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 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

 Peregrine wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I am sorry, but the cannons on a titan will wipe out that entire squadron of tanks and then some.... in one shot.

We're talking about titan-size tanks, not just random LRBTs. Any gun that can wipe out a titan-size tank will easily do the same to a titan, since the titan has much thinner armor and can be killed by anything that hits it hard enough to knock it off balance a bit.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
All good points, but this is 40k so.....yeah even if in the real world titans are not really a good in 40k they still will ruin your day in some name of hurry.

But that's because of their priceless relic technology. It's the equivalent of taking a WWI tank back to the 1500s. Sure, the WWI tank is an incredibly bad design, but it has such an advantage in raw firepower/defense/etc that it will still win. But if you send that WWI tank against a tank built with WWI technology but modern design knowledge it's going to die very quickly. It's the same situation with titans: they badly misuse the technology they're built with, but that technology was good enough to allow for some stupidity in the name of making a walking religious shrine and still win against lower-technology opponents. But against equal-technology opponents the titan army is going to be massacred. It's just fortunate for the Imperium that their most common opponents are equally stupid and bring titans of their own.

And of course the fact that the Imperium is unable to take that technology and use it to build sensible vehicles is one of the reasons why they rank so low on the scale.

I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

Well, the Tau do have that one flying fortress thing....Manta? I think it was called? But that's Forgeworld.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

No, Tau don't get titans because their fluff specifically states that they choose not to use titans. Titans are an inherently ineffective design, and don't fit at all with the Tau strategy of mobile warfare. So instead their heaviest vehicles are aircraft (or small spacecraft, in the case of the Manta). And those aircraft are capable of fighting titans and winning. A Manta can slug it out and win (though probably with heavy damage), and a railgun Tigershark can kill a Warhound with a single shot.

And the Riptide should not exist. It's a case of GW trampling all over the fluff because it will sell another $80 kit.

I can see and understand how Tau might be lower than IOM in technology. Like someone said earlier, IOM has a better top range of weapon, but the Tau have superior mid grade weapons.

However, what I take offense at is the placement of Orks. Orks are level 2. People see simple and think of it as crude. Orks high end tech blows away most things not Necron. They have stable, dependable, teleport technology and can and do use it on a massive scale. Their shield tech is second to none. Lets see IOM put shields around an entire asteroid. Orks can. Just because orks are bad shots, doesn't make their rokkits any less damaging than IOM missile launchers. Yeah, they are shorter range, but that's not really an issue when the ork wielding it is running full speed towards the enemy. Their Dakkaguns show they can play the long range game too. The shokk attack gun is a marvel. What IOM weapon can open a small hole in the warp and transport a live squig inside of a different target. Sure you might scratch your head at why would someone invent something like that, but the fact that it does exist and the IOM has no clue how to do it, thats something else entirely.

The Ork zzap gun is awesome. It was at one point the most powerful gun in the entire game. 2D6 strength, 2D6 armor pen. AP2, auto hit. I can't think of a single weapon the IOM has that can pen AV 21. Ork tankbusta bombs has hands down better than meltabombs. 2D6 is not nearly as effective as D6*2.

You can throw out names like vortex bombs or what have you, but how many of use remember pulsa rokkits? Yeah, orks can bring just as much pain. Just because the package doesn't look as nice, doesn't mean the job gets any less done. Take a P-fist vs Power Claw. The end result is the same however the package looks very different, and in the grand scheme of things which of the two do you think would be easier to maintain, duplicate, recharge, etc.

The AK-47 might not be the deadliest assault weapon on the planet, but its almost always picked as the best assault weapon ever made by those who study such things (as said by numerous shows that show up on the history/discovery channel)

I think the most interesting thing in this thread is how little much of the race's technology can be directly compared. You have the Tyranids who have pursued an entirely different technology path to everyone else and the best that we can do is compare it based on capability. That's not really comparing technological advancement, just capability: some things are easier ways to do things than others. Making precise corners and precision wielding for construction is easy for mechanics, hard for biology. But cellular reproduction - easy for biology, near impossible for mechanics. So when you pick a task to compare on, you may be picking something that isn't very advanced for one path, but is the pinnacle of achievement for the other.

