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 Gunhead1 wrote:

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

With Orks i think how mechanical knowledge is imprinted in their genes is just like how our body knows how to breath automatically and blink etc, granted on a far more advanced scale, but still done naturally with no engineering of the genes by an outside entity for every single Ork. With Tyranids it is still natural biology that is manipulated to deal with new situations but not using technology it just just evolution to the lifeforms or problem it encounters. Just as birds beaks evolved over thousands of years to excel at eating a specific food type depending in the species, Tyranids do that just at a meteoric rate.
With SM i fully agree that is biotech, gene therapy and genetic modification to make them super soldiers, using technology as the manipulator, not coming from a natural manipulation technique.

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 uk_crow wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
The tyranids use bio tech its not mechanical, but its is tech and its freaking good tech what other race uses bio space ships and makes an army out their enemies corpses. What is with this bug hate.

In my point of view, that's biology. Does a whale have better 'bio tech' than me because it can dive deeper than me? Does a spider have better 'bio tech' than me because it can spin webs and develop incredibly powerful venoms?

Tyranids are vastly superior biologically make up that allows them to evolve and change at a stupendous rate.

I can understand that, but to me the same can be said of the Orks everything that they do tech wise is been imprinted into their genes so that in itself is bio tech. Natural biology doesn't led to what the tyranids are, not saying it couldn't happen, but at the same time they could have been made into a weapon that just got out of control. Also look at space marines there is a lot of bio tech that went into those guys.

With Orks i think how mechanical knowledge is imprinted in their genes is just like how our body knows how to breath automatically and blink etc, granted on a far more advanced scale, but still done naturally with no engineering of the genes by an outside entity for every single Ork. With Tyranids it is still natural biology that is manipulated to deal with new situations but not using technology it just just evolution to the lifeforms or problem it encounters. Just as birds beaks evolved over thousands of years to excel at eating a specific food type depending in the species, Tyranids do that just at a meteoric rate.
With SM i fully agree that is biotech, gene therapy and genetic modification to make them super soldiers, using technology as the manipulator, not coming from a natural manipulation technique.

.
The thing is that the Tyranids biology is complexly unnatural, their evolution is guided in contrast with natural one which is "blind". They are also incredible efficient (it is actually impossible to be that efficient in RL) and their organism can match the war engines of other species. In many ways a Carnifex is more similar to a tank than to a RL animal.

Well, let's not compare RL animals from a given biosphere to aliens from another galaxy. That is worse than an apples-to-oranges comparison, because at least those two fruits exist within the same operating conditions.

Hmm, maybe what really defines Tyranids biology as bio-technology is that there is an intelligence behind it.

Personally, since all of the Tyranid bio-weapons have, in almost every case, a technological equivalent, one could make comparisons between their "tech" and the tech of other races.

You could, for example, look at the capabilities and functions of a Spore Mine and compare it to the mines and seeker-drones of other factions and draw parallels of ability to see which has the better mine.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

That was just a list of superior tech the tau have no equivalent off, and a separate paragraph so not saying they are items that have been upgraded

Thanks for proving my point on sammaels bikes power saurce and correcting my spelling haha

Grav weapons are still mass produced even if it is lost tech, million space marine chapters and every squad can have one like plasma weapons, rare but clearly massed produced, and I never said it was new just a bit of tech tau do not have an equivalent of and do not have the tech level to build as far as we know.

Like it or lump it guys, tau simply don't have the high end tech the imperials do, they have a better understanding of tech, innovate faster and have a better baseline tech, none of this equals better overall tech

 Formosa wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Well the lexi is wrong (surprise surprise) the eisenhorn books feature a whole subsector that uses anti grav civilian vehicles, so does ravenor, whole guard regiments use anti grav tech (crude but they exist) there are grav fields used on heavy weapons and in terminator armour to help stabilise them, all starships use grav stabilizers across the whole ship and if this tech was so rare then there is no way that there would be enough to outfit even the massive frigates the imperials use, the arkan land bit of fluff is very old (from the index astartes land raider white dwarf) aswell so was pre eisenhorn I believe.

The issue with the jetbike isn't the stabilizer that lifts it, its the power sauce, materials and weapon systems, the hh books tell us that even during the great crusade these were hard to build.

