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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
To be fair, Gorechild was Angron's handaxe. I do not doubt that Daemon Prince-Khârn could use it as well... And same thing with certain rather large weapons that CSM use.
And for the record, I don't agree with "normal" Champions being better than SM Sergeants. What the Champion gains in slight experience they lose in discipline and camraderie. Champions in cult troops squads, on the other hand, ought to be better than they are.
Champions keep their warbands together through fear and intimidation, if necessary they have to kill any challengers from their own ranks. They should absolutely be above sergeant. Cult troop champions and normal CSM champions perform exactly the same role.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
Because deamon prince are still Champions, and that for their whole life and for their whole new Deamon life, they sought after artifacts to make them more powerfull.
So having a Axe Lord that just throw away a deamon Weapon because he change in a Deamon prince, there is the thing that doesn't make any sens.
Now you could argue that in the case of some that would make them too powerfull, and then i will point you to Sm Chapter Masters, who can be on a bike, with an Eternal Shield and a Blazing Blade, between the DP and the CM, wich is more dangerous?..., yup you guessed right, the CM makes little french fries with the DP, and that doesn't make any sens at all.
So Having a Deamon Kharn(for exemple), that the only thing that the deamonification would bring to him is a Higher T and Init isn't that much worse, you've got even worse for being a Dprince, you are still not a EW model, you loose the MoK to become a Deamon of Khorne, wich is the lamest upgrade for a Deamon and you are a footslogging MC that can move 6" each turn, but can't be in a bodyguard unit, and so can be taken target by every single ranged weapons that has a 24" range.
Also really?, arguing about the size of the weapons and wargear when a Marine turned ina freakin Giant with horns and that his armore fused with his body?
His gear simply will mutate along with him.
A good exemple why this is stupid is that in fantasy a Lord or Champion that turns into a DPrince keep ALL his wargear, rules, spells and Mastery lvls, now yes he counts as a casualty , but i honestly think that this is a small price for Deamonhood.
Also something that doesn't make sens, being turned into a DeamonPrince is supposed to be your God greatest reward, so why kharn( again first example that comes to mind) would loose the Blessing of the Blood God?...
he gets Blessed by the Blood God for being his greatest Champion and Killer, to be only topped by the Skulltaker( in fluff at leats, in rulls the Skulltaker sucks), Doombreed and Angron, but when being given the highest reward he loose his Lord Blessing?...
Its like giving a SM the opportunity to get a direct reward from the Emperor, but he loose ATSKNF rule..., does it make any sens to you?
Now yes the easiest way would be to simply add a rule to special IC's something like " Dark Destiny; the Chaos gods have plans for this individual, his time for Deamonhood hasn't come yet; the character must ignore and reroll the Dark Apotheosis result on the chaos Boons chart".
But then the problem would still be the same for Lords and Sorcerors anyway.
@ Everyone: Well, I suppose there's no point in me trying to resist. I still don't agree, but I'll make it so DPs keep all previous wargear and rules...
@ BrotherHaraldus: tbh, I hadn't really thought too much about Icons. One thing I have decided on is giving them back the no-scatter DS bubble. Thinking of bringing personal icons back, too.
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Matt.Kingsley wrote: @ Everyone: Well, I suppose there's no point in me trying to resist. I still don't agree, but I'll make it so DPs keep all previous wargear and rules...
@ BrotherHaraldus: tbh, I hadn't really thought too much about Icons. One thing I have decided on is giving them back the no-scatter DS bubble. Thinking of bringing personal icons back, too.
Not all wargear and rules. Let them choose to keep a weapon if they wish.
Or I don't know, actually. Just giving them Wings would maybe solve it.
The issue with icons is that, well... They are often bad. Fear is commonly useless while Soul Blaze is very, very weak.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/05 00:55:02
The 2 Icons that really need a change are Nurgle and tzeentch...
Nurgle could be Stealth for the Flies that buzz around, or better FnP...
Tzeentch its always hard to find the right thing...
