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When you talk about Tech Tree's with things like Chaos, you can't really default to what the minion is wielding as Tech, but more as the minion being tech itself, in relation to the Chaos God that wields it as a weapon, at that point.

Does that make sense?

That's how you discuss the God races in context with Technology.

Also, take note, that the boundary between Godhood and Technology can be razor thin at times, and can come down to simply ones knowledge and capacity for understanding of a thing. So, in the case of the Necrons, they're tech looks godly, but it's actually just super advanced tech. Perhaps so advanced it's merged with the physical/spiritual aspects of that race. And that's essentially the apex of technology. When machine and biology function seemlessly as one.

I don't see the issue, the imperials clearly have higher tech than the tau, over all the tau has more advanced tech across the board but the imperium is more technologically advanced overall, warp tech, Gene tech, medical tech (assumption) the only areas that tau seem to be more advanced is stable plasma,ion tech, drone tech (not a.i, have/had better), even the dreadnought is more advanced than the riptide (although not represented on tt), imperials also have better starships, miu, super weapons, psy tech.

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
When you talk about Tech Tree's with things like Chaos, you can't really default to what the minion is wielding as Tech, but more as the minion being tech itself, in relation to the Chaos God that wields it as a weapon, at that point.

Does that make sense?

That's how you discuss the God races in context with Technology.

Also, take note, that the boundary between Godhood and Technology can be razor thin at times, and can come down to simply ones knowledge and capacity for understanding of a thing. So, in the case of the Necrons, they're tech looks godly, but it's actually just super advanced tech. Perhaps so advanced it's merged with the physical/spiritual aspects of that race. And that's essentially the apex of technology. When machine and biology function seemlessly as one.

Ok I see where you are coming from. The minion is the tech makes sense.

 Formosa wrote:
I don't see the issue, the imperials clearly have higher tech than the tau, over all the tau has more advanced tech across the board but the imperium is more technologically advanced overall, warp tech, Gene tech, medical tech (assumption) the only areas that tau seem to be more advanced is stable plasma,ion tech, drone tech (not a.i, have/had better), even the dreadnought is more advanced than the riptide (although not represented on tt), imperials also have better starships, miu, super weapons, psy tech.

This is a tough call really, because a lot of what the Imperium use is far beyond obsolete by standard means. Starting first and foremost with the fact that the Imperium uses solid munitions for their Space Marines, while the Tau are utilizing Plasma and Ion technologies. So space travel suffers for the Tau in terms of speed and such, but their travel is safer. They are also younger and have achieved this level of tech for their army. Also consider where the Imperium gets a lot of their tech. It's stolen! From themselves, as ridiculous as that sounds. That's why they can't work the crap. They killed everyone that knew how to use the machines when they took them. See: The Auretian Technocracy and the Interex as an example of how the Imperium appropriates a lot of its tech.

Here is something else to look at: The usage of Power Armor. In all reality, the Tau have this technology better suited than anything the Imperium have, including the Astartes Mark V Ceramite Plates. Sure the power armor of the Imperium is stout to say the least, but is it efficient? Not when you consider the mobility the Tau pack into their suits. And then how easily distribute-able their armor is. You don't see any IG equivalents in the Tau army, unless you try to justify the Kroot and they are physiologically superior to human biology.

So is the Imperium really more advanced than the Tau? Not really. It's more like a difference of scale at times in their empire. The Tau are young and already have incredible Tech they will only perfect. The Imperium has staggering tech that it can't properly utilize to it's fullest extent AND they're on the decline.

I agree with da001's scale earlier: Pre-Horus Heresy Imperium may have been over the Tau, but 40k Religious Zealotry Imperium definitely is not. However, I will put this on 40k Imperium as a testament to their technology. I said earlier that fusion of biological and mechanical components can be a mark of an advanced race? So advanced are the Old Ones, C'Tan, Necrons, Chaos, Etc. that they do this very thing? The Imperium does this two with there creation of Cherubs, the Servitors, Gene-Seed programs, etc. etc. etc. The Tau have not really worked this out yet. They are still in the phase of Biological and Mechanical Interface. Not so much fusion.

I think this was described in Tau Rail Cannons generating enough feedback to kill their gunners if they weren't careful. Super-advanced tech with stopping power; just not quiet perfected yet.

And as a Table Top example of how the Tau or more advanced than the Imperium? Simply put, they don't have plasma that explodes. lol I'd say that's a pretty important benchmark, even if flamers and melta's aren't as high a priority just yet.

