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None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

What on the list is worth 0 points?

You may not find value in its inclusion but that is not the same as saying it is worth zero points.

There are upgrades in plenty of books that no one runs, but would need to pay points for if they wanted to.

For instance in this edition I don't feel that the ability to carry a dread is usually worth it...but that does not mean it would be free were it a vehicle upgrade.

Same with ceramite plating, while I agree I might not pay for it given the option, it is still something that would certainly cost points (probably more than 10 were it an upgrade).

SO in reality they are all worth points...but your contention is the same as mine, that they don't add value and you would not pay for them given the choice.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

exactly

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12.

Yes, but the Land Raider isn't hit only on 6's by the vast majority of weapons, making the Stormraven much more difficult to destroy than a Land Raider in most instances, especially as the Land Raider can still be assaulted and destroyed by meltabombs, chainfists, MC's, etc while the Stromraven cannot (unless in hover mode).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

You had me up to , I don't want PotMS . It is one of the best rules in the entire game , right up there with stuff like ATKNF and FnP.

Well except that the SR can be hurt by S6+ weapons and the Landraider requires S8+ (or appropriate special rules).

Both have advantages and disadvantages

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12.

Yes, but the Land Raider isn't hit only on 6's by the vast majority of weapons, making the Stormraven much more difficult to destroy than a Land Raider in most instances, especially as the Land Raider can still be assaulted and destroyed by meltabombs, chainfists, MC's, etc while the Stromraven cannot (unless in hover mode).

In my experience, the SR is easier to kill because it can be HPed out by Eldar S6/7 and Tau S7.

Makumba wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

You had me up to , I don't want PotMS . It is one of the best rules in the entire game , right up there with stuff like ATKNF and FnP.

Not really as much for a flyer due to limited sight lines, and movement restrictions. It is still good, and you might buy it were it an upgrade, but frequently you are better off focus firing what you shoot at.

Makumba wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

You had me up to , I don't want PotMS . It is one of the best rules in the entire game , right up there with stuff like ATKNF and FnP.

ATSKNF has really reduced utility in 6th, as I find my men die in place rather than mucking around with morale. Additionally, I often find myself WANTING to be swept in CC, so I can shoot more. PotMS on a flier that can already shoot 4 weapons is not that hot. If the PotMS could independently select skyfire, I would agree. But as it is, its crap.


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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
None of it is worth 0 points in reality. The problem is, I don't want melta immunity, but I have to pay for it. I don't need to transport dreads, but I have to pay for it. I won't fire at separate targets, but I have to pay for PotMS. That's the point.

There's the concept of "we must charge for X ability" and then there's "this ability truly provides utility that's useful in a real situation.". I guess this post sums it up. But its still very, very frustrating.

i think it's fairly costed. There are a lot of armies out there that still struggle to deal with av12 flyers, and there's a lot of nasty things that can assault out of it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12.

Yes, but the Land Raider isn't hit only on 6's by the vast majority of weapons, making the Stormraven much more difficult to destroy than a Land Raider in most instances, especially as the Land Raider can still be assaulted and destroyed by meltabombs, chainfists, MC's, etc while the Stromraven cannot (unless in hover mode).

In my experience, the SR is easier to kill because it can be HPed out by Eldar S6/7 and Tau S7.

eldar have Lances, meltas, and wraithweapons galore for AV14 engagement, while Tau have extended range DS'ing meltas and S10 AP1 railguns (plus markerlights to make all of these weapons better) to deal with AV14 much more easily.

I'm not saying it's impossible to kill a Stormraven, and Tau may often have Skyfire broadsides to engage them with greater ease, but neither of these armies should have any harder time dealing with a Land Raider.

xruslanx wrote:
i think it's fairly costed. There are a lot of armies out there that still struggle to deal with av12 flyers, and there's a lot of nasty things that can assault out of it.

I'm still looking for those armies I've been shot down by everything from lootas to some kind of daemon bolt thing.


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 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12.

Yes, but the Land Raider isn't hit only on 6's by the vast majority of weapons, making the Stormraven much more difficult to destroy than a Land Raider in most instances, especially as the Land Raider can still be assaulted and destroyed by meltabombs, chainfists, MC's, etc while the Stromraven cannot (unless in hover mode).

