the meta unless you are a special exception. Hence, the phrase "Assault is dead".

Martel732 wrote:


The three power books have made assault dead for everyone else. That makes assault dead in the meta unless you are a special exception. Hence, the phrase "Assault is dead".

They've also made shooting dead for everyone else. What's the last tournament IG won? Our shooty Wolves? Or Grey Knights?

Those were the 5ed Shooting Armies.

With the exception of specific niche builds (Spawntide, MSU Raven, maybe Khan Bikers), there are effectively only three books. One is shooty (Tau), one is assaulty (Daemons), one is both (Eldar).

Although really you could make an argument that there's only one book. Eldar are better than Tau and Daemons (who are roughly equal IMO)


Also. Daemons can kite Serpents. You can stay out of range of the Scatter Laser, the Serpent Shield doesn't matter if it's not twin linked (for FMCs). And if he does shoot it away I'm going to lash him to death.

36" radius of effect is huge. At the very least the will wound spam all your scoring troops to death. Unless Daemons can make FMC scoring somehow.

It's also hard to believe that IG can't still do better than meqs in 6th edition. Especially against Tau.

I propose an experiment at this point, since we appear to be talking in circles. Each of us record our win loss record against good opponents of a particular style of play, whether assault or shooting.
Let's define our terms as to what constitutes either type of army, ie., percentage of units needed to constitute an assault or shooty army.
No fair playing lil' Timmy or other inexperienced or lower tier than you are player types and counting that as an honest victory. The skill levels between both opponents should be as close to equal as can be created.
Everybody plays 5 games and reports results back here and we see what the results are.
It's a very loose and nebulous idea, so if you're interested, feel free to throw in any ideas or suggestions.

It would also be interesting to note how easy the victory was.
I'll say at this point that my belief is that from what I've seen here localy, assault is not as dead as it's made out to be.

It's gonna be hard for me to find an assault army to play. Everyone in my area has kinda given up on it.

I guess I can play daemons five times. Yuck. Haven't beaten them yet this edition; been tabled against them three times now.

Martel732 wrote:
36" radius of effect is huge. At the very least the will wound spam all your scoring troops to death. Unless Daemons can make FMC scoring somehow.

It's also hard to believe that IG can't still do better than meqs in 6th edition. Especially against Tau.

It's actually 48, due to the 12 inch move. Still doable once you push them to a board edge with Fateweaver.

Against Eldar with Daemons I am 3-0 at GTs (including a win over the number 1 ranked player on TOF). I'm actually working on an article for FLG about it, but in short I basically play straight asymmetrical.

DPs kite Wave Serpents. Fateweaver engages and kills any soft targets, and forces Wave Serpents to stay on the board edge (if they expose rear armor he will kill them). Portaglyph goes behind my bastion. Flesh Hounds posture midfield early game to push Serpents to a side. After that Hounds suicide themselves into a WK. Daemonnettes find places to hide to threaten WK movement, as they will kill a WK if they catch him. Horrors spend most of the game going to ground, or sitting in/behind my Bastion.

End game Daemon Princes fly onto objectives (to contest or draw fire), Fateweaver takes awy an objective. Troops run onto objectives.

If you follow the link in my sig I have batrep I have a win against a decent Eldar list against a good general (many RTT wins, although mostly with Crons), where I basically do what I just described (although he had two Serpents so I was a little more aggressive)

Martel732 wrote:
It's gonna be hard for me to find an assault army to play. Everyone in my area has kinda given up on it.

I guess I can play daemons five times. Yuck. Haven't beaten them yet this edition; been tabled against them three times now.

Even if you can't get that kind of a game, do you have any controls, such as amount of terrain or other thing you'd like to suggest ?

My local stores have precious little LOS blocking terrain. So go for tables that look like parking lots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
36" radius of effect is huge. At the very least the will wound spam all your scoring troops to death. Unless Daemons can make FMC scoring somehow.

It's also hard to believe that IG can't still do better than meqs in 6th edition. Especially against Tau.

It's actually 48, due to the 12 inch move. Still doable once you push them to a board edge with Fateweaver.

Against Eldar with Daemons I am 3-0 at GTs (including a win over the number 1 ranked player on TOF). I'm actually working on an article for FLG about it, but in short I basically play straight asymmetrical.

