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Wow some great feedback here thanks all.

IG is blessed with great artillery which is what caught my eye when choosing the army. However only the Colossus has ignore cover. I guess having a unit that can close fast and put some ignore cover hurt on cover save+gone to ground objective holding troops is one area where GW saw the Hell Hound and Bane Wolf going into battle.

I do wonder if these tanks will get changed a little in the new codex. If so I'd hope both to get a slight points reduction and the bane wolf to get some extra range.

Personally it really really depends who you are playing, what kind of map you are playing, etc, etc.

I've used my 1 hellhound a couple of times and yes it is expensive in points, but so far it has performed extremetly well.

Against necron players who field warriors alot it is an absolute killer for example. Warrior can be a pain in the ass in large groups and the fact that you can vaporize droves of them is just great!

Tank shocking with a flame tank is one of those tactics that I use with my immolators all the time. For some reason it shocks people when I tank shock. I don't think they realize that it clusters their troops for better torching.

On a side note, you'd be surprised just how many eldar and tau i've tank shocked off the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I guess it is a bit different with immolators though. they're not 'fast' so cannot burn what they shock (unless I got the rules wrong). It works for me mostly because I have so many flamer templates.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I personally think the Hellhound and its variants cost too much for what they do, but despite this I find myself warming up to it and can't help but wonder if it's a better fit than the Leman Russ for mechanized guard. It's faster, saturates AV12, throwing the flamer template will probably net you more kills than the pie plate Russes, and is a great way to cover up the anti-infantry weaknesses from all those plasma and melta guns you're packing in your vet squads.

This. In my experience guard needs more anti horde elements in 6th then 5th. Mech vets are awesome anti Mech and MEQ but are lacking in crowd control. Vendettas are nice but I find less things needs to be hit with three las canons . I still take a pair for AA but that other slot is usually going to be a hellhound squadron.

I have almost always used a hellhound in my list against Necrons as I am not low enough to use flyers yet (actually I don't have flyers **cough, cough**), but the tank has basically never failed me yet. It's long range attack and being a fast tank means I can remove an entire FOC slot's worth of scarabs in a single blast, but if one survives there's still the multimelta that I always tack on.

Assuming it survives, which is fairly common, my hellhound gains the versatility of removing squads of warriors camped in ruins or taking on a minor AT role to assist Lascannons, melta vets and the like against those barges and arks. Even if it is wrecked, at least it whittled down and distracted the scarabs from my Leman Russes in the back lines.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Gotcha, thanks for the help! MM just seems like it would just add points to an already overcosted tank that will only help in limited situations. The heavy flamer is risky as it means you need to get really close to your opponent but boy would it be fun to just tank shock into an opponent and just shoot flame everywhere! The heavy bolter just makes sense because it allows you to keep the distance between your opponent and you.

You take the MM because it makes the Hellhound a dual-role unit. Sometimes you won't have any good flamer targets so it's nice to be able to threaten vehicles instead of having your precious fast attack slot wasted on a useless paperweight.

It's pretty rare that I see you advocating for multi-role units, Peregrine. More than once, I've seen you argue against Ailaros's beloved Hull-LC/Sponson-MM Punishers. The logic seemed sound at the time, so this seems a bit out of character.

What's the difference, here? Is the opportunity cost for the multi-melta just that much lower? Is the range on the hull-flamer simply too unworkable for a Hellhound?

I wouldn't field either unit, but I'd like to hear your thought process.

Grey knight players can justify spending 235pts to get a shunting Dreadknight its only reanged weapon is basicly the same as the Hellhound. I often see people waist their dreadknight but putting them up way to close. Its a torrent weapon so you can effectivly sit 12" back and still flame with a lot of good angles. Since the Hellhound is a fast vehicle it can move 12" & still shoot which gives you an effective range of 24" in most cases you will be able to burn things up pretty good with that kind of threat bubble. Being a fast vehicle you can shoot 2 weapons after moving 12" as well so that hull weapon can be really useful. I would run with a Multi-Melta myself buts thats just personal preference.

Corollax wrote:
What's the difference, here? Is the opportunity cost for the multi-melta just that much lower?

This. The hull HB isn't really good at anything, and the hull HF is usually out of range. Upgrading to the hull MM sacrifices pretty much nothing in the primary role for a big gain in a secondary role.

And for the record, I love dual-role units. For example, the Vendetta is awesome because it's an AA unit that can also kill vehicles and deliver troops. What I hate is units like Ailaros' MM/LC Punishers, which can do several things but can't do any of them well compared to similar units with a more focused set of choices.

war wrote:
Tank shocking with a flame tank is one of those tactics that I use with my immolators all the time. For some reason it shocks people when I tank shock. I don't think they realize that it clusters their troops for better torching.

On a side note, you'd be surprised just how many eldar and tau i've tank shocked off the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, I guess it is a bit different with immolators though. they're not 'fast' so cannot burn what they shock (unless I got the rules wrong). It works for me mostly because I have so many flamer templates.

I never actually thought of doing this. I just re-read the rules, and apparently, you can shoot just fine after tank shocking, which means that you can fire two weapons after doing it with a Bane Wolf. For example If an enemy unit is 10" from you, you can tank shock 12", end your move on top of them, and get them to move out of the way the shortest way possible. If you placed your tank on one side of the unit, the unit gets bunched up on the other side of the tank. Since you have a turret, you can just turn it and get the best possible number of hits. You have to have a backup unit though, because that is going to leave your tank pretty close to enemy units.

