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I think Matt1785 has it correct as well
to follow up on Warpsolution, I do get the reference, but I don't think there's anything like "interrupts" in WHFB
The more simple and gentlemanly way to do things would be
"I am not going to cast anything because that RiP is fine for me, so I'm going to end my magic phase right away."
"Wait, I want to dispell that RiP!"
"Sure, no worries, I will try to re-cast it afterwards"
No need for conflict here

TanKoL wrote:
I think Matt1785 has it correct as well
to follow up on Warpsolution, I do get the reference, but I don't think there's anything like "interrupts" in WHFB
The more simple and gentlemanly way to do things would be
"I am not going to cast anything because that RiP is fine for me, so I'm going to end my magic phase right away."
"Wait, I want to dispell that RiP!"
"Sure, no worries, I will try to re-cast it afterwards"
No need for conflict here

This is exactly how I heard it in my mind while reading the first post.

I guess that becomes the crux of the matter.

Who gets the last word?

Why couldn't he say.." alright, fine, youv'e dispelled my spell. Now I'm going to recast it since the conditions on the board have changed since I chose to end the phase."

@spellbound, appologies if i recalled incorrectly, I know it triggers fine with thunderstomp allowing the rolls for regaining wounds.

the last word is always with the player whose turn it is as this is the default opperations.

the inititive is with the dispeller as he has a pass to dispel at any point in the magic phase as an interupt of sorts. this in no way prevents the player whose turn it is from re-casting it if able to do so legally.

as stated, there are only 3 ways for the phase to actually end, unless they are all met the phase doesn't end, and when it does the chance for dispeling goes with it.

No, I don't think it works like that. If a caster throws some dice at a spell, miscasts, and loses PD from his pool, he may end up with 0 dice and the magic phase doesn't suddenly lol-end with the opponent unable to dispel the RIP that was in play. Or the wizard dies and that's his last one.

We can only do one operation at a time and if the above actions happened, the dispelling player would have to wave around his arms and try and interrupt it so he could use his dispel dice and get rid of the RIP before the phase was ended prematurely. It shouldn't be like the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. It says "at any point" he may dispel. That's indistinct enough that you could say 1 millisecond before the phase is about to end because the controlling player's last wizard blew up, the dispeller can calmly ask to attempt to remove the RIP.

He wasn't JUST insinuating that he was going to recast his RIP. He had like 11 or 12 dice. If I removed his RIP he was going to recast it AND go to town on me with his entire spell arsenal. He was trying to make me burn my dice, and if I wasn't going to, he wasn't going to try to use any dice and risk not getting that spell off again or losing that spell (he wanted the -2 strength nerf that was on me to stay).

But there's nothing in the world saying he can't propose that to you. If you choose not to listen and say "do your turn" that's also your right. Just like he can say, I won't snipe your general if you don't snipe mine. That's not in the rules. And either of you could break it. There's all kinds of house rules like that, however.

I remember in some euro history class where the soldiers would all line up facing each other and then take turns shooting. And one side asked the other, you all shoot first, and they responded, we NEVER shoot first. I mean, that sounds like a lot of bull, but the point was they wanted the other side to be standing and reloading when they got their volley off.

It's as insidious as you make it. You didn't have to do anything. But it sounds like you got off really well. If you wanted to dispel, then dispel. And eat 12 dice of magic.

I remember in some euro history class where the soldiers would all line up facing each other and then take turns shooting. And one side asked the other, you all shoot first, and they responded, we NEVER shoot first. I mean, that sounds like a lot of bull, but the point was they wanted the other side to be standing and reloading when they got their volley off.

It's actually a common misconception due to a sentence being wrongly written down
it was recorded as "Messieurs les Anglais, tirez les premiers" instead of "Messieurs, les Anglais, tirez les premiers"
the change of the punctuation changes it from
"English gentlemen, shoot first"
to
"Gentlemen, the English, shoot first"
As the red coats were renowned for their deadly volley fire, the French lines wanted to be the first to shoot to try and disorganize the Englishmen before they could wreak havoc

Its all perfectly legal guys. You can cast, finish and change your mind, but it is a two player game and if you think your opponent isnt keeping to the spirit of the game or is being a jerk, dont play em. This is why I dont go to a lot of tourney. I want to know what kind of people I'm going to play.
I can win games without rules lawyering, being sneaky or tricking my opponent about how I think the rules work. My games usually consist of me telling you exactly how I'm going to beat you and then doing it.

I still don't see the problem.
"Do you want to dispel? I will cast spells if you do"
A) You dispel. He then casts.
B) You dispel. He doesn't cast.
C) You don't dispel. He ends the phase.
D) You don't dispel. He casts anyway.

