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Made in us
Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





So i see a lot of post and tournies responses lately on the Seer council with Baron. While i admit in the hand of good player it is deadly, but it is also a lot of points... And from first hand experiences against a few really really good players, multiple games, I have to say i have not personally struggled with it. This is not a post to bash if its good or not, hands down it is good. But just thoughts of how this unit can be dealt with without thinking GW has to change the rules. Some of these examples have some very rough odds, some have really decent ones. Some are hands down the best... But Just some thoughts for people who struggle or may face the Seer Council in the future, as my thanksgiving spiral ham is cooking!

In no particular order.

1) going first prior to seer council getting any spells off, (i understand seer player gets plus 1 for going first) But if you get first turn do anything you can to simplify the unit.
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.
3) Daemons fiends can hurt their chances to get off spells
4) Heralds of slannesh can force any member of that squad to accept a challenge, baron might not be the best choice FYI
5) Centurion devs? AP 3 or 2 shots if seer got that spell off to add +1 armor save. Enough wounds will force a 4+ invul save roll, and yes im sure they will get to reroll failed ones, but just start to dwindle it down. ***EDIT: Seer Squad could have shrouded on a warlock giving them a 2+ cover which destroys this option.

6) Assault with decent size termie squads, have a libby to prescience or FNP or some other buff for your own unit.
7) lots and lots of spam fire, dark eldar, bolter drill. 2 Rerollable is ruff to get past but again its a small unit, just start to weaken it.
8) Any psyker who can get misfortune.. A Lvl 3 will still grant Seer Council with Farseer a 5+ deny, while a lvl 2 casting misfortune will grant them a 4+ Deny.
9) Rune priest with JOTWW
10) Calidus assassin
11) Nemesor Zandrek
12) Necron abyssal staff (the ap1 that wounds against leadership) Stick this cryptek in that elite unit that wounds on 2's , hell do it 2-3 times
13) Taking advantage of failed psychic rolls. If he fails that plus 1 armor save, or fortune roll. Be in place to take advantage.
14) I do not know much about Tyranids, but im sure their is something crazy in their book to deal/handle it. EDIT: The choices that makes you take leadership on 3d6, Credit to: Thatguyoverthere11, thanks for input
15) Volume of fire condemner bolters that have NOT been faq'd that they have to wound to cause perils. I think one book still only has to "hit", Remember Seer council all generate a warp charge on YOUR turn also, so they can burn a warp charge to avoid a perils. You will need to hurt each model twice.
16) Volume of attacks Ork boyz, again if they 2 + rerollable will be really tough.
17) Njal storm caller 3+ Null
18) Rune priest 4+ null
19) Avoid it like the plague and kill everything else at best never assault and let him come in and poke a unit on his turns, maybe even wipe one out. But dont get trapped into thinking you have to bail out that squad in trouble from seer council, stay focused.
20) Any S8 or better ap1 or 2 blast. Math-hammer says they save the wound (remember they are rerolling invuls assume) But we have all seen our fair share of a roll of 2 followed by a roll of 3.. A Large blast hits 4 people, 4 wounds. They make 2 and fail 2, they reroll and make 1. Again its 1 wound and if its on the farseer, he's dead. EDIT: might not be to good if the Seer council as Shrouded, unless the blast/large blast ignores cover.
EDIT: 21) Mind strike missiles. Credit to : Lanlaorn on the input
EDIT: 22) Swarm LORD, Credit to:Thatguyoverthere11, thanks for input
EDIT: 23) Psychic Shriek, pretty short range but very viable with a lvl 2, and even better if its a lvl 3. Credit to: Fragile


With many list you can use different pieces of combinations to hurt that unit and really shut it down.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2013/11/28 19:36:20


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Made in ie
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Limerick

Good attempt, but I've got some holes to poke in your efforts.

Tsilber wrote:
1) going first prior to seer council getting any spells off, (i understand seer player gets plus 1 for going first) But if you get first turn do anything you can to simplify the unit.


If the opponent is even half-decent at the game he will have the sense to start the Council out of sight if there's a good chance of going second. I know I wouldn't take that risk.

Tsilber wrote:
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.


It really isn't a good option because the Baron just passes it off to a Warlock on a 2+.

Tsilber wrote:
5) Centurion devs? AP 3 or 2 shots if seer got that spell off to add +1 armor save. Enough wounds will force a 4+ invul save roll, and yes im sure they will get to reroll failed ones, but just start to dwindle it down.


Actually if will force a 2+ cover save, not a 4+ invul.; they are all on Bikes and the Baron adds Stealth while one Warlock should be adding Shrouded.