And grav/anti grav tech in every sci fi setting ever is the same thing, it's simply reversing the gravitational field from pulling to pushing or off completely, this is also how land speeders adjust lift.

Another piece of kit that is mass produced is the graviton/grav guns, these are able to adjust the gravitational field of an object at range, nothing the tau have as far as I know comes close to this, then we have conversion beamers, lightning guns, dark light cannons, viral tech, neutron lasers and localised rad tech and phosphex... When we compare weapons of war tau seem woefully outclassed by the high end imperial tech, but basic tech we have pulse rifles, drones, etc,

The imperials out tech tau at the top end as I and others have said, but do not have the basic level if tech tau have, hence

Imprial 4/5/6
Tau 1/2/3/4

Tau have the building blocks to work from, the imperials have what they have left, some understood and able to be improved upon, others barely understood and feared.

Power sauce? Like, a condiment for your chips? Does Sammael's jetbike run on mayonnaise and Thousand Island dressing?

The rest of the tech you've listed there, especially the conversion beamers, are pre-Heresy in origin. Not new guns, and are all considered "rare relics".

"A Grav-gun, also known as a Graviton Gun, is a devastating weapon employed by the Adeptus Astartes based on ancient and forgotten technology dating back to the time of the Dark Age of Technology."

This is not new tech to the Imperium, it's a recovered relic that they probably don't understand how it works, they just know if they put Tab A into Slot B, they get one.

That was just a list of superior tech the tau have no equivalent off, and a separate paragraph so not saying they are items that have been upgraded

Thanks for proving my point on sammaels bikes power saurce and correcting my spelling haha

Grav weapons are still mass produced even if it is lost tech, million space marine chapters and every squad can have one like plasma weapons, rare but clearly massed produced, and I never said it was new just a bit of tech tau do not have an equivalent of and do not have the tech level to build as far as we know.

Like it or lump it guys, tau simply don't have the high end tech the imperials do, they have a better understanding of tech, innovate faster and have a better baseline tech, none of this equals better overall tech

It depends on whether you are looking for the best tech, no matter how rare or impossible to produce (Imp) or better tech average (Tau). I think what needs to be defined, is if we are looking ate average tech or best tech. By your reasoning a third world country in which most people have never even seen an electricity, but one person has the most advanced tech in the world is more technically advanced than america or Britain.

Mass produced? The Codex says that they're entrusted only to the most-senior of Tech Marines.

million space marine chapters

Uh, there's only one million Space Marines *total*. One thousand Chapters of one thousand Marines (by the Codex. Yes, some Chapters are much larger than others... many have 50 guys or less left.). You have squads of 5 Marines, and let's assume, for sake of argument, that they break up every Chapter into 5-man squads. That's 200 squads per Chapter. Each one gets 1 Grav-Gun. That's 200,000 grav-guns existing *in the entire Imperium*.

That's an *incredibly* rare piece of equipment on a galactic scale.

 Tyran wrote:
Hmm, maybe what really defines Tyranids biology as bio-technology is that there is an intelligence behind it.

To put it precisely, what makes Tyrannid technology technology, and not just animal life, is that it is designed. Domesticate a wolf - that's not technology. Selectively breed it over generations to get a spaniel - you've started to take some steps but it's still not technology. Splice genes together in a test-tube to create a dog with octopus tentacles - that's technology.

Tyranids have a tech tree. The problem is that it is a different tree to everyone else's. It's growing alongside and we can say it's taller or wider than the other, but it's very difficult to compare whether an venom cannon is more or less advanced than a bolter - they're really different things. All you can really do is assess it on effectiveness. And I agree with the OP that this is the best way to approach it - to say: "Tyranids have a way of doing X, humans do not, therefore Tyranids gain +1 on the Tech Tree comparison for that". Where I disagree is that the OP seems inclined to assess everything based on raw power and that is not the same as tech tree. Yes, a hundred thousand swarming critters might overwhelm a Tau battleline, but that doesn't mean that an individual critter that can spit acid twenty feet is technologically superior to the Tau in its suit. Do not confuse numbers or resources with advancement. Tyranids are hard to place, but I think I'd put them somewhere in the middle. They're impressive, but I think some have mistaken numbers and scale, for sophistication. Much of what they rely on is psychic which I'm not classing as technology.