 Peregrine wrote:
This. The hull HB isn't really good at anything, and the hull HF is usually out of range. Upgrading to the hull MM sacrifices pretty much nothing in the primary role for a big gain in a secondary role.

And for the record, I love dual-role units. For example, the Vendetta is awesome because it's an AA unit that can also kill vehicles and deliver troops. What I hate is units like Ailaros' MM/LC Punishers, which can do several things but can't do any of them well compared to similar units with a more focused set of choices.

Thanks for the clarification!

I've had banewolves be the "bane" of my bikers existence before. I understand they have limited range but with fast they can close in pretty fast and catch an unlucky unit or two in the open. They are designed to hurt every part of bike armies. Also, doesn't the screamerstar rely on a coversave to be what it is. I'm not entirely sure but if so then wounding on a 2+ seems like a pretty good way to take off a few of those guys. I have never ran into the star and don't play guard but seems like a pretty effective working, though the torrent flamer would be effective too in a different way

 dmthomas7 wrote:
Also, doesn't the screamerstar rely on a coversave to be what it is

Nope, it's a re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save.

ouch that's so much worse then I thought. . . why is that even an option in this game

 dmthomas7 wrote:
ouch that's so much worse then I thought. . . why is that even an option in this game

it's random chance. On a 3+, they get +2 to their invulnerable save, on a 1 or 2 they get -1.

For the torrent fire weapons, do you HAVE to extend the torrent out to the full 12" range or is it your choice how far it goes?

i had pretty good luck with a devil dog against a driago army i love it pesky land raider small template. two wound terminators poof. it is very situational but it is a helluva lot of fun. and it still get 2d6 armor pen at max distance. and slightly cheaper than a hell hound and if anything gets on you add a heavy flamer for roasting abilities. but it is depending on local meta and what not. but i love it works wonders for me. haven't tried out the hh or the banewolf. but i have been on the receiving end of a hh nasty surprise when you get nuked 12 inches away plus template...(that was the last time i ran non meched berserkers). i could see a bane wolf being useful but i don't like its range. the other to i think have more viability.

any way thats my two cents.

Your choice.

The only restriction is that the skinny end of the template has to be closer to your vehicle than the fat end

I run a Hellhound with MM every game.
The torrent flamer has a range of 12" and guess what else has a 12" sweetspot? the MM. What I usually do is I fire at a lower AV vehicle and bank the flame template off of the vehicle into enemy troops. Prefferably disembarked troops

I've gotten way more use out of the hull MM than the hull HF, every game. It's also the cheapest way to get a MM into the army, and being on a fast vehicle gives it 24" melta range effectively.

Well the hull MM has seem to win my decision whenever I plan to pick up 2 of these guys to experiment with lol.

 tankboy145 wrote:
Well the hull MM has seem to win my decision whenever I plan to pick up 2 of these guys to experiment with lol.

Sounds like a plan! However, I always recommend magnetising (unless the new Hellhound kit comes with both 'slot-into-place" hull weapons) for flexibility.

Best of luck!

DoW

 Gibblets wrote:
I run a Hellhound with MM every game.
The torrent flamer has a range of 12" and guess what else has a 12" sweetspot? the MM. What I usually do is I fire at a lower AV vehicle and bank the flame template off of the vehicle into enemy troops. Prefferably disembarked troops

That sounds like an excellent way to get around the normal problem of multi-role units (i.e. can't do both roles in the same turn). Nice!

Anyone else have experience against biker armies? i..Khan? Would you recommend Banewolf or Hellhound?

Turret weapons slot into place. Hull weapons are the same as the Chimera. Its a good kit to put together.

 Peregrine wrote:
The best way to use them is to sell them and buy Vendettas. Vendettas are almost always the better choice, so unless you're deliberately weakening your list to go easy on a newbie you should take them.

Can we PLEASE revoke his licence to internet?
I mean, did anyone EVER thought a reply like this was in any way useful?


Anyway
Banewolf-too point blank, hard to use. I would not recommend.
Devil Dog-a decent source of melta, useful against tanks and TeQ alike. not an A pick, but decent.
Hellhound-dash forward and EXTERMINATE cover hogging annoyances like pathfinders (both eldar and tau), sniper scouts (who kill your precious "blob hidden" units and such. will be targeted by armies who care, and by such requires backup.

Actually, now that I think about it, I never used a Devil-Dog since the "the entire blast marker counts as full strength" rule came into play in 6th. I couldn't count the number of times I got half strength melta shots on things that were utterly useless. Perhaps it might be more effective now and I've been writing it off unnecessarily?

DoW

You take a Devil Dog with multi-meltas.

 DogOfWar wrote:
Actually, now that I think about it, I never used a Devil-Dog since the "the entire blast marker counts as full strength" rule came into play in 6th. I couldn't count the number of times I got half strength melta shots on things that were utterly useless. Perhaps it might be more effective now and I've been writing it off unnecessarily?

DoW

this change to the blast rules certainly made demolishers a *lot* more effective vs vehicles, i assume it's the same with the devil dog. It makes it virtually impossible to miss a land raider, you have to scatter like 10 inches to completely miss the hull.

I used two hellhounds in a game I played last night, they were busy trying to bust my LR's and I used cover effectively. He had Marines in razorbacks and after popping the Razors I was melting entire squads of marine from a very safe distance.