And again with the Orks. Can we actually say any of the orks understand their technology? Barely. The mekboyz are going by instincts encoded in their ancestral memories. They build amazing devices in the same way that birds build nests: throwing a twig here, a bit of fabric there. Their devices actually are crude, because they're not saying "we need 15 22mm bolts here, a steel plate of these dimensions...". They're like magpies grabbing all sorts of stuff and assembling something that does the job ad hoc. Orks are Scrap Heap Challenge on steroids. An ork battle wagon probably takes a hundred times as much maintenance as a Rhino, consumes a hundred times as much fuel. The only thing that keeps Ork technology running, is the frantic mad pleasure a mekboy takes in repairing it, tearing it apart and rebuilding it and adding things. Ork technology is like an elephant standing on its trunk. We're not impressed because it does it well, we're stunned that it does it at all. How do you compare something like that to the Eldar or Necrons? The race has almost no grasp of technology at a conscious level and everything they build is the mechanical equivalent of a 50' Jenga tower. It's like trying to compare a nuclear explosion to a power station. One is steady and understood and controlled, the other might give off more energy but it is none of those things - it's an explosion.

IoM vs. Tau? Are you talking mode technology level, or peak? Do you evaluate merely on who HAS the highest technology, or who has the most technological understanding.

I think this debate is actually showing one thing very well - that direct comparison of technology between races is pretty hard. And that's realistic to me and quite fun. Technology Tree is a good term. You can't easily say X is higher then Y in many cases. They're just different branches. It's only easy to compare if they're the same branch.

knas ser wrote:
I think the most interesting thing in this thread is how little much of the race's technology can be directly compared. You have the Tyranids who have pursued an entirely different technology path to everyone else and the best that we can do is compare it based on capability. That's not really comparing technological advancement, just capability: some things are easier ways to do things than others. Making precise corners and precision wielding for construction is easy for mechanics, hard for biology. But cellular reproduction - easy for biology, near impossible for mechanics. So when you pick a task to compare on, you may be picking something that isn't very advanced for one path, but is the pinnacle of achievement for the other.

And again with the Orks. Can we actually say any of the orks understand their technology? Barely. The mekboyz are going by instincts encoded in their ancestral memories. They build amazing devices in the same way that birds build nests: throwing a twig here, a bit of fabric there. Their devices actually are crude, because they're not saying "we need 15 22mm bolts here, a steel plate of these dimensions...". They're like magpies grabbing all sorts of stuff and assembling something that does the job ad hoc. Orks are Scrap Heap Challenge on steroids. An ork battle wagon probably takes a hundred times as much maintenance as a Rhino, consumes a hundred times as much fuel. The only thing that keeps Ork technology running, is the frantic mad pleasure a mekboy takes in repairing it, tearing it apart and rebuilding it and adding things. Ork technology is like an elephant standing on its trunk. We're not impressed because it does it well, we're stunned that it does it at all. How do you compare something like that to the Eldar or Necrons? The race has almost no grasp of technology at a conscious level and everything they build is the mechanical equivalent of a 50' Jenga tower. It's like trying to compare a nuclear explosion to a power station. One is steady and understood and controlled, the other might give off more energy but it is none of those things - it's an explosion.

IoM vs. Tau? Are you talking mode technology level, or peak? Do you evaluate merely on who HAS the highest technology, or who has the most technological understanding.

I think this debate is actually showing one thing very well - that direct comparison of technology between races is pretty hard. And that's realistic to me and quite fun. Technology Tree is a good term. You can't easily say X is higher then Y in many cases. They're just different branches. It's only easy to compare if they're the same branch.

The higher level Meks do grasp the basics of their technology and are intelligent enough to copy good designs from their enemies.

The Orks started building titans after they faced Imperial Titans during the great crusade.

Lets not forget that Ork teleportation tech is the most advanced teleportation tech around.

Saying that their tech is mostly encoded in their genes is to simple

Someone had mentioned earlier that Orkz also scale their tech to whatever their enemy is fielding against them, like a virus adapting to kill an immune system.

I'm telling you, the wonders of the Orkz is God Tech. They are Lvl 1 if not Lvl 0!

Not exactly... and saying that the Orks have the most dependable teleportation technology is not saying much (nor is it entirely accurate).

The only people you can really compare Ork teleporters... excuse me, telly-portas... to is the Imperium, who are known to lose entire squads of Terminators to the Warp when they try to teleport them somewhere, because their teleportariums are old, decrepit and not-at-all-understood relics of technology. Guess what? Orks vanish into the Warp, too, or arrive as something definitely no-longer-Orky.

Eldar? They have teleportation down pat between their Warp Spiders and webway gates.

Necrons? They teleport across hyperdimensional space by thinking about it.

Tau? Tau don't teleport.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not exactly... and saying that the Orks have the most dependable teleportation technology is not saying much (nor is it entirely accurate).

