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I was thinking of starting an IG army for Christmas, I have some SM models to use with them and a bunch of Tau that I haven't used yet. Anyway, I don't see many CC IG armies and I was wondering what I could do to make one. Starting with the Cadian Battleforce what would be best to get after that, and how should I equip them?

Hoo boy, be prepared to lose a lot but if I did it... I would either get yarrick or a Lord Commissar as your HQ. Stick him with a unit of 10 Ogryn.

For troops spam infantry squads as much as possible. Give the Sergeants power weapons and melta bombs. Id stick in a marine HQ unit to buff them. I believe you can give guard a 4++ with DA and thatll help some. Take flamers if you can to soften up targets. Hellhounds would work well with this sort of army.

Only way to run CC guard armies is by using blobs of 40-50 guardsmen with power axes and or melta bombs o the sergeants and then you can throw on special and heavy weapons however you like.

So if you are going with blobs you need maybe 3 more battle forces? but you are better of just buying 1-2 more command squads and 6 more boxes of infantry squads.

For your HQ I would suggest a a CCS or a lord commissar.

You still need a PCS per platoon though as well.

also with the new inquisition supplement I would suggest attaching an inquisitor with prescience to each blob.

To be honest though Guard does not do assault. They just die way to easily and you will probably lose half your force trying to move midfield.

Actually Guard CC blobs recently received a huge buff assuming youre willing to throw in Inquisitors and maybe SM allies.

Take fore example a 50 man blob with power axes.
Add a xenos inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades+hammerhand (85 pts)
Now this squad will reduce the enemy toughness by 1 on the charge and hit at 1 higher strength, that means on the charge you will put out ~100 s4 attacks and 15 S6 attacks (that ID t4 models due to rad grenades) the squad is stubborn so wont be running away and should you wish you can add either loth or tiggyto give them psychic powers, the best are Enfeeble (now those supposedly puny guardsmen can ID t5 models) Endurance (Lets you add relentless heavy weapons so you can shoot them while you run forward into combat) Prescience for rerolls to hit, Forewarning for a 4++, Misfortune to make the enemy reroll saves (2+ is now closer to a 3) Gate of infinity to get around the board quickly, Telekine dome to help ensure they can get into cc without to many casualties, and my favorite Invisibility (2+ cover and your enemy is WS1 meaning you hit them on 3's and they hit you on 5's)

I would strongly recommend against commisars as inquisitors now do everything they do both better and cheaper.

It won't work well. Play Krieg assault if you must.

As people have said, it will be an uphill battle that more or less requires external help from allies to even make it worth considering as a viable tactic against the majority of competitive builds nowadays.

The first inherent problem is that assault this edition has been nerfed with the changes to rolling randomly for assault and the many counters it has with the additions to shooting such as overwatch and removing models from the front. This of course means that relatively mediocre close combat units like your guardsmen are only going to be even worse than in the previous edition as any ground you cover will be cut in half from enemy fire as you doubtlessly take handfuls of models off the board.

Imperial Guard also have no way to mitigate the assault disadvantage of requiring some form of mobility to get to grips with the foe since they have no real ways to reliably get fleet and lack any form of large capacity assault transports to protect your squishy units.

Durability wise you more or less rely on sheer numbers rather than anything else to try and survive or deal damage. This means without allies like Dark Angels with Azrael or their Power Field Generators your men will drop like flies to any sort of firepower. The plethora of cover-ignoring weaponry will leave even terrain and things like defense lines as relatively inconsequential due to the rate of how many models you will lose regardless of it.

Also many of the things you want to get into close combat with often can't be hurt by Guardsmen, even with buffs like Hammerhand. Monstrous Creatures like Wraithknights, Riptides or Flying Hive Tyrants (w/Iron Arm) can outright ignore your blobs thanks largely to their own mobility that you lack and the fact that their toughness (at least for the wraithlord but also for anyone MC with Iron Arm) makes them effectively immune to anything short of S5. Similarly, Flyers like the Heldrake or Night Scythes will have field days essentially bombarding your troops with impunity.