Maybe Psykers in a unit with a Tzeentch Icon reroll failed Psy test or gets an extra Warp charge, while non-psyker models gets to reroll ONE dice in each phase per unit, urgh dunno..;doesn't seems to make much sens...
or maybe make the icon count has a Psychic Hood?...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Yeah, I was planning to make it so Special Characters couldn't be transformed, always bugged me that they could!
Also, why would they be able to keep the wargear? It would be too small for them to use!
EDIT: Just realised I'm missing the 5th option on both charts, need to fix that.
Because deamon prince are still Champions, and that for their whole life and for their whole new Deamon life, they sought after artifacts to make them more powerfull.
So having a Axe Lord that just throw away a deamon Weapon because he change in a Deamon prince, there is the thing that doesn't make any sens.
Now you could argue that in the case of some that would make them too powerfull, and then i will point you to Sm Chapter Masters, who can be on a bike, with an Eternal Shield and a Blazing Blade, between the DP and the CM, wich is more dangerous?..., yup you guessed right, the CM makes little french fries with the DP, and that doesn't make any sens at all.
So Having a Deamon Kharn(for exemple), that the only thing that the deamonification would bring to him is a Higher T and Init isn't that much worse, you've got even worse for being a Dprince, you are still not a EW model, you loose the MoK to become a Deamon of Khorne, wich is the lamest upgrade for a Deamon and you are a footslogging MC that can move 6" each turn, but can't be in a bodyguard unit, and so can be taken target by every single ranged weapons that has a 24" range.
Also really?, arguing about the size of the weapons and wargear when a Marine turned ina freakin Giant with horns and that his armore fused with his body?
His gear simply will mutate along with him.
A good exemple why this is stupid is that in fantasy a Lord or Champion that turns into a DPrince keep ALL his wargear, rules, spells and Mastery lvls, now yes he counts as a casualty , but i honestly think that this is a small price for Deamonhood.
Also something that doesn't make sens, being turned into a DeamonPrince is supposed to be your God greatest reward, so why kharn( again first example that comes to mind) would loose the Blessing of the Blood God?...
he gets Blessed by the Blood God for being his greatest Champion and Killer, to be only topped by the Skulltaker( in fluff at leats, in rulls the Skulltaker sucks), Doombreed and Angron, but when being given the highest reward he loose his Lord Blessing?...
Its like giving a SM the opportunity to get a direct reward from the Emperor, but he loose ATSKNF rule..., does it make any sens to you?
Now yes the easiest way would be to simply add a rule to special IC's something like " Dark Destiny; the Chaos gods have plans for this individual, his time for Deamonhood hasn't come yet; the character must ignore and reroll the Dark Apotheosis result on the chaos Boons chart".
But then the problem would still be the same for Lords and Sorcerors anyway.
The shorter argument is that the chaos artefacts can currently be taken by a DP and/or a CL. So scale/power is not really an issue to bother with.
And for the record, I don't agree with "normal" Champions being better than SM Sergeants. What the Champion gains in slight experience they lose in discipline and camraderie. Champions in cult troops squads, on the other hand, ought to be better than they are.
Champions keep their warbands together through fear and intimidation, if necessary they have to kill any challengers from their own ranks. They should absolutely be above sergeant. Cult troop champions and normal CSM champions perform exactly the same role.
And Veteran Sergeants are good enough to get into the 1st Company of their Chapter. They're good enough to be a Vanguard or Sternguard Veteran. They're the best of the best in the Chapter apart from the Chapter Command itself.
The reason I felt that Cult Champions ought to be better is because they're essentially "Chosen", in that they're the Champion of their God and obviously further along their path than a "normal" Champion. As such, they'll already have recieved some minor boons from their patron, not enough to appear on the Boon Table but enough to give them an edge.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Yeah, now I feel silly for forgetting to mention them.
And Chaos Terminator Champions!
Why them though? They've managed to get their hands on Terminator Armour, but that doesn't mean they are better than anyone else, unlike the Loyalist counterparts who only hand it out to the best.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Yeah, now I feel silly for forgetting to mention them.