The Tau vs. IoM, is two different arguments muddled up. The IoM has very powerful technology, hugely advanced. The IoM understands relatively little of it and it is not widely distributed. The Tau have pretty good technology but it is also understood and pervasive. I would actually rate the IoM higher than the Tau in raw terms. The Tau, after all, are perhaps a few centuries ahead of where we are in the real world. It wont be a hundred years before we have very capable automated drones that exceed the capabilities of human warriors in many ways. Exosuits? Already starting to come within our reach (chief problem is going to be power-source). Whereas the IoM is thousands and thousands of years ahead of us. There are million incredible secrets of technology embedded in every space craft and titan, that I don't think the Tau have even guessed at yet. But in terms of understanding technology, the Tau are far ahead of the Imperium and accelerating. And the knowledge is disseminated, not hoarded by an insular cabal of tech-fetishists.

My own ranking would be something like this:

0: C'tan, Old Ones.
1a: Necron
1b: Eldar
2: IoM, Tyranids
3: Tau, Orks

Deamons, et al. I omit from the list - that is not technology.

Note, I put the Necrons and Eldar as A and B in the same category to indicate that I think they are very close and there's a fair degree of overlap between the two. The Necrons have things the Eldar probably can't do or do as easily, but the Eldar can do a lot of it (especially Dark Eldar who have a bit of an edge over their craftworld cousins). The Necrons aren't so much above the Eldar as they are two-foot taller. Both are substantially above the IoM not only because they can do more, but because they actually understand their technology and it is widely available amongst them. Yes, I put the IoM above the Tau. There is simply much they can do that the Tau can not. And I'm assessing this on what technology they actually have, not the cultures that use it. Which has the best technology? You with the multi-core computer you have in front of you, or Henry Ford with the four-cylinder motorcar that he designed himself? For all that Henry Ford is a better engineer than you (probably), the answer is you. Even if you only bought / were given the computer and work it just because you know this chip here goes into that socket there whilst reciting the Holy Motherboard Layout Diagram.

Orks - no, sorry. I don't accept they have god like technology. A lot of advanced stuff is buried in their genes and some of it others don't necessarily understand, but it is patchy and crude. Yes, I said it - crude. Tau are not, imo, super-technologically sophisticated. What they are, is super-users of technology. That every Tau is armed to the teeth with cool toys, doesn't make them more advanced than a team of marines with a gravgun between them. Breadth is not height.

My opinion.

 Formosa wrote:
If we're talking space marine vs tau tech then we have

Space marine
True anti grav
Gravweapons
Gene tech
Mk 7/8 armour IS better than battlesuit armour, takes up less space and uses less material to make one, it has the same vision suite and a more enhanced audio one (mainly due to marine itself) the power source I do not know as I do not know the what power the battlesuit use, armament is equivalent in both as marines can carry the same range of equipment the tau can, we also have articifer armour for a 2+ save with no increase in mass or noticeable size unlike the iridium armoured model.
Medical tech, tau have no narthecium equivalent, stim injectors are rare.
Dreadnoughts are more advanced than tau equivalents due to the cybernetics and miu.

But the whole point of this is to point out that imperial tech is higher up the tree than tau, but tau have better tech overall

I.e

Imperium tech level 4/5/6
Tau tech level 1/2/3/4/5

Now if go dark age tech it's
Humans 1/2/3//4/5/6/7/8/9 ad infinatum

The Tau don't gene splice because they find it somewhat crude, as a race they have already genetically altered themselves in terms of evolution, so the Marine point is moot.

Standard transport is a skimmer with antigrav vs a Rhino or Chimera, so your anti-grav point is wrong.

As to more advanced battle armor, no. The Tau battlesuit has been downgraded somewhat, where as Marines used to have limited range Auspexes, all battlesuits used to come with an unlimited range auspex. Lots of fun telling Tyranid players they had to reveal their lictors from the get go. A useful and little used rule. It is also more mobile and can pack a larger suite of weapons. So not inferior at all (better sensors, better mobility, better strength and protective abilities, larger range of standard armaments, etc)

Medical tech - We do know the Tau make use of various cybernetic devices, but nothing as crude as many of the Imperial ones. We've seen examples of eyes and limbs, that generally work with less bugs than Imperial models, so this point is also moot.