If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

The Dark Eldar should really be above the Craftworld Eldar.
Their weaponry is more advanced, they live in the Webway and they can extinguish suns, create black holes and all that kind of stuff. They even managed to 'steal' a sun. Come on, even the Necrons can't do that!
The Dark Eldar have retained much more of the Eldar technology from before the Fall and therefore they should be tier 1 IMO.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Dark Eldar should really be above the Craftworld Eldar.
Their weaponry is more advanced, they live in the Webway and they can extinguish suns, create black holes and all that kind of stuff. They even managed to 'steal' a sun. Come on, even the Necrons can't do that!
The Dark Eldar have retained much more of the Eldar technology from before the Fall and therefore they should be tier 1 IMO.

The Necrons pluck the heart of dying stars to power Tesseract Arks, so they can most certainly steal a star.

To Iron Captain

The necrons turn off suns, though your right about the Dark Eldar I forget about a lot of they could do.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

I think the main reason none of them are heavy is because they are all mounted only on battlesuits and vehicles. The burst cannon (fluff wise) can be weilded by a normal person because they are light for their size, and have almost no kick, but you have to think about ammunition and power supplies. They would have to have huge power packs on their backs, something which slows down the person holding it, and doesn't fit with taus doctrine of fast moving, and repositioning. Also a part of the reason for no integrated heavy weapons is the maxim atg the bottom of the page on pg 23 in the tau codex, "Our technology advances with the years; our tactics do not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

No offence meant but their is no real size difference for Iridium armor, it is just an extra layer of plating. You may be thinking of the commander suit, which is the XV8-05 Crisis 'Enforcer' Battlesuit, an entirely different mark of suit.
I do agree that the imperium does have some better tech, like warp drive and titans, but they do not understand how warp drives work (they just follow certain rituals, like pushing the large red button wit the mystic word "ON", after sacrificing a goat in front of it), and titans are REALLY expensive. Tau's answer to titans was to take existing flyers (Tiger sharks), and retrofit them with existing guns (heavy rail guns), making a multi-purpose titan-killer for the fraction of the cost of a titan (also, being flyers they are hard to hit).
The impurium generally has very strong tech, but it is crude. Tau tech is sometimes weaker, but it is generally easily producible, safer, more refined, and often stronger than the imperium's tech.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Also if the tau could put plasma rifles and fusion blasters in the hands of firewarriors then they would already have done so.

Why? This is like saying that if real-world armies could put anti-tank missiles in the hands of every soldier they would already have done so. You're ignoring the strategic reasons for that decision and assuming it's all a matter of availability instead.

Yeah, the tau don't use integrated heavy weapons in their Fire Warrior teams, because of their combat doctrine.

Doesn't mean that with new weapons systems that combat doctrine doesn't change look at pathfinder squads. Now it could all be combat doctrine and that is why they have not reduced them in size or they just can't do it or the last reason could be is that GW wanted to do something different and not copy other armies that have those weapons in their infantry squads.

P.S. there not really heavy weapons I mean plasma is a gun and in game is rapid fire not heavy. Meltas are assault weapons not heavy. Missile launchers are heavy, lascannons are heavy, and other weapons of the like.

I think the main reason none of them are heavy is because they are all mounted only on battlesuits and vehicles. The burst cannon (fluff wise) can be weilded by a normal person because they are light for their size, and have almost no kick, but you have to think about ammunition and power supplies. They would have to have huge power packs on their backs, something which slows down the person holding it, and doesn't fit with taus doctrine of fast moving, and repositioning. Also a part of the reason for no integrated heavy weapons is the maxim atg the bottom of the page on pg 23 in the tau codex, "Our technology advances with the years; our tactics do not."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

No offence meant but their is no real size difference for Iridium armor, it is just an extra layer of plating. You may be thinking of the commander suit, which is the XV8-05 Crisis 'Enforcer' Battlesuit, an entirely different mark of suit.
I do agree that the imperium does have some better tech, like warp drive and titans, but they do not understand how warp drives work (they just follow certain rituals, like pushing the large red button wit the mystic word "ON", after sacrificing a goat in front of it), and titans are REALLY expensive. Tau's answer to titans was to take existing flyers (Tiger sharks), and retrofit them with existing guns (heavy rail guns), making a multi-purpose titan-killer for the fraction of the cost of a titan (also, being flyers they are hard to hit).
The impurium generally has very strong tech, but it is crude. Tau tech is sometimes weaker, but it is generally easily producible, safer, more refined, and often stronger than the imperium's tech.