DPs kite Wave Serpents. Fateweaver engages and kills any soft targets, and forces Wave Serpents to stay on the board edge (if they expose rear armor he will kill them). Portaglyph goes behind my bastion. Flesh Hounds posture midfield early game to push Serpents to a side. After that Hounds suicide themselves into a WK. Daemonnettes find places to hide to threaten WK movement, as they will kill a WK if they catch him. Horrors spend most of the game going to ground, or sitting in/behind my Bastion.

End game Daemon Princes fly onto objectives (to contest or draw fire), Fateweaver takes awy an objective. Troops run onto objectives.

If you follow the link in my sig I have batrep I have a win against a decent Eldar list against a good general (many RTT wins, although mostly with Crons), where I basically do what I just described (although he had two Serpents so I was a little more aggressive)

Just curious, can you counter them without Fateweaver? Because meqs lists have nothing like that.

Maybe we could split the games with terrain and without.

Maybe. But I've got a BA army and only have a few bikers. I've got none of the space marines best tech anyway. I'm not sure how helpful my data points would be. I have decided against getting all the space marine goodies to make my list a "counts as" list. So I guess for now, I'm sort of out of the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. But I've got a BA army and only have a few bikers. I've got none of the space marines best tech anyway. I'm not sure how helpful my data points would be.

Just note the terrain on the table and what the lists were. I think if the lot of us put our heads together we can hammer out some good controls.
If we know people that play assault or shooty, we can enter their data if they want to participate as long as they abide by the controls we are setting. I think this could be pretty fun.

Martel732 wrote:
My local stores have precious little LOS blocking terrain. So go for tables that look like parking lots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anonymou5 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
36" radius of effect is huge. At the very least the will wound spam all your scoring troops to death. Unless Daemons can make FMC scoring somehow.

It's also hard to believe that IG can't still do better than meqs in 6th edition. Especially against Tau.

It's actually 48, due to the 12 inch move. Still doable once you push them to a board edge with Fateweaver.

Against Eldar with Daemons I am 3-0 at GTs (including a win over the number 1 ranked player on TOF). I'm actually working on an article for FLG about it, but in short I basically play straight asymmetrical.

DPs kite Wave Serpents. Fateweaver engages and kills any soft targets, and forces Wave Serpents to stay on the board edge (if they expose rear armor he will kill them). Portaglyph goes behind my bastion. Flesh Hounds posture midfield early game to push Serpents to a side. After that Hounds suicide themselves into a WK. Daemonnettes find places to hide to threaten WK movement, as they will kill a WK if they catch him. Horrors spend most of the game going to ground, or sitting in/behind my Bastion.

End game Daemon Princes fly onto objectives (to contest or draw fire), Fateweaver takes awy an objective. Troops run onto objectives.

If you follow the link in my sig I have batrep I have a win against a decent Eldar list against a good general (many RTT wins, although mostly with Crons), where I basically do what I just described (although he had two Serpents so I was a little more aggressive)

Just curious, can you counter them without Fateweaver? Because meqs lists have nothing like that.

Well with my Circus list my Hounds obviously are good at killing Serpents, depending on how much fire they take turn 1 and whether or not there is a WK to tarpit. I also sometimes deep strike Horrors behind them and go full dakka into rear armor. I had a game where I did that, did two glances, got Warp Surge (+1 invuln), had FIVE Serpents shoot into my Horrors (with one left alive due to 4++ rerolling 1s) and that single horror did another glance to a different Serpent. Pretty funny (and lucky for sure).

MEQ options. Well, Storm Ravens are excellent Serpent killers. Storm Talons are also good at killing Serpents, however, Serpents will kill them extremely quickly in return. The Tiggy plus Tau Commander plus Centurion Unit is good at doing it, and good at tanking fire (just Gate of Infinity to where you need to be, Tau Commander tanks and grants ignores cover). I also really like the IronTau death star (more than the Centurion unit actually):
http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/10/22/irontau-fun-with-battle-brothers-by-anonymou5/
Just give the Riptide a Bust Cannon

Khan Bikers are good at killing Serpents, because they can get close enough to krak grenade them to death. Unfortunately Khan Bikers are about to be useless, since there will be Servo Skulls everywhere. Reece's Raven Guard Rhino Rush also can do it, but is also about to go away because of Servo Skulls as well.
Link anyway http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Tchlf7lXU

Imperial Fists Devastators with Tigerius (perfect timing) should kill a Serpent a turn. Just tank with the Chapter Master you're going to take because why would you not always take him?