These are the only options. He has said that he will do A or C. If he is saying that the phase will end unless you choose to dispel, it is totally up to you. If you dispel and he then casts, you knew he was going to and chose that.
If you decide not to and then he tries to cast anyway, then that IS unsporting, but that doesn't seem to be what you are talking about.

But what's stopping the dispelling player from doing the same thing? "I won't cast unless you dispel" to "I'll dispel unless you cast"

I'm still hung up on "at any point during the magic phase". That sounds like it has special rights, and can be done out of synch of the usual order. I.E., after he's declared the end of his phase, but before the phase actually ends.

I mean, if my opponent said "that's the end of my movement phase", and then moved a unit, I'd be a little confused as to what they were doing.

Warpsolution wrote:
I'm still hung up on "at any point during the magic phase". That sounds like it has special rights, and can be done out of synch of the usual order. I.E., after he's declared the end of his phase, but before the phase actually ends.

He can. But by doing so it goes back to the dispel sub-phase and then the controlling player can cast again if he still has dice/spells/wizards.

So for those that say he can say he's done, then still cast..
How do we know when the phase actually ends?
If the dispelling player is going to wait and save his dice to dispel the RIP spell because every other spell is considered a minor risk or threat so you plan to wait until he is done casting..what do you do?
Without some sort of order you just stand staring at each other.
MUST the casting player cast all available spells?

The dispelling player gets the final action of the magic phase. It also follows the order of the magic phase as well. Pg 29
1. Roll for winds magic
2. Cast
3. Dispel
4. Spell resolution
5. Next Spell -Repeat steps 2 through 4 until the casting player cannot cast, Or no longer wishes to cast, any more spells.

Following 2 through 4..
Casting player chooses not to cast anymore spells there fore he passes on step 2 and does not get the option to go to step 5 again.
Step 3-He could dispel (or do at any other time) and this could be when dispelling player dispels. (or any other time)
step 4-he did not cast so there is no more resolution.
There is no step 5. He gave that up in accordance with step 5 his prior cycle.

that would be fine if it were not for the 3 steps that define the end of a magic phase as I have stated in this thread.

by dispelling the RIP spell, which by default you cannot if it was already cast this turn and in which case you have failed/lost the chance to stop it, you will be giving the casting player a useful spell to cast if he is able to do so.

regardless of which way you want to throw it, in the example where you want to stop a RIP you just need to dispell it and get it over with, you can wait but if your opponent has said they wont be casting anything this turn unless you dispell then the phase will either end there and then or you dispell. if he has more than one spell you can say lets see what happens but if he says he doesn't want to cast then you either keep the RIP spell up and agree to end the phase or you dispell and see what happens

The only issue with this is how he proposed it. He has every right to say that he has no spells to cast that turn except for the remains in play spell that is currently active, He was simply saying that he is not going to throw any dice except at the RIP spell that is already active, This is within his rights, Both RAW, and RAI, He can cast any spell that he has not already cast at any point in the phase, And at the start of the phase he had nothing to cast. Should you then decide to dis-spell a spell that he has not cast he can cast it again afterward, The other option he has is to end the spell and cast it again. Either way he has done nothing wrong, Now maybe it was how he said it, or maybe it was taken out of context. but I see nothing wrong with what he did. He has every right to say I am skipping this cast, you can chose to dis spell if you wish, but then I will have dice left to cast it again. As long as he has dice and has not started shooting, he can change his mind and cast any spell he has access to.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
that would be fine if it were not for the 3 steps that define the end of a magic phase as I have stated in this thread.

by dispelling the RIP spell, which by default you cannot if it was already cast this turn and in which case you have failed/lost the chance to stop it, you will be giving the casting player a useful spell to cast if he is able to do so.

regardless of which way you want to throw it, in the example where you want to stop a RIP you just need to dispell it and get it over with, you can wait but if your opponent has said they wont be casting anything this turn unless you dispell then the phase will either end there and then or you dispell. if he has more than one spell you can say lets see what happens but if he says he doesn't want to cast then you either keep the RIP spell up and agree to end the phase or you dispell and see what happens

Re-read the 3 reasons that it can end.
It does not require all 3 to occur. The casting player could roll 12 on winds of magic and say he does not want to cast anything, therefore ending the phase. The dispel player could dispel anything he wants to at that point.
The phase has an order..1-5
The order is required to proceed from a start to finish of the phase.
I ask again..if he says he will cast if I dispel and I say I will only dispel when you are done casting, how long do you stand there?
There must be an order for the game to progress.
If his rip spell is that important then he should be following process and turning it off and recasting the spell.
You don't get to go back because you don't like the results.