Terrain can also be used to your disadvantage because using blob upon blob can be incredibly cumbersome and unwieldy that canny opponents can slowly whittle down and bottleneck until they're in manageable numbers to be taken down piecemeal.

Basically there's too many variables that are against IG as a legitimate close combat army and seeing as how most close combat focussed armies much better in aptitude and mobility are struggling it demonstrates how big of a pickle close combat guardsmen would be.

In the case where you really, REALLY want to I would suggest trying out Colonel Straken for an HQ choice. Possibly with Ogryn squads as counter attack units to trudge alongside your infantry waves.

Ok guys, thanks for all the help - I think it would be better to just go with a long rangeish army

It seems odd that nobody mentioned imperial priests....They can have eviscerators and they buff blob squad in CC quite nicely (rerolls to hit in assault for a blob? yes please!) I found out the hard way not to deep strike within their assault range. They munched through ten Death Company that came out of drop pod without batting an eye. With some power weapons on the sergeants to hide behind regular troopers (and one to sacrifice for challenges), guard can do some damage in CC.

talljosh85 wrote:
It seems odd that nobody mentioned imperial priests....They can have eviscerators and they buff blob squad in CC quite nicely (rerolls to hit in assault for a blob? yes please!) I found out the hard way not to deep strike within their assault range. They munched through ten Death Company that came out of drop pod without batting an eye. With some power weapons on the sergeants to hide behind regular troopers (and one to sacrifice for challenges), guard can do some damage in CC.

Probably because sadly Ministorum Priests in the IG codex is nowhere near as awesome sauce as the revised ones in the Adepta Sororitas or Inquisition codex who give not only give the blob fearless with Zealot but also allows them to reroll to hit regardless of whether they charged or not. This alongside their cheaper prices and battle hymns make the IG ones look like wussies. That need to charge to get the re-rolls is killer given that they don't have access to some sort of assault insurance like fleet. Also regardless of how you spin it a one wound T3 60+ point WS3 model with only 2 attacks is a very big investment in something that can be easily killed even with LoS saves and the Rosarius.

But he could use those Inquisitors as fairly cheap, useful allies to do that job, I guess?

I am building something based off SoB/Inquisition/IG that i think can be cool.

I dont run huge blobs i run a bare bones squad. I use them mostly as objective holders and back line fire support.

But i find that with the new priests from SoB and an Inquisitor in the blob can be pretty challenging. Throw them in range of Jacobs (SoB HQ) Counter Attack aura and they can gain a decent advantage if someone charges them.

So they get 1 of 2 powers from the Priest (Reroll Armorsave/Reroll Dmg) ... Fearless + Hatred from the priest. And from the Inquisitor they get Stubborn (Fearless beats it but incase priest dies) and leadership 10.

A force sword ... Eviserator ... and a couple of power axes with reroll tohit/Wound and Counter Attack can be fun.

I agree they're not nearly as awesome as the updated priests (the AS ones are SO wonderful and pretty much auto includes in my sisters list) but if you want to do CC blob guard, for 60 pts they are a solid combat multiplier and from within the codex.

talljosh85 wrote:
I agree they're not nearly as awesome as the updated priests (the AS ones are SO wonderful and pretty much auto includes in my sisters list) but if you want to do CC blob guard, for 60 pts they are a solid combat multiplier and from within the codex.

Or better plan skip him entirely, and take a divination inquisitor, then you can use prescience and reroll hits while shooting and in all close combat rounds, not only when you charge (you wont charge much) and get stubborn.

They are a bargain and now every imperial army can prescience everything and GW will sell tons of Inquisitors and codices.

I'm not saying the priest is superior, just a different option and not an ally. With an eviscerator.

Why argue use both ....

You can afford to Prescience on another squad to lighten them up and let Hatred and the Priest power give tohit/to wound rerolls.
Then you can Prescience the assault squad for rounds afterwards

Best part is ... the priest costs as much as a Commissar.