Really in general, anything you can take that can either move fast or shoot far, coupled with either Tiggy or a Tau Commander.

Storm Talons are the best TAC bet I think. Basically until the Talons are dead, he has to keep his Serpents on the rear board edge, because otherwise the Talon is shooting him in the ass. If he's on the board edge, his firepower is severely reduced and you can advance to where you need to be. Think of it this way, T1-2 he's on the board edge. T2 your Talon comes on, fly him on at an oblique angle so that he can only engage with the Shield. (kiting the Scatter Laser). Good odds you keep your Talon and yet another turn of the Serpent on the back edge. Then fly your Talon off and repeat. KEep him pinned, once he really joins the fight you can be where you need to be (midfield, on objectives, and with krak grenades in hand)

Not sure if I'd let a couple storm talons dictate where I moved wave serpents. The assault cannon is not that amazing of a weapon.

But it doesn't matter as I currently own zero stormtalons.

On a side note do you think that hounds will dissapear due to the servo skulls as well?

Okay I was cheap and didn't get the new thingie. What exactly do servo skulls do?

 StarTrotter wrote:
On a side note do you think that hounds will dissapear due to the servo skulls as well?

Dogpile lists? Probably. As part of Herald Hammer or Flying Circus lists? Probably not. In those style lists they are just as useful as disruption units coming off the board edge (they can outflank too), bubble wrap for drop pods, a durable block if you null deploy your FMCs, fast scoring in the Scouring, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Not sure if I'd let a couple storm talons dictate where I moved wave serpents. The assault cannon is not that amazing of a weapon.

But it doesn't matter as I currently own zero stormtalons.

Haha. Well if they don't stay on the back board edge, you double up and kill one Serpent the turn you come on (as you're always going to run two Talons), which reduces his firepower. Then he has to turn around to engage your Talons, which exposes his rear to your more traditional shooting.

IDK, just spit balling ideas. Only Marine list I've been running lately has been my super friends list, and it handles Serpents by charging straight forward, lol.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay I was cheap and didn't get the new thingie. What exactly do servo skulls do?

Servo skulls are a counter placed before deployment, anywhrere on the table that creates a 12" zone where you cannot infiltrate or scout into. They also reduce blast scattering and deepstriking range by allowing them to roll 1 less D6 than normal.They are destroyed if an enemy moves within 6" of them.

64 points gets you a level 1 divination caddy with 3 of these servo skulls. Only 34 points if you are willing to drop your psychic abilities. He also doesn't cost a FoC slot.

Drop them 6.1" outside of the enemies deployment zone and you should be able to create a buffer of ~72" wide where they cannot scout toward, Severely limiting their deployment options....for 34 points.

And GW thought this was a good idea... why?

Martel732 wrote:
And GW thought this was a good idea... why?

Oh it's worse than that. That same Inquisitor can take all the GK Grenades. Meaning you could run a power blob WITH GK Grenades, and say Tiggy (for GOI). Deep strike forward turn 1, using the Servo Skull to prevent scatter. That's 50 bodies with a 4++ (between Tiggy and the Inquisitor you should get forewarning), that can beat anything in the game in assault, and can also put out 100 twinlinked (or 150 if you have a PCS somewhere), flash gun shots (which are a lot more lethal once you use a rad grenade).

Power blobs suffer right now because they can't take three turns of shooting. They can absolutely take one turn of shooting.

And that's just one example of how silly this codex is going to be.

Is GW purposly trying to destroy any enjoyment of 40K?

Relapse wrote:
Is GW purposly trying to destroy any enjoyment of 40K?

Kinda feels that way doesn't it? I really have to question the competency of both their business and their game development side.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Is GW purposly trying to destroy any enjoyment of 40K?

Kinda feels that way doesn't it? I really have to question the competency of both their business and their game development side.

If it comes down to it, my group has substantial quantities of material for and plays Epic Armageddon, Warmaster, BFG, and Blood Bowl. Games, which are thankfully out of print and beyond the reach of GW to ruin.