The only people you can really compare Ork teleporters... excuse me, telly-portas... to is the Imperium, who are known to lose entire squads of Terminators to the Warp when they try to teleport them somewhere, because their teleportariums are old, decrepit and not-at-all-understood relics of technology. Guess what? Orks vanish into the Warp, too, or arrive as something definitely no-longer-Orky.

Eldar? They have teleportation down pat between their Warp Spiders and webway gates.

Necrons? They teleport across hyperdimensional space by thinking about it.

Tau? Tau don't teleport.

1. warp spiders are lost too, any warp travel outside the webway is hazardous, though the eldar have the safest means.
necrons don't use the warp which makes it hard to compare.

Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
I wouldn't really call the Eldar stupid the others I will give you that one, but hey its working. The only reason GW has not given the tau titans of their own is because first they are a young race and second because it just doesn't fit with who they are so they go to the next best thing riptides.

No, Tau don't get titans because their fluff specifically states that they choose not to use titans. Titans are an inherently ineffective design, and don't fit at all with the Tau strategy of mobile warfare. So instead their heaviest vehicles are aircraft (or small spacecraft, in the case of the Manta). And those aircraft are capable of fighting titans and winning. A Manta can slug it out and win (though probably with heavy damage), and a railgun Tigershark can kill a Warhound with a single shot.

And the Riptide should not exist. It's a case of GW trampling all over the fluff because it will sell another $80 kit.

Yeah, the only reason (Fluffwise) that the riptide exists is because it has a jetpack, allowing it to be mobile. The fire caste wanted a more powerful battlesuit, but it was a problem because it must be mobile. The only reason i\they were able to be made mobile enough is because of the nova reactor.

Tiger shark AX-1-0s are built out of existing parts, cost the fraction of a titan, ans so powerful that in their first use against the IOM ONE took down a titian's void shield with a missle barrage, and ONE SHOTTED IT with it's main gun, killing the princept as well.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

Exactly my point.

We have to look at a faction's tech, what its intended role is, how it goes about fulfilling that role, and whether or not it is more, less or as equally effective in doing so as the tech of another faction.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Gunhead1 wrote:

I disagree with your last points. For one your still arguing armor against armor I agree that in terms of all that the armor can do the tau battlesuits are better, but power armor is only really meant for protection everything else is in the SM as I said in my point if you read it. The XV15 and XV25 do not do everything that XV8s do. For one XV25s and XV15s have less toughness and strength than the XV8s and can carry only one of two weapons the burst cannon or a fusion blaster they are not meant for the hard fighting that XV8s are. Also what titans do the tau have besides the riptide which really is not a titian, but the closest that the tau have gotten to a real titian. The riptide is costly only a few exist and for the best effects one has to nova charge which can kill the pilot. Never heard of IOM titian blowing up in one's face. Also the tau's small not really titans are very expensive with the XV107 almost never making it to production and the only way that they got it there was by tricking the Ethereals that they were working on another project when they were really sending the funds to the XV107. There shields are not up to IOM titan levels and the tau have only faced the warhound and Reaver class none of the really big ones. Also how is using psychic based communication moot that makes no sense for they have to use tech to send it and to decode it just because the tau are not psychic doesn't mean that its not valid tech. I mean if that was the case then we should put the Eldar in last place because everything they do is psychic.

1. The XV15/XV25 pack what amounts to the same electronics and internal equipment as the XV8.
2. It is doctrinal that they only carry burst cannons and fusion blasters. We know from fluff they can fire the burst cannon without revealing their position. As such carrying a plasma rifle or flamer makes little sense as it would reveal position as a very visible shot is given off. Nothing implies the suit could not handle plasma, flamers, or missile pods technically given that it already mounts the burst cannon and fusion blaster. It isn't technology which governs who gets what weapons so much as doctrine with the Tau (Rail Rilfes are man portable, as an example, but are not given to Firewarriors, only Pathfinders).
3. The 'Tau Titan', as Peregrine notes, are the Tiger Sharks and Mantas, which are more maneuverable, cheaper, easier to produce, pack weapons just as powerful as anything an Imperial Titan fields, the Manta is equipped with shields equivalent to void shields of titans, and both can also handle troop deployment. The Manta carrying tanks, transports, battlesuits, drones, and troopers that can deploy at high speed. The Tiger Shark carrying drones. Meaning they posses a much larger tactical versatility that Titans do not. Even granting Warhound and Reaver, these fights have been completely lopsided victories for the Tau. A single pass from a single Tiger Shark cratered a Warhound with consummate ease. Being bigger just makes it easier for these vessels to pound them, not make them more protected. So a Manta can move itself between orbit and planetside, deploy ground troops, and smoke enemy armor up to and including Titans.
4. Psychic based communication is moot, it is not technological. The Psyker doesn't need a 'Cerebro' to send a message to another Psyker. It is an innate racial trait that is not based in technology. The Eldar's technology can revolve around the use of psychic energy to power it (all of their tech does not run on it). Imperial psykers don't power a Leman Russ.