Dreadnoughts would be distasteful to the Tau, reanimating the dead like that isn't their mo. However, even a normal battlesuit is able to be configured to let even quadriplegics pilot them. Additionally, the Tau can and do use variations on the StarWars Holocron, that map out a Tau's brain and let him/her guide and act long after they are dead. See Commander Puretide, Puretide Neuro Engram, one of Farsight's 'Eight'. So this point is also wrong and moot.

Medical - In what way are they inferior? Unlike needing to use Dreadnoughts, they can often save such Tau from 'dying' in the first place and fighting on as living corpses stuck in a dreadnought. Similarly wounded individuals that are saved are not forced to remain in such tombs, but often get out and about with cybernetic enhancements to replace lost organs.

The Tau don't have warp travel per say, but then their means of space travel is safer and quicker over very short distances (no need to risk goofy laws of time jumping across small distances).

The Imperium does have certain bits of Dark Age tech that the Tau might not match, but then the Imperium cannot produce safe and efficient plasma rifles for every trooper (the pulse rifle is a plasma weapon, that fires plasma, meaning every Firewarrior wields a plasma gun of sorts).

Tau are not, imo, super-technologically sophisticated. What they are, is super-users of technology. That every Tau is armed to the teeth with cool toys, doesn't make them more advanced than a team of marines with a gravgun between them. Breadth is not height.

The Tau, however, have never needed to build Titans, or grav-guns. This is not to say that they can't, but they are just now expanding into the stars and just now getting into the wars and such that plagued pre-Imperial humanity in its colonization of the stars. The Tau do not have tens of thousands of years of constant warfare to drive the weapons technology that the Imperium has had (and lost).

However, when we look at things like Crisis Suits and compare them to Power Armor, we see that the Crisis Suit is far-and-away more advanced. Same if we compare the pulse-rifle to the lasgun or the bolter.

It is inevitable that, if the Tau decide to develop a grav-gun weapon, it will almost assuredly be better than those the Imperium manages to bang out.

Co tor that is not my logic, my logic is that that the imperials have a wider range of superior tech across the entire length of the imperium than the tau have, to use your analogy if that 3rd world country had masses of ultra hight tech compared to the relatively small amount of high tech, then yes I would say overall it's technology is more advanced and it clearly has no bearing on the bottom level of that culture.

The million chapters was my derp I meant space marines, and yes the grav guns are incredibly rare but it still represents tech the tau have no answer to.

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

Oh wow amazing that you noticed something stated several times before, lawks...if only you had read my previous post you would know this.

The land speeder typhoon, invented after horus heresy, uses land speeder chasis, development.

Storm shields, came up with by salamanders during great crusade, actually invented not an stc, based upon boarding shields no doubt, later becoming storm shields post heresy

Land raider crusader and redeemer, invented after hh, developed from the land raider stc. Development

Pred annihilator, as above, development

There are more developments such as terminator mounted plasma cannons, assault cannons (formally rotor cannons) etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something you all seem to be missing is my distinction between lost and rare tech that is highly advanced and the developed equipment that the imperials have made, I have repeatedly shown and given proof that the imperium does indeed innovate albeit rather slowly, also that the tech the imperium owns is so wildly out of the current tau tech range is mad (dark age tech)

The imperials have this tech, some is rare beyond belief (grav guns) but still manufactured in tiny numbers (plasma tech), to development and invention (bolters and power armour), all the way to Gene tech (juvenates) viral tech (virus bombs and pathogens that kill nids) to medical tech (narthecium), imperial tech overall is higher

The narthecium is not particularly advanced, it's simply a field surgery tool mounted to a forearm gauntlet. There's nothing in it that is particularly high-tech.

There is also the fact that we have, in both codices and BL fluff, a whole lotta stuff on Space Marines and the Imperium, and relatively nothing on the Tau, not in the sense that we get a spotlight on their stuff as a protagonist/POV characters.