Tsilber wrote:
6) Assault with decent size termie squads, have a libby to prescience or FNP or some other buff for your own unit.


This is not even close to a reasonable counter. Termies move 6" only so shouldn't catch the Council unless the Eldar player is very sloppy, and even then, the Baron gives them Hit and Run.

Tsilber wrote:
7) lots and lots of spam fire, dark eldar, bolter drill. 2 Rerollable is ruff to get past but again its a small unit, just start to weaken it.


You are right that SPAM fire is the way to go, but don't get the illusion that this is a small unit. The average load-out is 5-6 Warlocks, 2 Farseers and the Baron, so 8-9 models in a game where plenty of units come in 10's.

Tsilber wrote:
10) Calidus assassin


How do you figure? The Callidus isn't good in general even.

Tsilber wrote:
11) Nemesor Zandrek


Again, not really. He can take away one special rule. The whole presence of the Council however is the stacking of several rules and powers, so you aren't really doing much except taking away the overkill.

Tsilber wrote:
16) Volume of attacks Ork boyz, again if they 2 + rerollable will be really tough.


Just like Terminators, where are you getting the idea that Orks can catch Jetlocks?

Tsilber wrote:
17) Njal storm caller 3+ Null
18) Rune priest 4+ null


These are the same point and you have mentioned it already. Same with several of the points I haven't listed which are all variations of saying shoot it. It may be misleading to some less experienced player when you make it look like there are several tactics when in actual fact you are just repeating yourself.

Tsilber wrote:
20) Any T8 or better ap1 or 2 blast. Math-hammer says they save the wound (remember they are rerolling invuls assume) But we have all seen our fair share of a roll of 2 followed by a roll of 3.. A Large blast hits 4 people, 4 wounds. They make 2 and fail 2, they reroll and make 1. Again its 1 wound and if its on the farseer, he's dead.


Sorry but T8 doesn't matter because they have Witchblades. And again, you seem to not realise that the Baron Council have a 2+ cover save, so AP becomes irrelevant unless the shot also ignores cover.

Honestly I think it's great that you are being proactive in coming up with ways to defeat one of the metas current offenders, but I think in order to do that you should get more comfortable with all of their rules, because it seems several times like you were either unaware or ignoring some of them, particularly where cover saves are involved.

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Nosebiter wrote:
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Agile Revenant Titan





Scotland

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Tsilber wrote:
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.


It really isn't a good option because the Baron just passes it off to a Warlock on a 2+.



Actually, Vindicare Assassin's shots can never be LoS!'d. (Or rather, they can, but the Vindicare's player can choose where they go - including back on to the original model).

Iranna.

 
   
Made in us
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Good counters, what this post was meant for.

First its hard to get all models in a big Seer council out of line of sight, and some weapons in the game dont require it anyway.

As stated, Vindi allocates wounds, and are not "look out sir-able"

Centurion Devs, giving 2 + cover. If they have shrouded, didnt think of that. So you are correct perhaps Centurions are not a viable option.

Termies in Transports... And if the council is trying to avoid them, then just place them close to your other units.

Callidus is far from terrible, she drops in and does d6 str 4 ap 2 hits. She then is placed anywhere within 6" with a star 8 ap 1 template wounding on leader ship. Majority Leadership is 8 in that unit?

Nemesor...Taking away hit and run, then swarming them with swarms or warriors or whatever... yes its a very good option mate. That unit is stuck in combat all game.

Orks in trucks/battle wagons. See Termies above.

As for NJAL and runepriest, i didnt mention anything about their Null bubble to psychic powers.... I mentioned any psyker getting misfortune. But nothing about Njals staff shutting down spells on a 3+ within 24inches...

I meant STR 8 template, but you are correct on that cover save being 2 +. I think this example will still be viable option for the over charge duel riptide in a unit with a force commander rerolling hits and ignoring cover...

And yes i forgot about shrouded, not that i didn't know the rules my friend... other then that not sure what other rules of play you may be referring to.... Unless you meant the Vindi wounds allocation which you were incorrect on. I appreciate the feedback it does knock out a couple of the things listed. And thats what this post was all about, brainstorming and hearing counters and input to improve this list for other players who may run into a Seer council at the tourney.
Cheers and happy Thanks Giving.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/28 23:47:51


2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
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2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
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A lot of this stuff not only doesn't work but is actually a terrible idea, one that hasn't been criticized yet is JotWW. The unit has a very good Deny the Witch roll and very high initiative on every model. I'm not sure how you imagine this working out in your favor.

