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Hey Dakkanauts!

As many people know, the CSM codex is below-par (ha) aside from Nurgle Everything and Heldrakes.

I'm attempting to bring C:CSM to stand a chance against the other updated 'dexs without having to rely on these units, and to better internally balance it, eventually. (Recosting Heldrakes and MoN, or at the very least making the other marks more appealing)

There used to be a big section of the rules here, but I've re-located it to Download-Only (grew too unwieldy) vis Google Docs.

Download Link for the Codex: Chaos Space Marines Update


Thanks,
Matt.Kingsley

A 210pt Heldrake is going to really struggle to get its points back by doing its job (MEQ-hunting). Also, the thing really isn't as scary as people make out. Mine was killed by a lascannon Predator.

Fix Berserkers. Give them axes for free and give their axes Shred. As for Tzeentch psykers, would it be unreasonable for them to generate their Tzeentch power as a free extra? Because seriously, Tzeentch powers suck and there is very little to represent the Changer of Ways' supposed mastery of psychic power.

Veteran of the Long War should be Free for HQ's and Elites units, and +1ppm for the rest.

It would be also better if the LD bonus rather then just a +1 was to reroll failed Pinning, Moral or Fear checks, because you know, they have seen gak in the warp.

After all VotLW should be the chaotic version (if even soemwhat slightly worse) of ATSKNF.

For the Zerkers , has Frozen ocean said, they need a fix, not much though, just a flat +1 on their Profil, because Assault troops with 1 A base, is just moronic to no end.

Also Chainaxes be shred, should be for Heavy chain axes.

They are equiped base with chainaxes has described in the book ( S;User AP4), and then +2ppm for the Heavy chainaxe that give them shred and AP4.

Also the option for the 2 squad members that can takes Plasma pistols, to exchange also their CC weapons for special CCW, power weapons for 10pts, pair of claws for 20 and Eviscerator for 25pts.

I think the Marks have their place and can only work with specific units where it makes sense competitively.

Dont take tzeentch on normal marines, Take it on units that already have exisiting Invul saves (HQS, Daemons, Termis)

Slaneesh is really good on regular marines and decent on bikes

Nurgle is good on everything but the you have to pay the points, the points are fine the way they are.

Khorne is cheap and effective mark for all cc units.

They need to fix Thousands and bezerkers.

Zerkers dont need 2 a base they already have 4 on the charge and furious charge, Shred would a little to powerful i think auto giving them axes could fix the probably of being so bloody expensive but i think the axes are useless anyways the units youll be assaaulting that get affected by ap4 are gonna die regardless based on number of attacks and if they dont you want to be locked in that combat next turn so you can hop to the next one. If you wanna fix zerkers bring back +1 I from furious charge.

Theres too many units that do khorne bezerkers better and cheaper.

as for 1ksons i dunno what to do with them i never use em.

But giving models a 5+invul for 1 / 2 points is absurd esp on models like marines with a 3+ sv

If you want to fix zerkers... Rr charge distance, free chainaxes, done

Fix Berzerkers: +1A, Chainaxes standard.

Fix Thousand Sons: 2W, weapons are AP3, can take Heavy Bolters. All Tzeentch sorcerers can roll on any psychic power table, and the Tzeentch spells don't suck.

Fix Noise marines: They're fine.
Fix Plague Marines: They're even more fine.

Fix Daemon Princes:

Allow Tzeentch DP's to roll for psy powers on any table
Allow Nurgle DP's to get +1 T

Drop base cost by 10 pts, make PA standard.

But Plague Marines, with their Plague Knife, are better in CC than Berserkers beyond the round they charge. On top of that, they're Plague Marines; we all know how good they are at doing other things, like sitting on objectives or using special weapons.

That's why Shred. Because AP4 is useless, and Plague Marines get to re-roll Wounds the vast majority of the time (and ignore higher toughness values). Alternatively, make them I5 on the charge like they used to be, and/or allow them to re-roll charge distances (random charge range hurts a lot more than it helps).