 Formosa wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Storm shields were invented by the salamanders during the heresy

Developing different marks of armour with improvements over the last mark is exactly what tau do, power armour mark 1-8 and articifer armour, xv80-88 etc are developments of previous armour and are thus scavenging.

Terminator armour are fully operational I do not know what you get that from, they are hard to produce and rare if that's what you mean, ot, cataphractii armour is mk1 I think, then we have the mini contemptors armour, then we have the armour the old metal minis are made of, recently we have the extra plates modern terminator armour and lastly grey knight terminator armour. That development.

"most of that existed during the great crusade"
The things that did not
Storm shiels
Pred annihilaters
Land raider redeemer
crusader
Land speeder typhoons
These were developed either during the horus heresy or the time that followed

Everything you note there are STC constructs, and some of them are still not in use by all forms of the Imperium as being 'to newly discovered' and thus not 'vetted' enough. So, not invented by the Imperium at all, but rather recovered from the Dark Age of Technology.

Oh wow amazing that you noticed something stated several times before, lawks...if only you had read my previous post you would know this.

The land speeder typhoon, invented after horus heresy, uses land speeder chasis, development.

Storm shields, came up with by salamanders during great crusade, actually invented not an stc, based upon boarding shields no doubt, later becoming storm shields post heresy

Land raider crusader and redeemer, invented after hh, developed from the land raider stc. Development

Pred annihilator, as above, development

There are more developments such as terminator mounted plasma cannons, assault cannons (formally rotor cannons) etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something you all seem to be missing is my distinction between lost and rare tech that is highly advanced and the developed equipment that the imperials have made, I have repeatedly shown and given proof that the imperium does indeed innovate albeit rather slowly, also that the tech the imperium owns is so wildly out of the current tau tech range is mad (dark age tech)

The imperials have this tech, some is rare beyond belief (grav guns) but still manufactured in tiny numbers (plasma tech), to development and invention (bolters and power armour), all the way to Gene tech (juvenates) viral tech (virus bombs and pathogens that kill nids) to medical tech (narthecium), imperial tech overall is higher

Actually, I read them just fine, you did not. All of those 'developments' were STC blueprints recovered after the heresy. They were generally not invented at all. They are variation blueprints that were later recovered and not innovated. Thank you for being a troll though.

As an example:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Land_Raider_Crusader#.UpPyOMROOM4

So, a tech priest had to discover the long lost arcanum to enable him to figure out how to strap bolters to the side of a tank. So no, you provided no examples that I can see of innovation.

The one area you can say they innovated, power armor, and in ten thousand years they managed to go from Mk 6 to just barely rolling out Mk 8. Wow, 10k years to come up with 2 upgrades, one of which is just barely being implemented. That is anything other than innovation.

Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

Iom has better top end tech. Tau have better tech on there avg. Soldiers

One of the arguments that I have read is that the tau battlesuit is better than a SM I view this argument to be wrong for a couple of reasons. One first off is that its comparing apples to oranges and by this I mean that they are meant for two different kinds of warfare SM are meant more for spec op hit hard and fast and defeat the enemy before they even know your there. Where as the battlesuits are meant as an elite fighting force like the U.S. marines. Second SM power armor is meant more for protection than adding to the wearer's abilities. It does have some nice features like ammo count, telling one where friendlies and enemies are , making sure that you are the only one using your weapon, and boosting the wearer's capabilities like strength. The battlesuit has all of its abilities built in and can take more also GW has bothered to show these abilities in game where as the SMs even though their abilities are more and better due to the fact that all of theirs are done by gene seed and added by their special organs GW has not bothered to even give SMs night vision even though they can see in the dark its not in game.

The abilities the SMs have are amazing and out do the tau battlesuit because its not the armor that gives them their abilities its the bio tech used which is far ahead of what the tau have. Now I understand that its a tech that is lost and once a gene seed is gone its gone, but this to me at least has more to due with the fact that it was made by the Emperor himself and to alter it or to try to remake it is heresy, not because that they can't do it(which I have to admit is probably true).

To Raiden
I believe that to be a true statement.

 raiden wrote:
Iom has better top end tech. Tau have better tech on there avg. Soldiers

I agree completely.