Also you didn't mention the single strongest weapon against the Seer Council: Grey Knight Stormravens' Mindstrike Missiles. Only Farseers have Ghosthelms, target the Warlocks with the key powers and they evaporate with no save, two per turn, four missiles total.
   
Made in us
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Lanlaorn wrote:
A lot of this stuff not only doesn't work but is actually a terrible idea, one that hasn't been criticized yet is JotWW. The unit has a very good Deny the Witch roll and very high initiative on every model. I'm not sure how you imagine this working out in your favor.

Also you didn't mention the single strongest weapon against the Seer Council: Grey Knight Stormravens' Mindstrike Missiles. Only Farseers have Ghosthelms, target the Warlocks with the key powers and they evaporate with no save, two per turn, four missiles total.


Well thanks for adding why you think it is a terrible idea... How novel, its a terrible idea... JOTWW from Njal is denied on a 5+, 4+ from a lvl 2 runepriest (still better than 2+,3+ or a 4+ saving throws that are re-rollable. If positioned it could hit a fair amount maybe even 4-5-6. Lets assume the person playing the space wolf Army has some common sense.... A 6 always fails so with only 3 hits you kill a model 50% of the time. Thats far better than most save options the Seer council will have.

And before we get to out of whack with "this is terrible" or "this sucks"... without saying why i might add.

This post is for people who run, Necrons, or Tyranids, or space marines, or Space Wolves or X codex that may run into a Seer Council at a tourney. People who play with a themed army or play an army they simply love and not because everyone else says it is good or not. So this post was directed towards people making a list to play in a tourney and each books possible strong point when/if facing the seer council in a tourney. This was not meant as a post for people to make list to go out an BEAT a SEER Council army.


Mind strike missiles is a very good option, i forgot about it. Thanks for the input. 2 missiles a turn, and if he fails a lock out sir to a farseer you are correct it kills a warlock.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/11/28 18:27:36


2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
2015 Templecon/Onslaught 40kGT, Best overall
2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
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There is one solution. One that would not require everyone to buy new armies or change their current army so much that it loses to average lists. Start a movement in USA to ban all Battle Brothers. All BB become allies of Convienance. This means no Baron in the Jetseer.

You can still play everything in the game, it's just the sick cross codex combos will be gone. No more Farseer attached to Broadsides. No more tau Commander attached to Dark Reapers. No more Marine HQ leading 50 guardsmen.

Eliminate battle Brothers as a choice and make the current BB's all Allies of Convienance.
   
Made in us
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DarthDiggler wrote:
There is one solution. One that would not require everyone to buy new armies or change their current army so much that it loses to average lists. Start a movement in USA to ban all Battle Brothers. All BB become allies of Convienance. This means no Baron in the Jetseer.

You can still play everything in the game, it's just the sick cross codex combos will be gone. No more Farseer attached to Broadsides. No more tau Commander attached to Dark Reapers. No more Marine HQ leading 50 guardsmen.

Eliminate battle Brothers as a choice and make the current BB's all Allies of Convienance.


LOL, so true. I saw this suggestions posted on the "Daboyz" toruney section. But lets face it, it wont happen. You make a petition, ill happily sign it. But assuming that never happens. Again this was meant for the here and now, and i do not think this post makes most people change their armies so much. Most space marines players have Centurions, most space wolf players have a rune priest, most necrons have Warriors or scarabs. At most is purchasing Njal, or Nemesor, A Vindicare.

But im with ya on the battle brothers thing. But if the rules are it exist now, then lets come up with a way to try to at least deal with it. The option is Try to brainstorm as a community to deal with it, do nothing, or stop playing the game... Ill take the first option and try to help, even if the odds on most suggestions are not in the favor. Doing the right thing is always best, doing the wrong thing is 2nd, but doing nothing at all is the absolute worst and changes nothing.

Cheers,
30 minutes till Ham is done.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/28 18:24:50


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I play Tyranids pretty regularly and they make you take leadership tests on 3D6... makes LD8 pretty difficult to get past. I also run the swarmlord who makes you reroll successful invulnerable saves and inflicts instant death.

   
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Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
I play Tyranids pretty regularly and they make you take leadership tests on 3D6... makes LD8 pretty difficult to get past. I also run the swarmlord who makes you reroll successful invulnerable saves and inflicts instant death.



Doom is good, but Seers can use covers saves vs it. Using Psy Shriek is a good option, but you have a high DTW.

JotWW is a decent tool, but not great vs Seerstars. First I would recommend shooting through another unit to negate the high DTW, but secondly a high INI helps to avoid it. Overall though, getting lucky on a Farseer or Baron would be really nice.