EDIT: 3ppm for a better chance to kill Firewarriors. Yay.

EDIT2: The issue isn't that Berserkers are awful, but that they're neither good enough or interesting enough to make people actually want to take them unless they're running World Eaters. Which is a shame, really, because I loved Berserkers in the previous edition.

Ah! Responses!

@ Frozen Ocean: Point noted about the Heldrake, also like the idea of MoT making Tzeentch powers an extra generation

@ Slayer le boucher: Unsure if it should be free on all HQs... but looking at it now, 5pts is probably a bit much seeming the Ld increase is worthless.
Re-roll fear would be useless with 'Horrors in the Warp', and honestly I like the Ld bonus. Maybe I can add the re-roll morale as a Legion Trait for Renegades?

@ Guitarqero: Yes, all marks have their place I suppose... but these days all you see is Nurgle, Nurgle, Nurgle with a splash of Slaanesh here and there for Noise Marines...

@ McNinja: Agreed that PM & NM are fine. Interesting thoughts on Thousand Sons... though AP3? Could be a tad too powerful? Agreed with Heavy Bolter option. Also, Sorcers able to roll on any table was my plan for TSons Legion Traits

@ Selym: Agreed Princes need a fix, don't think allowing them access to marks is the way to got, though. I was thinking just giving them Eternal Warrior back (or maybe as an upgrade) as well as a points decrease.

@ Everyone: 'Zerkers are one of the Cult Troops I was thinking about. And, yes, I planning Chainaxes as standard, too . Shred on all is a bit much (makes the new MoK useless) and they already gain +1 A from the new mark, too. However, would giving them Rage, Counter Attack or some Assault-out-of-Vehicles rule be a good idea? Re-roll charge distances make the icon useless, something I don't want to do (I like the Khorne icon as it is). Bringing +1 I form Furious Charge could work, I suppose. Like the idea for Melee weapons option, and the idea for Heavy Chainaxes.

Still working on Legion Traits, currently. Got basic ideas down for most of them, just refining them so they aren't OP/UP.

Thanks,
Matt.Kingsley

I don't understand everyone's obsession with Heavy Bolters on Tsons.

The fix to make Tsons better is not to give them access to special/heavy weapons because they are overcosted. The fix is to drop their points.

Just for fluff, the heavy chainaxe could be similar to the Excoriator chainaxes of Forge World's World Eater Rampagers, which would make them two-handed, also.

 Brometheus wrote:
I don't understand everyone's obsession with Heavy Bolters on Tsons.

The fix to make Tsons better is not to give them access to special/heavy weapons because they are overcosted. The fix is to drop their points.

It's slightly more than that -

The Rubrics are built to want to be elite hitmen, but they're better off sitting back and waiting for some MEQ's to forget about the whole AP3 thing and meet them.

And then they get cheapo cannon fodder sent at them, making the Rubrics utterly pointless.

A better fix would involve tweaking their resistance to small-arms fire (Maybe giving them DoT, others have suggested +1W), and then allowing the Sorc to choose his powers from any Psy table, as the Tzeentch powers are effing useless.

Also because Tzeentch is supposed to be the Chaos God of shooting and psychic power, in contrast to the melee of Khorne, the toughness of Nurgle, and the speed of Slaanesh. They are supposed to represent four sets of gameplay mechanics!

Instead, we have Nurgle beating out Khorne in melee, and Slaanesh out-shooting Tzeentch!

EDIT: Actually, everyone apart from Khorne out-shoots Tzeentch at this point (as well as everyone apart from Khorne out-psychicking Tzeentch), if you include special and heavy weapons. Even Undivided!

For 140pts, you can get a 10-man CSM squad with a plasma gun. For an additional 10-20pts, you can get Heavy Bolter/Autocannon or Missile Launcher/another Plasma Gun. That's about the cost of 5 Sons. I'm ignoring flamers.

140pts
9 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun
or
8 Bolters, 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Additional Heavy Weapon or Plasma Gun.

vs

150pts
4 AP3 bolters
1 Crap Tzeentch Psychic Power
Aura of Dark Glory + Mark of Tzeentch but half as many models (and therefore, half as many wounds).