You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

I agree that XV25s are different than than XV15s, but XV15s are now obsolete, almost completely replaced by XV25s. It is hard, as it is for everybody, for a manta or tiger shark AX-1-0 to kill a titan but they have the added advantage of being, fat, maneuverable, and hard to hit (also, a tiger shark is the fraction of the cost of a titian).
Battlesuits and SMs are completely different, and really should not be compared as equivalents. The IOM doesn't really have a battlesuit equivalent.

True mantas are cheaper and can transport troops but so can titans and IOM has the resources to build titans in numbers.

 Gunhead1 wrote:




You seem to ignore points. first off the XV25s and XV15s are not on the same level due to what they are designed to do look at the fluff please look at the tau codex it shows you that they are different and don't have the same capabilities. On the mantas they dual the IOM titans not just shoot and your dead. the tau have only ever fought the small ones. If you are going to argue battlesuits vs SMs then at least talk about everything not just armor. For a SM is not good because of his armor alone but because of what goes into him.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Are we now restricting the discussion of Teleportation Technology to Warp-traversing Teleportation? That would, I think, be an unfair limitation on those races that can duplicate the effects of Warp-based technology without actually using the Warp.

After all, the Necron starfleet is capable of FTL speeds, yet do not use the Warp. Does that somehow make their fleet "less advanced"? That position would be laughable.

Depending on perspective, it could make it more advanced as they've skipped the problems of the warp altogether for something safer and as equally effective.

Exactly my point.

We have to look at a faction's tech, what its intended role is, how it goes about fulfilling that role, and whether or not it is more, less or as equally effective in doing so as the tech of another faction.

they have not avoided the wrap they skim it. there are only two races that have avoided it the Eldar and the necrons. the Eldar have the webway which they didn't make the old ones did and the necrons just shoot across space but cannot change direction when they do. because these methos are done by the oldest most powerful races then i highly doubt the tau are going to find a way. not saying they couldn't but not within. anytime soon.

A Tau Crisis Suit is "more advanced" than any personal armor system the Imperium fields, no matter which way you cut it. While it may not be as protective as TDA, for example, it's far more mobile, and packs more advanced support systems. It is so demonstrably superior to flak and standard carapace that the comparison doesn't even begin.

If we want to claim that the standard Tau Fire Warrior is not to be compared to a Space Marine, the only other thing we have in the Imperium to compare it to is some flavor of Guardsman...

... in which case the Tau's wargear is obviously superior in every conceivable way. Hell, the Tau Crisis suit even has a built-in anti-theft device!

 Psienesis wrote:
A Tau Crisis Suit is "more advanced" than any personal armor system the Imperium fields, no matter which way you cut it. While it may not be as protective as TDA, for example, it's far more mobile, and packs more advanced support systems. It is so demonstrably superior to flak and standard carapace that the comparison doesn't even begin.

If we want to claim that the standard Tau Fire Warrior is not to be compared to a Space Marine, the only other thing we have in the Imperium to compare it to is some flavor of Guardsman...

... in which case the Tau's wargear is obviously superior in every conceivable way. Hell, the Tau Crisis suit even has a built-in anti-theft device!

For the love of the Emperor, I'm not arguing armor please read what i wrote the systems in the battlesuits are better than power armor no disagreement, but the SMs have the sensors in their biology due to bio tech. that is what i am saying that how the abilities were achived is better the the tau.

Not really, because SM bio-tech is extremely prone to failure. There are entire Chapters missing certain aspects of their bio-tech because the mutation of their geneseed either prevents it from working, or it doesn't work in the manner originally intended. Or it works in over-drive, leading Chapters to engage in, say, cannibalism.

The bio-tech of the Space Marines is "high tech" but it's no longer on par with the reliable systems of the Tau.

When was the last time you read the tau having bio tech like that and not all the gene seed is falling apart ultramarines anyone.

"Technological breadth isn't the same as technological height" as someone put it is entirely ignoring the very important aspect of "how advanced are their production facilities and methods?"
So, if lots of well equipped Tau do not mean they have highly technological production methods, then I don't know what it means.