Fair points on tau weapons and tactics though you think that some tactics would have to change to meet different foes, but why fix what's not broken.

Also the riptide is also an answer to titans if i remember correctly don't have the codex with me and the riptides were something that almost didn't happen due to cost and is hard to make. The IOM makes new space ships time depends on the fluff, but they have to understand how to make wrap engines otherwise they couldn't make more ships. The crew taking care of the engines don't really need to know how it works just how to maintain it.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

The IOM makes new space ships time depends on the fluff, but they have to understand how to make wrap engines otherwise they couldn't make more ships.

Not really, that's what they have STCs for.

By new I mean the same thing just replacing and adding to the fleet. I don't believe STCs to be the answer because wrap engines have been around a long time as far as i know even during the time of the age of strife. I believe they know how to make them.

In regards to why Tau Tactics have advanced slower than their technology is because they are only just now being threatened by races that challenge their tactics and technology. None worse than the Daemons they can't perceive or understand.

Imagine how frightening that is for a young race like the Tau? It's like the early sailors hitting the ocean at the risk of sea monsters eating your boat or falling out off the edge of the universe.

Still though, we're talking about level of technology, and the most important thing to be cited is that Tau Tech is improving. The Imperium is not. It's stuck in scavenger mode because crap like their weapons testing planet getting attacked by Khorne because the guns sounded nice.

Regarding the Adeptus Mechanicus, there is a guy on 1d4Chan who wrote what is, I think, the best description of what their status is and why things are the way they are in the Imperium.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part that begins "Why Everything Is So Grimdark?"

In short? While the AdMech might be hording technology, they aren't hording some golden paradise for humanity. Things in the Imperium are the way that they are and it is the absolute best option of all the sh*tty options available.

It's a fallacy that imperial tech does not develop, it does and there are countless sources that show this, however the problem is with who develops it not that it happens at all, the ad mech are very much like fantasy dwarfs, they will use tried and tested equipment to the detriment of newer tech and only grudgingly accept it after centuries.

Case in point
Storm shields
land speeder typhoons
annihilator predators
Land raider redeemer/crusader
terminator armour (that's right over the last 10k years there have been several distinct types, similar to the battlesuits tau use)
Power armour
Lasguns
Bolters
thunderfire cannons

Only a few of these existed during the great crusade, so that it development in the last 10k years, there are more of course.

 Formosa wrote:
It's a fallacy that imperial tech does not develop, it does and there are countless sources that show this, however the problem is with who develops it not that it happens at all, the ad mech are very much like fantasy dwarfs, they will use tried and tested equipment to the detriment of newer tech and only grudgingly accept it after centuries.

Case in point
Storm shields
land speeder typhoons
annihilator predators
Land raider redeemer/crusader
terminator armour (that's right over the last 10k years there have been several distinct types, similar to the battlesuits tau use)
Power armour
Lasguns
Bolters
thunderfire cannons

Only a few of these existed during the great crusade, so that it development in the last 10k years, there are more of course.

What?! Most of that exists (per Forgeworld anyways) during the Heresy and comes from the Dark Age of Technology!

Bolters have always been the standard gun of the Space Marine. Same with Power Armor (Mark I through V). Terminator Armor is also described as being relics that most cannot even fully operate, let alone understand. Storm Shields? Breaching Shields.

This all sounds like scavenging. Not really innovation, though like I said before, I know they do develope weapons and such because Chaos has attacked those planets before. lol

Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

 TheRedWingArmada wrote:
In regards to why Tau Tactics have advanced slower than their technology is because they are only just now being threatened by races that challenge their tactics and technology. None worse than the Daemons they can't perceive or understand.

Imagine how frightening that is for a young race like the Tau? It's like the early sailors hitting the ocean at the risk of sea monsters eating your boat or falling out off the edge of the universe.

Still though, we're talking about level of technology, and the most important thing to be cited is that Tau Tech is improving. The Imperium is not. It's stuck in scavenger mode because crap like their weapons testing planet getting attacked by Khorne because the guns sounded nice.

Makes sense. Tau tech is really the only tech that is advancing much at all.

Also forgot that bolters were invented to replace volkite tech, we
Have several types of bolters with differing firing rates, calibers, range, penetration power, but that's not innovation, thats scavenging :/

Best Tech
Necron
Eldar

Second best tech
Tau

3 best tech
IOM

4th best tech
orks

5th best tech
Tyranid (whats tech?)