Yeah, the Cult Troops are kinda skewed when it comes to game play.

While I am mainly focusing on Legion Traits currently, I can't help but think about cult troops and how to fix them a bit...

TSons:


Zerkers:


Also, with the Champion of Chaos rule, I was thinking of making it so they only HAVE to Issue/Accept on a failed leadership test, sound good?

With that in mind, here are the basic, more refined concepts for a few of the Legion Traits:

Red Corsairs:


Renegades:


World Eaters:


Emperor’s Children:


Still unsure for Death Guard...

Need something else for Thousand Sons, but I've (pretty much) decided on the rest so far:


Night Lords:


From here, the rest are still too OP/UP (at least, that's what I think) or just don't feel right... (Iron Warriors)

But, here they are:
Alpha Legion:


Iron Warriors:


Word Bearers:


Black Legion:



Thanks,
M.K

I think being forced to take Marks might be awfully costly.

Thousand sons.

Tson/as get +1 wound Keep their 4++ but lose the ap3 bolters. Dropped to 20 ppm
These guys are not suppose to be MEQ killers, they are a meatshield for the sorc leading them

Base squad is now 120 pts (4 ts 1 as)
Option
May add up to 15 thousand sons at 20pts/Model
For ever 9 models in the squad 1 thousand son maybe upgraded to a aspiring sorcerer for +20 pts
Any Aspiring sorcerer may buy up to one additional mastery level at 10 points
The entire unit maybe upgraded with terminator armor at 18 ppm


Units with Mot may choose their their psychic powers from the pyromancy and tzeentch disciplines, (if they choose biomancy and telepathy they have to Determine randomly)

Maybe make mot give
+1 wound and +1mastery level on models with the character subtype (so a mot sorc would start with 3 wounds and ml 2 with the ability to go to ml 4), and a just +1 invul for everything else

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Heldrake-wise, thinking increasing it to 180pts and making the Baleflamer a 20-30pt upgrade?

if anything a Autocannon heldrake should cost less than it currently does. 4 shots that are likely to miss, arent terrible good at killing tanks, and arent terrible good at killing infantry. No one takes the autocannon drake because they are bad.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Marks:
Khorne
Models with Mark of Khorne have +1 Attack and the Preferred Enemy special rule.

PE is really powerful.
In shooting, it changes your chance to hit from 66% to 77%, giving you 16% more firepower before you take into account rerolling to wound
It makes it almost impossible to hurt yourself with a plasmagun.
It transfers from a character to a unit.
It would make MoK the default choice for Havocs and other shooting units.

I would suggest toning it down. The simplest ways of the top of my head:
1) PE in combat, no bonus in shooting
2) Models with MoK and hatred reroll their combat to hit rolls every round, not just the first round.

We should also find a way to fix warp talons, i also agree that heldrakes should go up in points when buying the baleflamer. I like your marks, and the night lord stuff keep up the good work.

@ Frozen Ocean: Yes, but it is only for 4 legions, and they are dedicated to one God.

@ Ninjacommando: I don't quite agree with some things (extra sorcerers, termi armour) nor allowing lvl 3 aspiring sorcerers in a squad for everyone (stacked with your version of MoT + lvl upgrade)
How about this, Inferno Bolts give Ignores Cover as standard. The unit can then be upgraded with Sorcerous bolts for AP3?

@ Exergy: Ehh, I suppose I see what you mean about Hade-Drakes.
I wanted to make MoK more useful for shooty units. I do see where you are going about it being a bit too powerful, though. Still not convinced, however.
Worse case, I make it cost more for Havocs,

@ Slayer222: Thanks for the kind words! Yep, Warp Talons are also part of the long fixing list. Aside from grenades (or similar ability) and a points-decrease, is there anything else that should be done to them?