Vindicare is all around a good option vs the Star, but less so versus other armies. Going first makes him very good manning a Lascannon, but less so once the star begins casting.
   
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Good on ya Tsilber! +1

There are WAY to many A-holes coming out of the wood work trying hard to shoot you down. Most of the time their wrong. The other half of the time they don't understand that this is a thread for ALL army's.

Seriously dakkanaughts, take the nerd-troll rage dooowwwnnnn a notch.

4,000 Word Bearers 1,500 
   
Made in us
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Connecticut

Here are some of the big ones that caused me a hassle when I was using the Seer Council.

Flyrants or Doom in a Pod
Shadows of the Warp is not very dangerous when on a Termigon, but when it can fly right in your face on his turn, its a real hassle. Sure you can shoot down the flyrants in a few turns, but those few turns will have your army very vulnerable. While the fortune will only be blocked 50% of the time -- warlocks are shut down hard.


Broadsides / Wave Serpents Going First
If you don't go first, your in trouble against some armies. People say "Just keep your seers out of LoS". The reality is that seers have a big footprint and its hard just to keep all of them out of LoS against armies packing 4 serpents, or broadsides (that don't even need LoS). It does not happen often, but sometimes people can take big chunks out of your seers before you start.


Flyers
Seers are awesome, but I've had problems against necron flyers with Tau allies. You can't get your seers to the troops to chew them up, and given the Tau allies your wanting to go first -- giving the Necron player the advantage of dropping onto objectives on turn 5+. This matchup is a surprising pita.
C:SM flyers can also prove to be a problem. You cannot assault things zooming overhead because jetbikes apparently can jump over ruins but not onto flyers....


Rune Priest
This was kind of a hassle, but usually people would drop the priest within 24" of my seers. I just assaulted and killed the rune priest and all his buddies on the following turn. If someone brought multiple priests it might pose a problem.


These are counters I thought of, but I've not played yet.
Sisters of Battle with Priests
Priests give a reroll on armor saves in assault. SoBs normally have a 3+ save, meaning they will save 35/36 of the time. You run a few SoB blobs and his seers won't be able to hurt them. For added hilarity, add two inquisitors with hammerhand so your sisters are punching at STR 5.

~Edit : Happy thanksgiving everyone!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/28 19:28:11


 
   
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Thatguyoverthere11: Thanks for your input, added above mate!

Fragile: PSY SHRIEK, YES! How did i forget that. And the DTW is only a 5+ if Coming from a lvl 3 psyker. And 4+ from a lvl 2 psyker. But still much better options of saves then a 2+, 3+, 4+ save/invul thats rerollable. Great addition, thanks.

Red Marine: Thanks mate, but its all good. I really hate non face conversation and debates, Its hard to read peoples tones and "How" they are saying it. I don't think people mean to be offensive. But again conversations are much different face to face, and dealing with it here isnt to hard. Cheers.

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2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
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Played in a GT a few weeks back with the Jetseer. I definitely ran into a few issues.

-Not getting Fortune. With 2 Farseers, I got Fortune 3 out of 7 games.

-Shard of Anaris should be mandatory for the Jetseer for Fearless. It's not guaranteed to get Embolden or rely on LD8 psychic tests.

-Shadows of the Warp causing me to fail Fortune and Embolden rolls. The Jetseer does not cause much damage in assualt and can get swept.

-Grey Knights. Mind Strike Missiles are a beast.

-Njal is a PITA

-Inability to get into assault against Tau as their overwatch combined with my lack of Fortune was brutal.

Don't get me wrong, this unit darn near single handedly tabled a Necron and a Chaos army, but the other games got pretty one sided once I lost the Jetseer.


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 Sarigar wrote:
-Not getting Fortune. With 2 Farseers, I got Fortune 3 out of 7 games.
If your delving for fortune, you have a 75% of getting it in each game.

If you missed it in 4 out of 7 games -- that's just bad luck.
   
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Tsilber wrote:
Lanlaorn wrote:
A lot of this stuff not only doesn't work but is actually a terrible idea, one that hasn't been criticized yet is JotWW. The unit has a very good Deny the Witch roll and very high initiative on every model. I'm not sure how you imagine this working out in your favor.

Also you didn't mention the single strongest weapon against the Seer Council: Grey Knight Stormravens' Mindstrike Missiles. Only Farseers have Ghosthelms, target the Warlocks with the key powers and they evaporate with no save, two per turn, four missiles total.