In my experience, the SR is easier to kill because it can be HPed out by Eldar S6/7 and Tau S7.

eldar have Lances, meltas, and wraithweapons galore for AV14 engagement, while Tau have extended range DS'ing meltas and S10 AP1 railguns (plus markerlights to make all of these weapons better) to deal with AV14 much more easily.

I'm not saying it's impossible to kill a Stormraven, and Tau may often have Skyfire broadsides to engage them with greater ease, but neither of these armies should have any harder time dealing with a Land Raider.

Lots of Tau are leaving the S10 and meltas at home to spam more S7.

Martel732 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
One thing about the change from fast skimmers to flyers is the requirement to start in reserves. This makes flying transports much worse for assault troops. So the LRC is still a much better battle-taxi then the SR.

Overall I think the raven is well priced. While it does pale in comparison with the legacy 5th ed flyers, that is a problem with them, not the SR. But from an internal codex balance standpoint, I think it fits in well with the rest of the book.

Unfortunately, the problem with legacy fliers is that they are still legal and they are the competition for the SR. They might be "the problem" but that doesn't help anyone on the table top. Yes, the SR pricing makes sense internally, but that's of limited value.

I guess that's the difference between being priced correctly, and being priced competitively. If you want to get the most out of your lists, you are going to gravitate towards the underpriced/overpowered units. And if you want to compare things in that light, the "best in show" are your benchmarks. Why would you take anything but the very best?

When talking about balance, I prefer to ignore the outliers, and focus on the average unit. If everything keeps getting adjusted to match the upper tier, you get codex creep, which is not good for the overall health of the game IMHO. Sometimes it better to nerf the top dogs then to buff everyone else to their level.

But you are absolutely right. We have the rules/codexes we have. And while things like the vendetta are still what they are, they skew what is normal. So any discussion about balance needs to keep them in mind, particularly in a competitive environment.

Not that I have to like it…

I think the Storm Raven is well costed, just the prevalence of Scythes, Helldrakes and Vendettas that are far more cost effecient has blunted the use of the Storm Raven.

If the others were costed better, the overall flyer meta would be useful and add more to the game than it currently does.

I just don't get why it has troop careing ability as no one use that at must players i have seen just use them as flying tanks our suide units

The Stormraven is a solid choice, as it is one of the better flyers out there. Since I'm going Grey Knights and it's only a 25 point upgrade, I will be able to give mine psybolt ammunition, which makes it even more nasty against anything from infantry to Leman Russ Battle Tanks. 4x S7, Rending shots from the Assault Cannon, 6x to12x S5 shots from the Hurricane Bolters, and a Multi-Melta for the occasional tank sniping is pretty awesome to say the least.

I would be happy if it costed 200 pts with the sponson bolter upgrade..

zilka86 wrote:
I just don't get why it has troop careing ability as no one use that at must players i have seen just use them as flying tanks our suide units

I've seen plenty throw dreadnoughts in them to assault with.

Doesn't mean it's good. Which it isn't.


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spartiatis wrote:
I would be happy if it costed 200 pts with the sponson bolter upgrade..

This seems more reasonable to me. Get it below 75 pt/HP.

 Sir Arun wrote:
The problem is that both the Vendetta and Night Scythe had their points fixed when their codices were written, and that is for 5th edition when they were Fast Skimmers.

So it is unfair to compare these vehicles to the newest 6th edition Flyers (Storm Talon, Sunshark Bomber, Razorshark Strike Fighter, Crimson Hunter, Hemlock Wraith Fighter etc.)

generally those two fliers are also considered, at least where I play to be under costed

I'm comparing the Stormraven to what I have to play against. I don't play against these other fliers. I play against Vendettas, Helldrakes, and Night Scythes. I understand that from one perspective, the SR seems about right, but in practice, its overcosted. There is no way around this.

Breng77 wrote:

For those that say the Vendetta will get a big jump in points I will not that the Valkyrie stayed the same points in Codex:Inquisition as it is in the current IG book.