Thanks,
M.K

@ Matt, Squad Aspiring champions are only ment to go up to ML 2 (kind of like how it says in the codex "X is already included in the units profile).

keeping the restrctions of 1 power from the tzeentch table (you get to pick) and one from pyro (you choose), tele (you roll), or Bio (you roll) Would make them stronger than they are now.

ATM you are paying 65 points for a ML 1 psyker that doesnt do gak

Rubric marines are suppose to be meatshields, they are empty shells. Thousand sons do not need AP 3 bolters ever regular CSM do a better job at killing MEQ with bolters only (seeing as every MEq unit camps cover) point for point.

Every Cult/Legion troop is suppose to be unique,

Zerkers = Assaulting stuff (need to be buffed to be better at it)
Noise = assaulting stuff or Blowing stuff away with Salvo weapons (good where they are) (do what Tsons do but better)
Plague = Being tough and having 2 special weapons (great unit) (do what Tsons do but better)
ATM Tsons = ap 3 bolters and a crap sorc (hellturkey does everything you do only 1000x better)
having Tsons changed to = Tought meatshield Sorc delivery Squad, actually makes them feel unique. (no longer trying to do what a hellturkey does, now they are for the people who want to play the Sorc Army, like Tsons is suppose to be)


Terminator armor is a throw back from 3.5 codex and from fluff. If you werent a psychic you became dust. (its also an incentive for people to field 2 wound, 4++ termies that only cost 38ppm.)

Also ment to tack on
The entire unit maybe upgraded with terminator armor at 18 ppm - units upgraded this way will always be taken as elite choice

If you wanted to play renegades spacemarines that are devoted to Tzeetnch, you get regualr CSM squads (with the champion becoming a ML 1 psyker) or cultists (with the champion becoming an ML 1 pskyer)

and that one power they can choose would be from Tzeetnch table.

@ Ninjacommando: Ah, ok. That's better than. (However my TSons legion Trait could bring that up to 3...)

Also, your version of MoT would cost 35points for Characters (+10 for extra wound, +25 for additional mastery level)


Honestly, Aspiring Sorcerers should cost 60-65 pts, +15 for force weapon, +25 for mastery level. Normal Tz marine SHOULD cost 20ish pts.

I see where you are going now with the Termi Amour, however every cult troop could have the same argument.
So if I do add the termi armour option, I'll do it for ALL cult troops.



I suggested changing stock AP3 to an upgrade for those that DO want AP3 bolters, while those that don't can be content without them.

Also, I've pretty much decided that MoT will (in addition to the ++ save) make psykers generate an extra power from lore of Tz (ML1 will have 2 powers, 1 of which is Tz, ML2 will have 3 powers, 1 from Tz etc.) Though should I make it so they can also choose to use Tz as their base lore? ML3 knowing all Tz powers!

The Force weapons and mastery level mean nothing on a Aspiring sorceror atm.
you pay 65 points for a Guy thats not suppose to be in melee and has a random power from a Gak tree.

5 points for MOT would be fine across the board. (even with the +1 ML and wound for characters) because you have to pay for the squad, if you want to take MSU to get more psykers on the field go for it, just makes them easier to remove.

Another reason for the + 1 ML.. why do Sorcs of Slaanesh and Nurgle get the same ML as a Sorc of Tzeentch? you know the god of change/sorcery/hope ETC.

Paying 50 ppm (4o ppm fora 2wound ml 1 and then 10 more for the ML upgrade) for a ml 2 2 wound sorc is a fair price

This is an edition where AP3/2 weapons are spammed on every list and lists that don't spam them spam high Str shots out the wazoo.


The AP 3 bolters would still server no purpose and be an unused upgrade :/ let the sorcs do the blasting,

Allowing a model with MOT to Choose a power from Tzeentch/Pyro (with the requirement that 1 power always has to be from the Tzeentch tree) and then making them roll if they choose Bio/Tele would be fine.

All cult troops should have the option to take Terminator armour (but then they retain the elite spot), (Think of noise marines upgraded to Terminators each with a sonic blaster and a power weapon)

You may not like the idea of AP3 bolters (tbh, I don't overly care about them either) but it is nice to have options.
5 points would NOT be fine for ICs. for infantry, yes, but not ICs.