Well thanks for adding why you think it is a terrible idea... How novel, its a terrible idea... JOTWW from Njal is denied on a 5+, 4+ from a lvl 2 runepriest (still better than 2+,3+ or a 4+ saving throws that are re-rollable. If positioned it could hit a fair amount maybe even 4-5-6. Lets assume the person playing the space wolf Army has some common sense.... A 6 always fails so with only 3 hits you kill a model 50% of the time. Thats far better than most save options the Seer council will have.

And before we get to out of whack with "this is terrible" or "this sucks"... without saying why i might add.

This post is for people who run, Necrons, or Tyranids, or space marines, or Space Wolves or X codex that may run into a Seer Council at a tourney. People who play with a themed army or play an army they simply love and not because everyone else says it is good or not. So this post was directed towards people making a list to play in a tourney and each books possible strong point when/if facing the seer council in a tourney. This was not meant as a post for people to make list to go out an BEAT a SEER Council army.


Mind strike missiles is a very good option, i forgot about it. Thanks for the input. 2 missiles a turn, and if he fails a lock out sir to a farseer you are correct it kills a warlock.



You can't Look Out Sir a Perils of the Warp, and that's what a Mindstrike Missiles cause. The models under the blast template just die, it's ridiculously effective.
   
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It still allocates wounds to the closest psyker first though until he is dead I believe (I only believe this because I've seen battle reports where a Jetcouncil has Tanked mindstrike missiles on the Farseers) so with smart placement Farseers are very, very good at deflecting PotW. Since they generate warp charges even in your opponents turn but can't cast any of your own powers, that's 3 ghosthelm perils tanked per farseer before any real damage is done! But I admit, mindstrike missiles are very good at killing heralds in a screamerstar or tyranid psyker creatures though,

Alex

 
   
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I should have been more clear, shadow in the warp makes psykers cast on 3D6. If you get within 12" early, at the beginning of their turn they'll have to cast before they can move away. Even with a reroll, LD8 passes very seldom. I think runes of warding do something similar. Gk dreadnoughts make them test at -4 leadership within 12"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
It still allocates wounds to the closest psyker first though until he is dead I believe (I only believe this because I've seen battle reports where a Jetcouncil has Tanked mindstrike missiles on the Farseers) so with smart placement Farseers are very, very good at deflecting PotW. Since they generate warp charges even in your opponents turn but can't cast any of your own powers, that's 3 ghosthelm perils tanked per farseer before any real damage is done! But I admit, mindstrike missiles are very good at killing heralds in a screamerstar or tyranid psyker creatures though,

Alex


I used to get so mad when my buddy would snipe my TMC on the first turn in 5th... 4 missiles means 1 dead tyrant

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/28 22:57:53


 
   
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 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
It still allocates wounds to the closest psyker first though until he is dead I believe (I only believe this because I've seen battle reports where a Jetcouncil has Tanked mindstrike missiles on the Farseers) so with smart placement Farseers are very, very good at deflecting PotW. Since they generate warp charges even in your opponents turn but can't cast any of your own powers, that's 3 ghosthelm perils tanked per farseer before any real damage is done! But I admit, mindstrike missiles are very good at killing heralds in a screamerstar or tyranid psyker creatures though,

Alex


I don't think that was played correctly, the wording on Mindstrike missiles is,

Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects


I don't think there's any room for interpretation there, you're not allocating wounds so there's no LoS and there's no allocating to the nearest units from the direction of the Stormraven.

Someone can make a YMDC thread if they want, but I think it's fairly cut and dry. Any models under the template suffer Perils, Perils causes a wound with no saves allowed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/28 23:02:26


 
   
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Yeah i stand corrected, Hits cause perils. And its Wounds that are allocated to the closest unit, and also wound allocation receive "Look out sirs".
So i think it goes like this ? IF A mindstrike blast covers Warlock A B and C out of a total of 5 warlocks and a farseer, and it then causes 2 wounds out of a possible 3.... First Warlock A B and C all take a perils from the blast "HIT". Then lets pretend Warlock D and E are all closest to the storm Raven firing the missile. However even closer is a Farseer, well the 2 wounds that were caused by the missile would be against the Farseer, who would then make look out sirs if he wanted to, to Warlocks D or E which ever is closest to him. Yes?

Again this is assuming the Mind Stikes were not FAQ'd to , unsaved wounds cause perils and no longer hits. I do not know, i just know something thats causes perils on a hit was recently FAQ'd to unsaved wounds. Might be the Sisters or Inquisitors condemnor bolters.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/28 23:19:51


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 Sarigar wrote:
Played in a GT a few weeks back with the Jetseer. I definitely ran into a few issues.

-Not getting Fortune. With 2 Farseers, I got Fortune 3 out of 7 games.

-Shard of Anaris should be mandatory for the Jetseer for Fearless. It's not guaranteed to get Embolden or rely on LD8 psychic tests.