Don't forget to take a Xenos inquisitor with rad and psychostroke grenades. -1T, possibly auto-hitting is pretty nice.

Given that you more or less have to spread out to minimise blast damage, even if you manage to move upfield and pull off an assault, it is very unlikely you'll get more than a dozen men into assault range, if that. So even under the best circumstances, you'll be lucky to get maybe twenty attacks, and your power weapons may or may not be in range. Assaulting blobs just do not work in my experience.

I do find that equipping my mechvettes for assault does help though. For, iirc, 15 points you can give the sargent a power axes and a meltabomb, and swap the lasguns out for shotguns. Most people write off veterans once their ride has been popped, but if you equip your sargent properly then you can assault and take a couple of wounds off many enemies, depending on the iniative of who you're playing.

But in general, discard the idea that guard can work as an assaulty army, in this ruleset and using the current codex.

xruslanx wrote:
Given that you more or less have to spread out to minimise blast damage, even if you manage to move upfield and pull off an assault, it is very unlikely you'll get more than a dozen men into assault range, if that. So even under the best circumstances, you'll be lucky to get maybe twenty attacks, and your power weapons may or may not be in range. Assaulting blobs just do not work in my experience.

I do find that equipping my mechvettes for assault does help though. For, iirc, 15 points you can give the sargent a power axes and a meltabomb, and swap the lasguns out for shotguns. Most people write off veterans once their ride has been popped, but if you equip your sargent properly then you can assault and take a couple of wounds off many enemies, depending on the iniative of who you're playing.

But in general, discard the idea that guard can work as an assaulty army, in this ruleset and using the current codex.

Guard don't do regular assault. It's not about getting your beefy guys in combat as quickly as possible and wiping people off the board. It's about getting into a protracted, multi-turn grind. Using stubbornness to ignore losing large swaths of your unit and using inquisitors or Azrael to minimize damage with the 4++. If you attach sisters and inquisitors to the blob you can get re-rolls on the 4++ too.

So you take up space, waste your opponents time and perhaps eventually cause enough wounds to wipe out the enemy units.

Jakobokaj wrote:
Actually Guard CC blobs recently received a huge buff assuming youre willing to throw in Inquisitors and maybe SM allies.

Take fore example a 50 man blob with power axes.
Add a xenos inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades+hammerhand (85 pts)
Now this squad will reduce the enemy toughness by 1 on the charge and hit at 1 higher strength, that means on the charge you will put out ~100 s4 attacks and 15 S6 attacks (that ID t4 models due to rad grenades) the squad is stubborn so wont be running away and should you wish you can add either loth or tiggyto give them psychic powers, the best are Enfeeble (now those supposedly puny guardsmen can ID t5 models) Endurance (Lets you add relentless heavy weapons so you can shoot them while you run forward into combat) Prescience for rerolls to hit, Forewarning for a 4++, Misfortune to make the enemy reroll saves (2+ is now closer to a 3) Gate of infinity to get around the board quickly, Telekine dome to help ensure they can get into cc without to many casualties, and my favorite Invisibility (2+ cover and your enemy is WS1 meaning you hit them on 3's and they hit you on 5's)

I would strongly recommend against commisars as inquisitors now do everything they do both better and cheaper.

To bad thats really off. The chance of you getting all the guardsmen in combat at once is slim to none and if you are bunched up that much you will easily have eaten every blast or large blast your opponent has and suffered huge casualties. But as mentioned if you are charging guardsmen across the board I would say you would probably lose half by the time you reached midfield.

Ive been playing footguard more so lately trung to make it work and have noticed if you are out of cover your guardsmen will probably die if someone looks at them funny. It is super important to be behind an aegis and or in some sort of cover but once you leave that then you will probably start losing guys like you wouldnt believe.

I dont use mine as assault but rather a counter assault.

They are in my army to hold objectives and counter assault outflanking units from getting to my more important units.

I wouldn't try to move them up in assault i would just wait raining down heavy weapons till they have to counter assault.
The goal is to make them as good a counter assault unit as you can.
Characters with grenades, counter attack, staying in terrain ... all mitigate the enemies assault advantages.
While the Divination actually make your shooting more dangerous ... imagine a prescience with frfsrf and then again on snapfire.