The Valkyrie isn't the issue though, for its base price is basically a flying Chimera - it doesn't punch that hard unless you give it MRP etc which pushes its cost up to near Vendetta level. The issue is that for the same kind of points cost as the MRP Valk you can get a Vendetta which has 3 T/L Lascannons which is arguably a more powerful weapon loadout than the Storm Raven (less flexible, but none of it is one shot only and the range gives 3 Las an advantage over a MM and an Assault Cannon). The balance between them (and indeed the rest of the IG FA options) are terrible, nothing in the IG codex offers the same kind of reliable firepower as a Vendetta with all the other bonuses thrown in. I'm hoping that the Valkyrie stays around as the main flying transport option and the Vendetta gets pushed into the fire support role it supposably fills in the fluff (bridging the gap between Valks and Vultures/other bigger stuff) - it either needs a points bump up to 160-180pts (they are easily as good as Crimson Hunters - comparable weapons, +2AV balances out with Vector Dancer, but the Hunter has no transport capacity) or a reduced transport capacity - most other vehicles which use the same chassis lose transport capacity when they are mounting bigger weapons (particularly Lascannons) i.e Razorbacks. It would also be interesting to see them pushed into Heavy support (unless Valks can be dedicated for Vets) - its a much more contested slot but would also allow for proper Air Cav lists.

Imo the SR is fairly well costed, it fills the same role as a standard Land Raider - expensive and hard to put down, but because it is a generalist it often ends up not using all its abilities in a single game. The main issue I have with them is that all the varients of the SR are costed more or less the same, when they clearly aren't equal - the GK Raven is far superior to the nilla Marine one as Mindstrikes are hugely powerful (even without the big reliance on psychic buffs in 6th they would be amazing) and Psybolt Hurricanes give you 4 'primary' weapon systems (as opposed to 2 Primary and 6 secondary, basic Hurricanes are nice but not overly scary) and the BA one is obviously better than the nilla one as well due to the Missiles.

Except the nilla one can have IWND while all the other variants cannot.

LC/MM C:SM Stormravens IMO is priced almost perfectly. If they used it as the measuring stick to price everything else then I would be happy. The only problem with stormravens is every other loadout except for the hurrican bolter upgrade is overpriced except in the case of GK where psyammo makes the AC worthwhile.

The crimson hunter BTW is pretty overpriced. It has a worse chance of killing a stormraven even after the exarch upgrades than a stormraven has of killing it...and it is only good for AA whereas the stormraven is good for a variety of tasks. Not to mention you can take a crimson hunter out with random small arms fire if you have nothing better to do.

The vendetta could definitely use a point increase. Though honestly the helldrake and nightscythes are by far and away the worst offenders as those two can actually win games; one by killing troops the other is the best troop mobility option in the game.

I will say that ironically a Storm Raven is probably the scariest unit in the entire game to a Tzeentch or Nurgle Flying Circus. (not Slaanesh though)

My DE laugh at any armor on the table and cry about most flyers. Yeah, they can be brought down with a flurry of darklight weapons, but then the attached poison weapons are very much wasted.

Usually the only flyer defense I have is my own flier. Its rather turns into who shoots whom first and how many were brough, usually more than I did.

As such I find the SR pointed about right. It can bring a lot of hurt, but I think no more than what its current points are.

At $82.50, I'd say it was overcosted. OH you mean in points... lol

While costing more than other flyers out there, I still think it's faily costed due to its choice of weapons and utility.

Against a flyer spam list, with POTMS it can theorically take out 2 flyers in one turn, making back its points easily even if it gets shot down next turn.

That's extremely theoretically. Rarely happens.

Martel732 wrote:
The Stormraven is actually overcosted. Significantly. AV 14 is far more study than AV 12. In fact, AV 12 HP 3 is quite fragile for a 200 point vehicle. The Stormraven, functionally, should be priced more like a Vendetta. Wherever that thing ends up.

The ONLY thing making the Stormraven viable is MSU raven spam and overloading your opponent's AA. That doesn't mean the individual Stormraven is a good buy. Because its not. It actually kinda sucks.

AV14 is certainly more sturdy than 12, that's for certain.

Not when said vehicles ignores 1/6 of shots though.

Stormraven is highly mobile, GK ravens are effective vs some of the most powerful models in 6th. High firepower really makes this a powerful model, especially considering you can shoot OTHER fliers at full BS.

I think landraiders are really overcosted and I would wager that most armies would benefit from a raven more than an LR.

I think they should drop LR costs significantly but limit the # an army can have to two.

Also Stormravens appear in a ton of tournament armies, how can they be overcosted?

Because it's what marines have for a flier.