-Shadows of the Warp causing me to fail Fortune and Embolden rolls. The Jetseer does not cause much damage in assualt and can get swept.

-Grey Knights. Mind Strike Missiles are a beast.

-Njal is a PITA

-Inability to get into assault against Tau as their overwatch combined with my lack of Fortune was brutal.

Don't get me wrong, this unit darn near single handedly tabled a Necron and a Chaos army, but the other games got pretty one sided once I lost the Jetseer.


Yes the Shard or some other Fearless character (usually only seen with double FOC) is mandatory, tbh I don't know how anyone can consider taking a unit that costs more than 200pts that doesn't have Stubborn/Fearless/ATSKNF - its outright crazy when you are talking about a 800pt unit.

Tbh failing Fortune against Nids shouldn't cripple you, even without it you should be making a huge mess of any Nid unit before it swings - an untouched Council should kill a Tervigon before it can attack (its a stretch if it has Endurance, but it doesn't care about FNP - they can also challenge with the Shard Farseer and ID the Tervigon pretty easily) and is going to ruin any unit of Gaunts which assault it (no charge bonuses, you swing first and kill 10+ Gaunts, they hit on 4's wound on 4's with no re-rolls). In any case you should be a) targeting the MCs first so you can cast freely later in the game and b) using Hit and Run to try and jump out of Shadows range and avoid getting swarmed. Since you should always be out of combat at the start of your turn due to Hit and Run failing Fortune should never cripple you against any army - you can always just turbo to the other side of the board...

Mind Strikes are painful (and yes they do just snipe out any Warlock they touch) but they shouldn't really be a huge issue. All you have to do is get to combat before they arrive (or hide out of LOS if you can't) and they should never touch you while you bounce from combat to combat. They are also one of the reasons why I run Crimson Hunters in my Council list, because 3 Hunters (with Comms Relay and Communion Inquisitor) lets you mess up Ravens quite easily so you don't have to worry about them late game.

Njal (and indeed Rune Priests in general) are annoying, but Wolves rarely bring tough enough units for them to hide in - which makes them much less of an issue. Njal usually only has a 3+ save so he can ride in a Rhino - and opening up a Rhino and killing 10 Marines isn't exactly hard for any Eldar build. The council can actually do it themselves as the anti psychic power bubble is only 24", so you can cast Fortune outside it and then move into range for a guaranteed assault next turn (and hitting first they don't need Fortune to deal with the majority of SW units which people actually field).

Tau without Fortune is almost certainly the worst possible matchup for the Council, it doesn't even matter if you got Protect and Invis, because they can power straight through those. Its the main reason I don't rate the Council above Serpent spam as the best Eldar build (they are equally good) - while you can play cagey with the Council and still do well without Fortune, against a couple of lists its almost an auto loss if you fail to get Fortune.

Psychic Shriek and Misfortune are why I try and squeeze in Runes of Warding. People usually only get once chance to cast them (before you jump up to them and beat there face in) so a 2+ to deny is actually pretty helpful when you need to stop that game changing power. Most of the time though Psychic Shriek won't be an issue, because its rare to see a ML3 psyker get it so its usually going to be a 4+ to deny and then you have to get through Ld10 with a 3D6 test (with a re-roll for Grisley Trophies) and then the 4++ re-rollable.

@Iranna. Due to the horrifically bad wording they used for the Vindicare you can technically create an infinite loop with LoS and allocating wounds and completely stall the game (he allocates like a normal precision shot, you LOS, Vindicare rule kicks in letting him allocate back to the first model, but you are still at the allocate wounds step so nothing stops you LOSing again). But yeah the Vindicare and other similar alpha strike units are why I have started running a Bastion in my Council list, it gives you a safe place to hide your most valuable models at the very least.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/29 00:24:51


 
   
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 Iranna wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Tsilber wrote:
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.


It really isn't a good option because the Baron just passes it off to a Warlock on a 2+.



Actually, Vindicare Assassin's shots can never be LoS!'d. (Or rather, they can, but the Vindicare's player can choose where they go - including back on to the original model).


Source? My GK Codex says no such thing.

Tsilber wrote:
Nemesor...Taking away hit and run, then swarming them with swarms or warriors or whatever... yes its a very good option mate. That unit is stuck in combat all game.

Orks in trucks/battle wagons. See Termies above.


Again, where do you get the impression that Warriors will be able to charge the Seer Council? More over, where do you get the idea that the Council can't handle Necron Warriors in combat anyway?