The most dangerous thing i can think of are templates that ignore cover ... thats your guardsmen best save 9-10 times and if it is ignored chances are your armors ignored as well.

The main challange of CC armies is first and foremost getting into combat, aka mobility.

While you can kit out a 50 man blob squad with invuln saves and crazy buffs via ICs from other codex's the main challenge is still getting into the fight without being shot off the table.

You either need to find some disruption unit that can turn 1/2 deal with heavy shooters or invest in some units that can provide ample screening (i.e landraiders turned sideways)

With my guard, I try to avod combat. I'll use grey knights or marines as allies to pick up that slack. The combination usually works pretty well for me.
We used to have a thread discussing ways to help players effectively use units with close combat abilities but that must be a taboo topic as the thread was closed.

Well I'll say one thing in favour of a CC-orientated IG list. It would definitely have the advantage of surprise! There'd be a lot of rapid re-thinking going on from my side of the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EVIL INC wrote:
We used to have a thread discussing ways to help players effectively use units with close combat abilities but that must be a taboo topic as the thread was closed.

You never, ever stop baiting, do you? Are we to put up with you re-opening that with endless snide comments in every other thread as well, now?

before 6th ed and the nerfing of power lances, I would occasionally take a unit of rough riders to handle persky DS termies.
Ogryn still aren't too bad especially with the toughness of 5 but they are just too many eggs in one basket for me.
Penal legion can be a good wild card, if you get the right roll. I only use them though when I wanna show off my paint job on them (orange jumpsuits).

now see I would highly suggest rough riders,,,they are an awesome fire and forget weapon,,,,,point them at something you want dead and then let them get mowed down ,,,they are cheap and highly effective you just have to maneuver them around cover then strike,

Ogryn cost as much as a Vendetta. I can't think of any tactical reason why anyone would take the former over the latter.

 Paimon wrote:
Ogryn cost as much as a Vendetta. I can't think of any tactical reason why anyone would take the former over the latter.

Maybe he wants to play Ogryns because of building close combat army?

Or he just wants to play some not so "auto-include" units.

Honestly, I wonder, why there is always someone saying "hey, why take XXX when you can have vendetta?" Maybe, just maybe some people wants to just have fun with experimental armies, trying new units etc. For me, thats best tactical reason of all.

 Paimon wrote:
Ogryn cost as much as a Vendetta. I can't think of any tactical reason why anyone would take the former over the latter.

because people don't want to be waac players with no friends or opponents?

Also good luck taking out a mob of genestealers with a vendetta.

As said before, yarrick and 40-50 man blob squads, with commissars/seargents with power axes, meltaguns/bombs too.

Or play krieg, they may be a little more expensive but WS4 and iron discipline with the sustained assault rule is well worth it

Also consider allying in azrael from DA, 4++ and fearless on a 50 man blob is not to be sniffed at

Assault guard is a brilliant theme, and doesnt have to make up the entire army, you could have tanks/artillery and some hvy weapon squads and still have a 50 man blob with yarrick and the trimmings that charge up the field for death or glory! Also perhaps a priest (aswell as a priest allied in from codex inquistion) could add to the carnage. Also just because it isn't "ultra competitive" doesnt mean you shouldn't do it, a horde of men charging across the battlefield screaming "for the emperor" while those in front of them get moved down is iconic of the 40k universe and the huge melee that erupts from it just fantastic

CC guard looks like this


2X50 man blob, axes/Mbombs on srgts

2X primaris pyskers, 4 rolls on biomancy, hoping for enfeeble/FNP/whatever
2Xinquisitors with hammerhand + rad+psychotrope grenades, other with divination
ally in space wolves, two rune preists, also in squads.
so more DIV rolls,

so you will have 50 guys, re rolling hits, +1 str, -1 enemy str, pyschotrope effects, possible enfeeble too... it just goes on and on...