And Chaos Terminator Champions!
Why them though? They've managed to get their hands on Terminator Armour, but that doesn't mean they are better than anyone else, unlike the Loyalist counterparts who only hand it out to the best.
It means that they've beaten another terminator for the armour, and, given that CSM armour tends to meld with the flesh, also had to practically flay the other terminator.
Meaning they're tough enough to beat up a termie whilst not wearing any termie armour. And are then tough enough to defend it. So they're probably more deserving than a loyalist terminator,
The 2 Icons that really need a change are Nurgle and tzeentch...
Nurgle could be Stealth for the Flies that buzz around, or better FnP...
Tzeentch its always hard to find the right thing...
Maybe Psykers in a unit with a Tzeentch Icon reroll failed Psy test or gets an extra Warp charge, while non-psyker models gets to reroll ONE dice in each phase per unit, urgh dunno..;doesn't seems to make much sens...
or maybe make the icon count has a Psychic Hood?...
I think the Stealth thing for Nurgle is a bit over-played, but the cloud of flies is a good angle to take. How about enemies have to re-roll overwatch hits against the unit, and the unit always counts as being in difficult terrain if you're trying to charge it? A little bit of encouragement to do something with your plague marines besides camp a home objective.
For the Tzeentch icon, psychic hood is a great idea. Then make the Tzeentch icon the only one that acts as a locator beacon, or maybe a universal locator beacon while the others only work for units with the same mark.
Battlefleet Gothic ships and markers at my store, GrimDarkBits:
Yeah the Reroll Overwatch and count has terrain for Nurgle could be good.
Or reroll succesfull Overwatch hits and count has having defensive grenades?
Yeah the beacon power of the icons should be back on all of them.
Its something rather silly and hilarious, that the only army after Demons, that stay his whole time in the warp, can't make precision DS, while a lot of other armies just can...
No, I don't have 1 document... I have 2.
Been uploading from different computers and writing down the rules one which ever one I'm on.
The laptop I'm using now had most of the later rules saved in a word dock, while my desktop has the first few rules.
In other news changing mark/devotion of khorne again! Instead of PE in X", I'm changing it to re-roll all To-Wound rolls of a 1, suits khorne more, hey?
Also, with the Warlord traits, I think I'll be keeping 3 of them (well... the basis of 3). Exalted Champion, Master of Deception and Black Crusader will be staying, however Black Crusader will be changing to PE (Everyone), and Exalted Champion will gain an extra roll on the Power table.
Still thinking of the other 3 warlord traits... and I'm kinda stuck...
The Living Dust wounding on ap must be reworked i think. What about armies that don't have many low ap-weapons. Like orks or ig gunline. What about changing the limits to best: 3+, worst 5+. Cause generally, wounding on 6+ can totally wreck a number of lists. And with wounding on 5+ they're allready like t5.
On the whole, i like the spirit of this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, word bearer's buffs are over the top.
What about just allowing to get Gift of mutation for regular characters for 5 pts and Independent characters + daemon princes (iirc he's not independent) can get a second Gift of mutation for 5 pts, thus 2 gifts for 15 pts.
Zealot for all is definitely over-the top.
And a free upgrade of an apostle's stats to a Chaos lord cept for initiative are way too much. Apostle is basically a better chaos variant of a chaplain.
Chaos lord + power weapon + sigil = 105 pts = Apostle - so it's just a trade of 1 wound, 1 bs, 1ws, 1 ini for Zealot + ld10 aura + rerolls of gifts on attached characters.
Maybe it could be good to allow rerolls armywide.
Nurgle upgrade to a vehicle is bad. Noone will pay so much for an iwnd.