As for your transport idea, the Council is still faster, and if you try to group your entire army near that one transport then you have gimped your own game and lost it without the Eldar player needing to do more than put the Council on the board. The simple truth is slow combat units are not to answer to a close combat behemoth.

 Red Marine wrote:
Good on ya Tsilber! +1

There are WAY to many A-holes coming out of the wood work trying hard to shoot you down. Most of the time their wrong. The other half of the time they don't understand that this is a thread for ALL army's.

Seriously dakkanaughts, take the nerd-troll rage dooowwwnnnn a notch.


Fantastic post, you have demonstrated perfectly what the phrase 'the pot calling the kettle black means'. It's actually amusing that you've come on and asked us to stop our nerd-troll rage when you are the one who thought it would be good idea to randomly insult us by calling us a**holes just for disagreeing with him. Especially with the OP himself has taken the debate on the chin and hit back with a lively discussion.

Also, reported.

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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Iranna wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Tsilber wrote:
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.


It really isn't a good option because the Baron just passes it off to a Warlock on a 2+.



Actually, Vindicare Assassin's shots can never be LoS!'d. (Or rather, they can, but the Vindicare's player can choose where they go - including back on to the original model).


Source? My GK Codex says no such thing.
.


It was FAQ'd

Q: Does the Vindicare Assassin’s Deadshot special rule supersede the
Look Out, Sir special rule for the purposes of Wound allocation,
meaning that the player who owns the Vindicare Assassin is still
allowed to allocate the wounds from its shooting even if their opponent
makes and passes a Look Out, Sir roll? (p53)
A: Yes.
   
Made in us
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 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
 Iranna wrote:
 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Tsilber wrote:
2) Vindi assassin, in a list that has a bastion. People can always find good use for a bastion in their list. If you have the vindi and you play against long range or stuff that ignores cover (like eldar). Just in that particular game you stick the vindi inside, now they cant even target him until they destroy the bastion. Shield break the baron, or one of the seer councils that has a good spell. at best 2 turns to kill baron, at best 1 turn to kill a specific seer member. I understand you still have to wound and thats only 50% of the time, still a good option.


It really isn't a good option because the Baron just passes it off to a Warlock on a 2+.



Actually, Vindicare Assassin's shots can never be LoS!'d. (Or rather, they can, but the Vindicare's player can choose where they go - including back on to the original model).


Source? My GK Codex says no such thing.

Tsilber wrote:
Nemesor...Taking away hit and run, then swarming them with swarms or warriors or whatever... yes its a very good option mate. That unit is stuck in combat all game.

Orks in trucks/battle wagons. See Termies above.


Again, where do you get the impression that Warriors will be able to charge the Seer Council? More over, where do you get the idea that the Council can't handle Necron Warriors in combat anyway?

As for your transport idea, the Council is still faster, and if you try to group your entire army near that one transport then you have gimped your own game and lost it without the Eldar player needing to do more than put the Council on the board. The simple truth is slow combat units are not to answer to a close combat behemoth.

 Red Marine wrote:
Good on ya Tsilber! +1

There are WAY to many A-holes coming out of the wood work trying hard to shoot you down. Most of the time their wrong. The other half of the time they don't understand that this is a thread for ALL army's.

Seriously dakkanaughts, take the nerd-troll rage dooowwwnnnn a notch.


Fantastic post, you have demonstrated perfectly what the phrase 'the pot calling the kettle black means'. It's actually amusing that you've come on and asked us to stop our nerd-troll rage when you are the one who thought it would be good idea to randomly insult us by calling us a**holes just for disagreeing with him. Especially with the OP himself has taken the debate on the chin and hit back with a lively discussion.

Also, reported.



Check FAQ for Vindi...

My point was taking away the hit and run with Nemesor. Tying up the unit so it cant hit and run... It works well for a Necron player using Nemesor. I never said Eldar cant handle warriors, just tying em up for a few turns without hit and run. EXAMPLE though, warrior unit, nemesor, obyron teleports over and jumps in combat. Maybe a few lords with mind shackle scarabs....

As for Trucks or Land raiders.. Moving 6" deploy 6" and assault 2d6, last i checked thats the same threat/assault range Elder bikes have. If they stay away from that unit... then all the better. And no it doesn't gimp the army one bit. It keeps the Eldar Council away from your marines/lootas and anything else shooting away. If eldar Seer are afraid to assault or be assaulted by the big units i spoke of and it scare them from coming to close.... Then let them stay away and buff themselves all they want.. Whats their point then?