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc - it is STC, they just bolted a lascannon on. Okay, I'll give you .25 points for minor modification, but if innovation means bolting something onto a chasis that is designed to be modularly changed about, that's pretty lame for a 'innovation' bonus

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc - I can't find the history on it, suffice to say some form of "storm shield" were in use from early periods prior to the heresy, so

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc - stated to be from STC design, it isn't different other than bolting on a missile launcher

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc - Terminator Armor dates to the Dark Age of Technology, not invented by the Dark Angels: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour It is mildly extrapolated, I will give you that given that it is basically just Terran Deep Space Mining armor.

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons - great, so innovation means a gatling gun which has been around since the civil war, i.e. regurgitated technology from the past.

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

See above and here as well:

I will give you large scale destructive firepower, and I think as others have said, at the far end of the spectrum the Tau don't have that, but the middle of the spectrum the Tau outshine and outpace the Imperium pretty easily.

They don't need geller fields or warp engines, they have void shields, tyranid fleet killing biological weapons, self genetically advanced (about the one thing you have there is poor 'juvenat' treatments and a few other esoteric things the Tau wouldn't do even if they could), etc.

Virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes okay, but neither of those are really in the Tau MO. Bombing a planet to ashes pretty much means it cannot be used by the Tau afterwards, which would be counter productive to the Greater Good. I would also give various forms of genetic engineering, though most of those are due to Tau mental preferenes and not a lack of ability (they're not going to build an Eversor because that would be perceived as abhorant to do to a Tau).

As to Tau battlesuits vs Power Armor. They do have 'special forces' battle armor which does everything power armor does and then tops it. It's called Stealth Armor. Their armor is more advanced that Marines + Power Armor, it makes them stronger, enhances their durability to equivalent levels, has better coms systems, better scanning systems, better command and control systems, etc. In what possible way is power armor better other than being smaller than a XV8, and given the XV15 and XV25 pretty much do everything power armor does and then adds on a more technology.

The Tau don't do long range communication like the Imperium, but then that isn't technology based but psychic based, so that's moot.

Their 'titans' smoke Imperial Titans, cost less, are easier to produce, can do more/are more adaptable, also carry void shields or their equivalents....

This whole thread screams TLDR

but here is my list

Tier1
eldar
necron
ctan

Tier 2
Tau


Tier 3
IOM
Chaos
Orks

Tier 4
Tyranids

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc - it is STC, they just bolted a lascannon on. Okay, I'll give you .25 points for minor modification, but if innovation means bolting something onto a chasis that is designed to be modularly changed about, that's pretty lame for a 'innovation' bonus

Storm shields, developed by salamanders not stc - I can't find the history on it, suffice to say some form of "storm shield" were in use from early periods prior to the heresy, so

Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc - stated to be from STC design, it isn't different other than bolting on a missile launcher

Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc - Terminator Armor dates to the Dark Age of Technology, not invented by the Dark Angels: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Terminator_Armour It is mildly extrapolated, I will give you that given that it is basically just Terran Deep Space Mining armor.

Assault cannon, outright developed not stc, made from rotor cannons - great, so innovation means a gatling gun which has been around since the civil war, i.e. regurgitated technology from the past.

As stated slow but not non existent.

The narthecium is an example of wider use of medical tech and it also represents the apothecarys other equipment, though poorly on tt due to reductor no longer existing.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

See above and here as well:

I will give you large scale destructive firepower, and I think as others have said, at the far end of the spectrum the Tau don't have that, but the middle of the spectrum the Tau outshine and outpace the Imperium pretty easily.

They don't need geller fields or warp engines, they have void shields, tyranid fleet killing biological weapons, self genetically advanced (about the one thing you have there is poor 'juvenat' treatments and a few other esoteric things the Tau wouldn't do even if they could), etc.

Virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes okay, but neither of those are really in the Tau MO. Bombing a planet to ashes pretty much means it cannot be used by the Tau afterwards, which would be counter productive to the Greater Good. I would also give various forms of genetic engineering, though most of those are due to Tau mental preferenes and not a lack of ability (they're not going to build an Eversor because that would be perceived as abhorant to do to a Tau).