I think giving Imperial armies a buff is much-needed at this point.

 anonymou5 wrote:
With the exception of specific niche builds (Spawntide, MSU Raven, maybe Khan Bikers), there are effectively only three books. One is shooty (Tau), one is assaulty (Daemons), one is both (Eldar).

Those three books only have specific niche builds in them that work. Its not like you can just open up the Eldar book and pick units and random and call "WIN". Vyper Jetbikes, Nightspinners, Falcons, Shining Spears, etc. There are tons of units that are not in the 'winning armies'.

Likewise we can do the same with Tau or Daemons. Pure Tau without abusing a buffmander is actually not that awesome of an army. Even with markerlight support I've been able to overrun them with bikes on a regular basis. Its when you start allying in with Eldar or buffmanders that things get silly. Daemons only have a few specific builds. We don't see troop spam with 100+ troops for a reason.

As such, saying that niche builds exist out of the other books is an obvious statement. We might just say 'builds' exist out of the other books. Are the builds as strong as the top 3? Well, that's to be decided. As of last month, the answer was pretty simple. Starting next month things might change. C:I may have some impacts on the meta as a whole by improving imperial armies.

And of course, things are even more complicated with allies.

I can say that I've had very good luck with a marine army thus far. I actually don't think bikes are the strongest build from the book.


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 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I think giving Imperial armies a buff is much-needed at this point.

Codex:Inquisiton. There are some great tools in there.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 anonymou5 wrote:
With the exception of specific niche builds (Spawntide, MSU Raven, maybe Khan Bikers), there are effectively only three books. One is shooty (Tau), one is assaulty (Daemons), one is both (Eldar).

Those three books only have specific niche builds in them that work. Its not like you can just open up the Eldar book and pick units and random and call "WIN". Vyper Jetbikes, Nightspinners, Falcons, Shining Spears, etc. There are tons of units that are not in the 'winning armies'.

Likewise we can do the same with Tau or Daemons. Pure Tau without abusing a buffmander is actually not that awesome of an army. Even with markerlight support I've been able to overrun them with bikes on a regular basis. Its when you start allying in with Eldar or buffmanders that things get silly. Daemons only have a few specific builds. We don't see troop spam with 100+ troops for a reason.

As such, saying that niche builds exist out of the other books is an obvious statement. We might just say 'builds' exist out of the other books. Are the builds as strong as the top 3? Well, that's to be decided. As of last month, the answer was pretty simple. Starting next month things might change. C:I may have some impacts on the meta as a whole by improving imperial armies.

And of course, things are even more complicated with allies.

I can say that I've had very good luck with a marine army thus far. I actually don't think bikes are the strongest build from the book.

.

I will say that I still have hope for the Marines book, and have not dismissed it yet. I thought the Scouting Rhinos list was going to be a winner, btu that just got servo skulled, lol. Marines with a Buff Commander are super strong, as well.

Okay, niche builds was obviously poor choice of wording. Older codexes can put out some really awesome anti meta builds (MSU Storm Raven, 4 Rune Priests in 3 Land Raiders, etc) that definitely can catch people by surprise, and even match up really well vs one of the three. But in general, they have trouble competing. Yes, the new books don't have infinite builds either, but they do have crazy ass combos that reach levels of power that exceed almost everything a 5ed book can do.

As to Daemon Troop spam: I stll think an Army built around 120 Daemonettes would work, that's only 1080 points…more than enough room for a ton of support. And while massed Horrors/Heralds isn't TAC, it's arguably a lot more powerful than anything Orks can put on the table. Just goofing off with a Horrors build I once shot a pretty good Tau list off the table (super anecdotal, I know)

My point still stands though. Assault isn't dead, "old builds" are dead. Old books can't outshoot Tau, they can't out assault Daemons, and they can't out anything Eldar. The synergies of those three books (along with CSM and DE, tagging along) get ridiculous. Codex: Prescience may shake it up though. Now crazy combos are available for everyone!

 anonymou5 wrote:
My point still stands though. Assault isn't dead, "old builds" are dead. Old books can't outshoot Tau, they can't out assault Daemons, and they can't out anything Eldar. The synergies of those three books (along with CSM and DE, tagging along) get ridiculous. Codex: Prescience may shake it up though. Now crazy combos are available for everyone!

Agreed

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
I think giving Imperial armies a buff is much-needed at this point.

I wouldn't have done it this way.