And as for your attack on Red Marine, i think that was un called for really. He didnt direct any words towards you... well unless you felt his attack was against you personaly and was offended of what he was saying.. But you did post earlier "Honestly I think it's great that you are being proactive in coming up with ways to defeat one of the metas current offenders, but I think in order to do that you should get more comfortable with all of their rules, because it seems several times like you were either unaware or ignoring some of them, particularly where cover saves are involved."

So it seems you are guilty of "the pot calling the kettle black also".... I asked other than forgetting that Warlocks might have Shroud, how do you justify your statement in a very nice way. I think its far from "several". And regardless if there are more errors, or more mistakes because of my lack of knowledge on the rules, which their isnt... Its okay to make this post. Its pretty bold to make a statement like the one you made on your first post (the one i quoted above) and then make a mistake yourself on your "hole punching" towards my efforts. (not knowing the Vindis Rules on wound allocation for example) .

Never the less this isnt meant as a pissing contest. And sometimes i think the post count on peoples tags some how reflects their level of knowledge and skill while playing the game. Sadly it does not one bit.... And frankly there is no need to make comments like "get better familiar with rules"... specially when you seem to be unaware of the rules yourself, its not a good look. Lets face it we all make mistakes, we all forget time to time those little things, and perhaps none of us are up to date 100% on GW's Errata... And there is no need to make comparison to "pot calling the kettle black", when we all frequently, may be doing the same thing.

I appreciate your feedback and debate, I also appreciate Red Marines statement, But lets just get back to the debate and discussion on thread, please. I really am just trying to help make a list of effective ways for people who have a hard time with the Seerstar. The best viable option for the army they play.

Cheers.
Spiral Ham was great, Lemon Crust pie for desert was awesome. Coffee time.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/11/29 02:42:19


2014 Templecon/Onslaught 40k T, Best overall
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2015, Nova open 40kGT Semifinalist.
2015 40k Golden Sprue Champ.
2016 Best General Portal Annual Spring 40kGT
2017 Best General, 3rd Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.
2018 Triumph 40k GT. Best Overall.
2018 Best General, 4th Annual Winter 40kGT Hosted by The Portal.



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I think the Seer Council is just there as a distraction, you should just use it as a tarpit/distraction carnifex. While the rest of your army does work. You can easily fit 4+ Wave Serpents in and two Fire Prisms, or a Wraithknight. The range on the FPs give them the advantage, especially in long-range pissing contests with Taudar.

As to fighting it; why even bother with the Fortune on? Unless you have lots of AP2 ignores cover weaponry, kill the scoring units. Without fortune, it dies pretty easily.

Seer Councils have been around since 3rd edition. Same tactics apply to them as they do now.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/29 06:35:08


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I would think any Grey Knight unit, Termies, Pallies, or Purifiers in particular, getting the charge on a seer council would be bad news bears for the council. All psykers reduced to I1 for the phase, Hammerhand so you wound on 2's, and whittle them down to a very manageable level. Of course, I'd think you'd have to position your charge carefully to try and make sure the Baron isn't in base to base for that initial phase so he can't tank the wounds.


 
   
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Powerguy wrote:

... Communion Inquisitor ...


Doesn't affect allied reserve rolls, unfortunately. See the BRB FAQ.

   
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 labmouse42 wrote:
 Sarigar wrote:
-Not getting Fortune. With 2 Farseers, I got Fortune 3 out of 7 games.
If your delving for fortune, you have a 75% of getting it in each game.

If you missed it in 4 out of 7 games -- that's just bad luck.


I did go for Fortune and didn't go to the default power until the last roll was made. However, folks need to be aware that Fortune is not guaranteed and it does change how you play the Jetseer. However, I can say with certainty that I had Death Mission in the 4 games I didn't get Fortune....fair trade

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Does the rulebook not also say thay you can allocate a wound only once. So even without FAQ'ing, once Vindy assigns the wound back to whoever you cannot LoS it again.
   
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purging philadelphia

So far my best two ways of dealing with this unit have been:

1) stubborn up the o'vesa star and charge/shoot the crap out of it for the first 2 turns. It's a huge unit so hiding all of it out of LOS is kinda tough, and if he's keeping it back hes basically begging you to eliminate his troops whether they be ejbs or wave serpents.

2) grav/missile centurions with allied buffmander. Stealth/shrouded? nah...if you're playing in indy gt faq tournaments they even allow you to take tau main with shadowsun+buffy and infiltrate that whole mess. Conversely with wolves/marines/inq you can take a combined 7 psykers (4 rune priests/tiggy/coteaz and nade caddy inq) and reliably port around the table with grav centurions with gate+servo skulls. If you dont get perfect timing on your 14 rolls on div, shame on you.

Basically tau or perfect timing ap2, best option all day.

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