As to Tau battlesuits vs Power Armor. They do have 'special forces' battle armor which does everything power armor does and then tops it. It's called Stealth Armor. Their armor is more advanced that Marines + Power Armor, it makes them stronger, enhances their durability to equivalent levels, has better coms systems, better scanning systems, better command and control systems, etc. In what possible way is power armor better other than being smaller than a XV8, and given the XV15 and XV25 pretty much do everything power armor does and then adds on a more technology.

The Tau don't do long range communication like the Imperium, but then that isn't technology based but psychic based, so that's moot.

Their 'titans' smoke Imperial Titans, cost less, are easier to produce, can do more/are more adaptable, also carry void shields or their equivalents....

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc
Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc
Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Those aren't inventions, those are just examples of bolting existing weapons onto an existing hull. Having a terminator carry a plasma cannon instead of a heavy flamer isn't new technology, just like having a real-world soldier pick up a machine gun instead of a rifle isn't inventing something new. The fact that you have to desperately reach for bad examples like that to demonstrate "progress" in the Imperium's technology only highlights how pathetic they are.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

You're making the mistake of listing a bunch of technobabble names instead of asking what those things do. For example, so what if Tau don't have volcano cannons, they have heavy railguns which accomplish the same end result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian.

Tau don't use titans because large bipedal walkers are an incredibly stupid idea. Instead Tau use large numbers of conventional tanks and heavy aircraft like the Manta and Tigershark.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Annihilator, developed by space wolves, not stc
Typhoon pattern land speeder, developed by taking a totally different land speeder and adapting weapons to fit, not stc
Plasma cannon terminator, developed by dark angels, not stc

Those aren't inventions, those are just examples of bolting existing weapons onto an existing hull. Having a terminator carry a plasma cannon instead of a heavy flamer isn't new technology, just like having a real-world soldier pick up a machine gun instead of a rifle isn't inventing something new. The fact that you have to desperately reach for bad examples like that to demonstrate "progress" in the Imperium's technology only highlights how pathetic they are.

Now show me where in the tau armoury or fluff the nuetron weapons, barrage bombs, cyclonic torpedoes, vortex technology, geller fields, virus bombs, rad grenades, phosphex, void shields, volcano cannons, genetic engineering, warp engines, etc are as all this is beyond there current ethos nanotech

You're making the mistake of listing a bunch of technobabble names instead of asking what those things do. For example, so what if Tau don't have volcano cannons, they have heavy railguns which accomplish the same end result.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian.

Tau don't use titans because large bipedal walkers are an incredibly stupid idea. Instead Tau use large numbers of conventional tanks and heavy aircraft like the Manta and Tigershark.

Thank you this I can understand. Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, huge target profile, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry. Though I don't think they need priceless relic technology to function there like baneblades their just inferior copies of the original which is mentioned in The Grey Knight Omnibus.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
Though in the defense of all the races that use them they do sport heavy fire power and powerful shields and if your opponent is shooting at your titans then they are not shooting at your conventional units which are free to go to town on the enemy and if your opponent ignores the titan well it can go to town on the enemy as well.

But a superheavy tank (or squadron of superheavy tanks) would accomplish the same result but do it better. Titans have inherent problems (ground pressure, huge target profile, poor stability, incredibly bad geometry for maximizing armor thickness per unit of weight) that make them a really stupid idea. This is where you see the difference between the Imperium and the Tau: the Imperium obsesses over their religious icons and blind faith that old things are good, so you get things like titans that require priceless relic technology just to function. Meanwhile the Tau are pragmatic enough to realize that titans are a stupid idea, so they build much more effective alternatives.

I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

Vendablefall wrote:
This whole thread screams TLDR

but here is my list

Tier1
eldar
necron
ctan

Tier 2
Tau


Tier 3
IOM
Chaos
Orks

Tier 4
Tyranids

Chaos probably shouldn't have a rank. Chaos represents IOM tech, xenos tech, illegal tech, and then warp infused magic tech that defies all comperhension. Also Chaos daemons are kinda like Nids how they are low on tech but their weapons are so maddening that they don't really quite care. They can travel super fast (control the warp).