1 mastery level is NOT worth 10 pts. Every book has it as 25pts. Force weapon may go unused 99/100 times, but they still have it. I'm inclined to make it an upgrade, though. (Again, next to no one would take it, but options are good)

Cherry picking powers, even from 2 terrible lores, does seem like a good idea.

Point taken for lvl 4 psykers, but I don't think MoT is the way to go for that.

Anyway, I'll probably be adjusting the chaos lores anyway.

With the above to get 2 rolls in Biomancy/tele you would be spending 240 points (9 guys)
you currently spend ~249 pts for 9 guys that do very litte.

5 points would be fine for IC's (Limit MOT to Sorc and DP only, why would lord/DA/WS would dedicate themselves to tzeentch?)

70 pts to start with a 3 wound ml 2 sorc is fine, (Ml 4 would cost 120)

Also for other units, Make the Fiends in Heavy support MCs. they are pointless as walkers

5pts for what would usually cost you 35pts? no, it is not fine. it's way underpriced!

 Ninjacommando wrote:
Thousand sons ... are not suppose to be MEQ killers, they are a meatshield for the sorc leading them

Thiiiiis. They're animated suits of armour, but the most defining feature on the tabletop is a random ability to shoot AP3 bullets?

I'd prefer a re-worked version of their older rules;

~Living Metal: When attacking Thousand Sons, use the weapons AP value rather than it's strength to determine it's to-wound roll. For instance, a weapon with AP3 would wound on a 3+, while a weapon with AP - cannot hurt them. Apply the AP value against their armour save as per usual.

Eldar ATM pay less per mastery level than any other army

25 points gets you +1 ws, bs, w, ld, and a mastery level
And access to the telepathy tree,
30 more points (55) gets you + 1 wound, ld, mastery level divination and a ghost helm.

What eldar get for 100 points
Costs chaos 115 points but chaos has to roll on a crap tree

at 115 for the farseer you now have a jetbike character flying across the board being useful ( and the farseer still has the one wound over the sorc)

@ Dakkamite: So, basically the opposite of Grav Weapons? Sounds cool! However ap- doing nothing is a bit too good... I'd rework it to AP - & 6 means a 6+ to wound and AP 1 & 2 means a 2+ to wound. If I went down this path I probably wouldn't give them an extra wound, though.

@ Ninjacommando: Eldar are the (OP) exception, not the norm. Bringing Sorcerers in line with Farseers would do the opposite of what I want...

Ok, then, I've thought about Tsons a bit more and I'm thinking of going down the AP=wound roll route. If I do indeed go down this route then the Legion Trait for Tsons will give everyone this rule.

Was thinking about maybe adding an ability similar to channeling in fantasy for the TSons legion trait, but I'm unsure if I should.

So, how's this?

Legion of Dust


This way, they are more resilient to small firearms while still having a similar resilience against most AP 1-3 weapons (though they are a bit weaker to a few, like power weapons but oh well)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Ok, then, I've thought about Tsons a bit more and I'm thinking of going down the AP=wound roll route. If I do indeed go down this route then the Legion Trait for Tsons will give everyone this rule.

Was thinking about maybe adding an ability similar to channeling in fantasy for the TSons legion trait, but I'm unsure if I should.

So, how's this?

Legion of Dust

Spoiler:

The warriors of the Thousand Sons Legion are implacable foes, little more than animated suits of armour. They are far more durable than the Chaos Space Marines of their brother legions - a plasma blast or powered blade may tear a Thousand Son's armour wide open to negligible effect.
The roll required needed To Wound when attacking a model with the Legion of Dust special rule is always equal to the AP of the weapon firing to a minimum of a 6+ and a maximum of a 2+. The weapon's strength is still used to determine Instant Death.

This way, they are more resilient to small firearms while still having a similar resilience against most AP 1-3 weapons (though they are a bit weaker to a few, like power weapons but oh well)

Looks good to me