I have read them, and again the point still stands that the casting player decides when the phase will end, if he says 'I'm going to end my phase' and you say that your going to dispel, he will then get the chance to change his mind as you have changed the state at which he wished to end it.

the player whose turn it is decides the operations and decides when to end the phase unless he is forced to end it by and effect or conditions are met that automatically end it.

you can't have your cake and eat it when it is not your turn, this is why usually you would dispel during your own magic phase, having decided to wait you will have to make the choice of either let him keep his RIP spell up and end the magic phase, or dispel it and let him try to cast it again.

to answer your question what I would do given this situation I would ask why your deciding to be awkward over this, and call over a TO in tournament or just end the game there and let you win since in non tournaments I play for the giggle of it. the rules allow a quazzy state of you go I go, but the rules also include a spirit of the game, and the spirit of the dispelling a RIP spell is not to cause a Mexican standoff, in truth I think it could have been worded better but you can't change what is written.

if the phase is to end then both the power pool and dispel pool empty simultatiously and/or cease to exist, if you interrupt the player when he intends to empty those pools he is entitled to re-asses. note that the magic phase is an ever changing state and trying to be ridged to a 5 step system when there is an operation outside of that 5 step system will re-set the system back to square one if the system is being bypassed.

think of it this way, I have the initiative chip as it is my turn.

I can only cast spells in my turn, I cast a spell, I pass the chip to you so you may try to dispel that spell, if you succeed the chip is passed back to me and I start again, if I fail, I check to see if the end condition for the phase is triggered (all casters concentration broken) if this is not true I may carry on the phase, if I cast another spell, I pass the chip to you and you may dispel it, if you fail you pass the chip back to me and I resolve the spell effect.

now to make the matter more of a headache at any point you may take the chip off me to dispel a previously cast spell, there is nothing I can do about it other than watch so you resolve your dispel and pass me back the chip to carry on where I left off if I was casting or back at square one if I was currently not doing anything.

the problem with your 5 step argument is there is no permission in the dispel section that on a success to go back to step 2 or carry onto step 5. the logical argument here is that the act of dispelling will bring you to step 2, thereby carrying onto step 5, regardless of what was happening before hand, or in the case that you decided to dispel it mid-cast carry on from where you left off.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
I have read them, and again the point still stands that the casting player decides when the phase will end, if he says 'I'm going to end my phase' and you say that your going to dispel, he will then get the chance to change his mind as you have changed the state at which he wished to end it.

Saying that you are going to do something and then change based on the response is not allowed. It's like charging a unit and then he says he will run away and then saying oh never mind I don't want to charge.

the player whose turn it is decides the operations and decides when to end the phase unless he is forced to end it by and effect or conditions are met that automatically end it.

He did decide the operation. He chose to end it based on his information. 1 of the 3 end phase options that are given. (5. Next Spell -Repeat steps 2 through 4 until the casting player cannot cast, or no longer wishes to cast, any more spells.

you can't have your cake and eat it when it is not your turn, this is why usually you would dispel during your own magic phase, having decided to wait you will have to make the choice of either let him keep his RIP spell up and end the magic phase, or dispel it and let him try to cast it again.

You are already hindered by the division of dice in the magic phase, why should you be doubly penalized? Potentially attempting to dispel the same spell 3 times. 1 at first cast and 2 times in the following magic phase.

to answer your question what I would do given this situation I would ask why your deciding to be awkward over this, and call over a TO in tournament or just end the game there and let you win since in non tournaments I play for the giggle of it. the rules allow a quazzy state of you go I go, but the rules also include a spirit of the game, and the spirit of the dispelling a RIP spell is not to cause a Mexican standoff, in truth I think it could have been worded better but you can't change what is written.

So you believe my stance would be awkward? You don't think that I am looking at it as a you go I go? I'm waiting for you to go.

if the phase is to end then both the power pool and dispel pool empty simultatiously and/or cease to exist, if you interrupt the player when he intends to empty those pools he is entitled to re-asses. note that the magic phase is an ever changing state and trying to be ridged to a 5 step system when there is an operation outside of that 5 step system will re-set the system back to square one if the system is being bypassed.

Running out of dice is a possible end but not a requirement. If the caster says I am done with all my dice he effectively discards them. The dispeller still has his dice. Do you think there is a 5 step system just in case? To use as a rough guideline? Nothing has been bypassed. The caster chose to finish. It's like saying I only want to charge your unit if you will not run away.

think of it this way, I have the initiative chip as it is my turn.