Ork tech isn't really technology. If it requires the presence and willingness of an Ork to function in the first place it doesn't qualify as technology. In fact, Technology by definition is methodology or knowledge, and Ork "tech" requires their will and not their know-how which just invalidates it as technology in the first case.

And last but not least, keep in mind that the effect of technology does not provide a measurement for how advanced that technology is. If going at speed X means level 7 technology, you're missing a whole lot of important data or technological improvements such as fuel efficiency, safety, comfort, and so on.
Case in point, Necrons going FTL without entering the Warp may actually be a sign of incredible technology over human/Eldar warp travel (although we know that Eldar Webway travel is cozy to a degree Necrons can't dream of) since it may actually be significantly easier to achieve FTL by going through the warp.

Thus, Necrons are clearly a head and shoulder above Eldar, even if Eldar have nifty tech the Necrons can't replicate.
Eldar are clearly a head and shoulder above everyone else, even if their tech produces the same level of impact it's actually cleaner, easier to produce, more comfortable, etc etc.
Tau are clearly slightly ahead of the Imperium, even though they don't have the incredible relics, because a functioning relic doesn't mean the Imperiums technology improves it just means that they've got access to someone else's tech.
The Orks and Daemons clearly doesn't belong in the list because they don't use technology at all, since at best they simply use methodology.
Tyranids, on the other hand, make extensive use of biological technology, and while a lot of it is simply down to a (designed?) rapid adaptive evolution, there is a large decree of applied adaptation of genetic material within the hive fleets. Where are they in the tree? On a different branch, imo.

I like this view, but don't forget that easy of manufacture plays apart in this and while leman russes are not more technology advanced than hammerheads, but there are a hell of a lot more of them and the IOM is like the soviet union not the best tech but never underestimate them

I still say Orks are top tier in very specific circumstances

This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

 Psienesis wrote:
This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

Ok your a big tau fan i got it. look i'm getting tried of fighting this argument. not that i am giving in its just annoying to have to fight a general opinion that has been taken as fact in both the tau and the IOM. people forget that GW is a company and has a habit of steam rolling the IOM to make other races look better same with tyranids and orks and the CSM have it even worse for the crappy IOM beats them to give the crappy IOM a some what better image. I doubt that i have changed anyones' opinion as no one has changed mine i just don't understand this IOM hate.

 Gunhead1 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
This isn't an argument of scale. It's a 1:1 comparison. That the Imperium has a boatload more crappy tanks than the Tau have super-tanks does not make the Leman Russ a better tank than the Hammerhead.

UM geneseed is the "most stable" of the geneseed available to the Imperium. When you end up with freaks like the Black Dragons or the Flesh-Tearers... that's not saying much. They're also only responsible for 60% of the current Chapters, so it would seem that geneseed stability is basically a cointoss.

A lot of the bio-tech a SM is equipped with is also situational. While the second heart, third lung and more-efficient blood supply is good for anyone involved in extreme physical activity.... how often do you need to eat a guy's brain to learn tactical data? How often do you need to spit acid?

Ok your a big tau fan i got it. look i'm getting tried of fighting this argument. not that i am giving in its just annoying to have to fight a general opinion that has been taken as fact in both the tau and the IOM. people forget that GW is a company and has a habit of steam rolling the IOM to make other races look better same with tyranids and orks and the CSM have it even worse for the crappy IOM beats them to give the crappy IOM a some what better image. I doubt that i have changed anyones' opinion as no one has changed mine i just don't understand this IOM hate.

I don't think Psienesis can be classified as a Tau fanboy. Nor do I think that any of the Tau supporters would say the Tau could 'steam roll the IoM'. If the IoM could bring it's full weight to bear (and that doesn't just mean just the Black Templars) they could effectively deal with the Tau. However, they cannot do this and won't do this. As a result, superior manufacturing and front line tech enables the Tau to compete vs the mainstream inferior but far more numerous IoM.

The Tau are generally going to win in many of their engagements because the Imperium won't commit the resources needed to deal with such a threat when you have larger Orc, Necron, Tyranid, and Chaos problems to handle. The Tau are thus a big fish in their small pond. They aren't going to be universe beaters for a long time, if ever. What they do represent is a credible small scale threat that the Imperium cannot effectively defeat without pouring bodies at it. The Ethereals know this, and thus are very controlled in how they probe Imperial Space for new worlds. They don't expand as fast as they could, because they know it would promote a response of sufficient force that they couldn't stop it, at least not without grievous loss of life and planets that would see them on a perpetual defensive which is a loosing game.