 Gunhead1 wrote:
By new I mean the same thing just replacing and adding to the fleet. I don't believe STCs to be the answer because wrap engines have been around a long time as far as i know even during the time of the age of strife. I believe they know how to make them.

The AdMech understand that, to make a Warp Engine, you insert this Tab A into that Slot B and you will probably end up with a Warp Engine. They don't understand the underlying principles of Warp Engine design or construction. What they do know is rote memorization of tasks. "Press this button, pull that lever, chant this prayer, strike that activation rune, and the Machine will serve you" sort of stuff. The AdMech, by and large, does not *understand* the technology they possess, they can simply replicate it because they have figured out how to build the component parts and assemble them like a jigsaw puzzle.

This is why the AdMech plunders derelict ships and Space Hulks. They can recover grav-plating (which provides artificial gravity on starships... a technology lost to the Imperium) and Warp Engines, as well as other pre-Heresy technologies that may otherwise be lost in the Imperium.

Psi where are you getting all that, grav plating is not lost to the imperium, infact it's one of the most common types of tech used in starships, anti grav civilian transport (yep they exist in 40k) land speeders.

Also the ad mech do understand how warp engines work, there are several stories where an ad mech priest comments on the loss of efficiency compared to earlier models and how more recent tech has enabled better development of transference to and from the warp.

Gents the imperium does advance, slowly but it happens, stop with all the fan fiction about how they do not ever advance, keyword l...ever

I recall from Battlefleet:Gothic that Orks are arguably more advanced in terms of teleportation and shielding than anyone other than the Necrons; in regards to shielding, they're probably more advanced than the 'crons are.

 Melissia wrote:
I recall from Battlefleet:Gothic that Orks are arguably more advanced in terms of teleportation and shielding than anyone other than the Necrons; in regards to shielding, they're probably more advanced than the 'crons are.

Yep totally correct mellisia, ork tech also advances to the threat they face so vs necrons they would have a horrifying tech level, but still ded orky

Majsharan wrote:
Best Tech
Necron
Eldar

Second best tech
Tau

3 best tech
IOM

4th best tech
orks

5th best tech
Tyranid (whats tech?)

The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

 Formosa wrote:
Psi where are you getting all that, grav plating is not lost to the imperium, infact it's one of the most common types of tech used in starships, anti grav civilian transport (yep they exist in 40k) land speeders.

Also the ad mech do understand how warp engines work, there are several stories where an ad mech priest comments on the loss of efficiency compared to earlier models and how more recent tech has enabled better development of transference to and from the warp.

Gents the imperium does advance, slowly but it happens, stop with all the fan fiction about how they do not ever advance, keyword l...ever

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Speeder#.UpOimCfAaEo

Land Speeders are based on STC data recovered in M31 by the famous Techno-archaeologist Arkhan Land, and afterwards became widely produced and used throughout the Imperium. Land Speeders were also originally used by the Imperial Guard, but since then the plasma and anti-gravity technologies required to produce them have become increasingly rare and hard to maintain.[1] Only extremely resource rich planets like Ryza or organisations such as the Space Marines can afford to create them.

The anti-gravitic plates which give the Land Speeder its ability to fly remains a mystery restricted mostly to the Tech-Magos of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

From: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Jetbike#.UpOjBifAaEo

After the Horus Heresy however, the ability to produce them was eventually lost and now only one Imperial jetbike is known to exist.

The technology used in the production of these jetbikes has long since been lost to the Imperium. The only jetbike known to survive into the 41st Millennium is Corvex, used by the Grand Master of the Ravenwing company of the Dark Angels chapter, currently Sammael.

This leads us to believe that all grav/anti-grav tech is not the same (and, in fact, cannot be). These two vehicles make use of anti-grav technology... that has nothing to do with technology that creates a stable gravitic field that allows you to walk on a kilometer long spaceship.

 Psienesis wrote:
Regarding the Adeptus Mechanicus, there is a guy on 1d4Chan who wrote what is, I think, the best description of what their status is and why things are the way they are in the Imperium.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

Skip down to the part that begins "Why Everything Is So Grimdark?"

In short? While the AdMech might be hording technology, they aren't hording some golden paradise for humanity. Things in the Imperium are the way that they are and it is the absolute best option of all the sh*tty options available.

That's a pretty epic way of putting it. Best I have ever heard of grimdark.

Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.