Yep, you had your chip. You gave it away and said you don't want it anymore, why should you get it back?

I can only cast spells in my turn, I cast a spell, I pass the chip to you so you may try to dispel that spell, if you succeed the chip is passed back to me and I start again, if I fail, I check to see if the end condition for the phase is triggered (all casters concentration broken) if this is not true I may carry on the phase, if I cast another spell, I pass the chip to you and you may dispel it, if you fail you pass the chip back to me and I resolve the spell effect.

The chip does not go back to you until after spell resolution, if you want it. You have the initiative to take it back. If you have no dice, have no spells, have no casting wizards or pass, you are done.

the problem with your 5 step argument is there is no permission in the dispel section that on a success to go back to step 2 or carry onto step 5. the logical argument here is that the act of dispelling will bring you to step 2, thereby carrying onto step 5, regardless of what was happening before hand, or in the case that you decided to dispel it mid-cast carry on from where you left off.

I don't understand your sentences here. Maybe this is why there is confusion. It appears that you are reading too much into the 'dispel at any time' line.
It makes no sense that you are casting a fireball, then the dispeller suddenly says...'wait' I'll dispel your flamecage'
It is not the dispel that takes determines 2-4.
The act of dispelling or attempting will take you to step 4 or pass it if the dispel was successful. Then you go to step 5. That is the step that decides whether or not you repeat 2-4.

I guess I don't understand why this is a big deal?

A) If you say 'nope, I'm not going to dispel - end your phase' and he changes his mind, then you change yours
B) If you are worried about him wailing on you with magic, isn't that going to happen anyway? Isn't he going to cast a bunch of spells and you're still going to hold the dice to dispel the RIP? If you are willing to pounce on a crappy spell cast on a 6, then your priorities don't match the context of your OP.
C) Without the full context, it just reads like someone who didn't want to risk a miscast (no matter how slim) and was saying 'I'm only interested in that RiP, you can dispel it [with an implicit recast] or we are done.'

You can't very well force him to one dice spells and risk losing concentration (and thus his options) or 2+ dice spells and risk blowing the mage away. This is a tournament after all...

I'll try to clarify without quoting otherwise it'll end up becomming a huge quote fest.

the charge phase it very diffrent to magic phase and actually does have rules permitting you to change things based on the reaction of the opponent (changing the target of a charge for example).

your penalised because your on the defencive this round, if you decided to not remove the RIP when you had the advantage then its a tactical error on your part and the casting player shouldn't be penalised for it.

yes he elected to end based on the information at the time, you have changed the state of that information prompting a reassesment, the pools will empty at the same time, you cannot dispel withough dispel dice and he cannot cast without power, the two pools are mutually linked by the phase, they are permitted to be empty thorugh use, but premature ending will empty them simultainusly.

I get the chip back becasue I need it to resolve my spell, phase and/or effect. keep in mind without the chip I cannot end the phase.

'passing' is not an ending of the phase, you're adding that as you 'pass' when you have no useful spells to cast, by dispelling you render that fact false re-rolling the phase back to me being able to cast on the presumtion that the other cirtera have not been met.

to try to clarify this point, I have one spell, its my RIP spell, it casts on a 7, my wizard has not cast, I have 7 dice in my power pool, and my RIP spell is the only spell I know.

power pool dice are there so that condition is not met, concentration is not broken so that condition is not met, I have no useful spells to cast, as it is already in play, so this contion is met, so I move to end the phase.

you decide to dispel my RIP spell and suceed, I now have a useful spell to cast, meaning the phase does not end as I can now cast it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
not really, I could very well go off to dispel flamecage during a fireballs casting sequence as I'm permitted to do so, there are a number of tactical advantages to doing so when multiple spells are in the mix, the problem being that the given example in the OP is looking to see what happens with the casting of other spells first, he is within his right to do so, but if the caster is willing to end the phase if his RIP spell stays (ergo no intent to cast other spells other than his RIP spell) then in this instance you would need to decide if you actually wanted to dispel it.

you have a limited pool of dice when on the defence, the magic phase is designed to give the offence the advantage as you will recieve the same advantage in the following turn, the phase I write off in this game is the shooting phase mostly as most battles are resolved in combat and magic can make a huge diffrence there, where shooting (generally) can have little impact (exceptions exist I am aware)

.......E
......L..H
...O......IL
M...........L

Niteware wrote:
.......E
......L..H
...O......IL
M...........L

Mountain out of a molehill

Theres also a more elegant way to represent it, without the full stops as "spacers" - using the code tags

yeah, thought there would be - what are the tags for it?

[ code ]