Now it could be used as a +1 av on all the sides and making a vehicle type Heavy for 40-50 extra points. Can't exceed av14. So you could get 14-12-11 predators.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/21 12:01:16
Also, i've tried out 2 squads of possessed - it was a fun game...at least i intended it to be so...cause my list contained Apostle, footslogging Sorc, (10+champ) x 2 squads of possessed where one champ had 2 gifts of mutation, and a hell lot of cultists, 2 smaller squads with autoguns and a large blob without weaponry. And the enemy was tau with a forgeworld rapetide that shoots 4 s6-8 ap3 pieplates per turn - yep, FUN is understood differently by different people, he also wanted to go 4 riptides and a hell lot of markers to ignore everything and win by turn 3... Don't know how the game would have ended cause i had to go by the beginning of turn 3 and i had a few possessed left and almost unharmed cultists with the relic. And i forced him to go backwards a bit so if the cultists manage to withstand all his firepower till the endgame - they'll even win Good that there's a huge losblock in the middle of the map so that some of them can avoid a rapetide for a few turns.
Anywayz, at the current state of possessed, i feel that hey're one of the worst choices ever. 5++, fleet and fearless is nice but not nearly enough to make them work for how much they cost. Actually, they're not very frightening in mellee even with str5 and 2 base attacks. Don't think anyone will take them as troops at their current state.
If they were around 15-18 pts, they'd be more apealing. I know, that sounds not very much for their statline, but they'll never pay off anywayz. Or they need to be tougher and have fnp. If they had t5 and fnp they'd have some use even with the current cost. Still better to take plague marines - they're not worse in mellee and can shoot also.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/22 06:41:05
Aye, possessed are going to be changed, mainly with a points decrease (probably end up around the 18-19 mark, but I'll get more into them later)
I've been unsure on WB since I first started this, but I didn't get much input about them (which I do understand) however:
1- Is Zealot of Characters really that powerful? they are already fearless so is hatred really that much extra?
2- I agree that the boons may be a bit powerful, though it was written before the new table and I didn't write it the way I should have.
Would rolling a a smaller, different table (with less powerful effects) be better, or I just scrap the whole gift thing for them and do something else? (re-rolls like you suggested or other?)
3- Understood with the DA, thugh he is the Word Bearer's 'Special Thing'
with the nurgle upgrade, it was essentially a copy-paste from the old Decimator experimental rules, including the cost.
Is legion really that powerful, though? Those armies have a lot of shots. But if it really is then I'll work on it.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Aye, possessed are going to be changed, mainly with a points decrease (probably end up around the 18-19 mark, but I'll get more into them later)
I've been unsure on WB since I first started this, but I didn't get much input about them (which I do understand) however:
1- Is Zealot of Characters really that powerful? they are already fearless so is hatred really that much extra?
2- I agree that the boons may be a bit powerful, though it was written before the new table and I didn't write it the way I should have.
Would rolling a a smaller, different table (with less powerful effects) be better, or I just scrap the whole gift thing for them and do something else? (re-rolls like you suggested or other?)
3- Understood with the DA, thugh he is the Word Bearer's 'Special Thing'
with the nurgle upgrade, it was essentially a copy-paste from the old Decimator experimental rules, including the cost.
Is legion really that powerful, though? Those armies have a lot of shots. But if it really is then I'll work on it.
1. Yes, Zealot is a really good buff. It actually makes apostle + cultists rather decent in mellee! It's fun, but i had an apostle killing nightbringer - a regular one with 4 wounds, t7 and 4++ - in a challenge. Nightbringer charged apostle with 27 cultists and went for s10 strikes to try to insta-kill. Cultists provided 5 rerolls and 4++ rerollable is rather good, while rerolling to-hitsin the first round and to-wounds with cultist's help forced 2 unsaved wounds on a nightbringer. The next phase apostle finished nightbringer off. Yep, that's an exceptional situation but cultists with apostle are capable of killing some wraiths on a charge. And that's something. Just imagine if you get such perk on every lord/sorc with bikers and spawns. That'd be too op for a free buff.
Re-rolling to-hitsof a 5+ make it 0.556 up from 0.33, re-rolling 4+ make it 0.75 up from 0.5, re-rolling 3+ make it 0.889 up from 0.667. So, it's a strong force multiplier. And don't forget fearless.
2. Current gifts are oki. Like 50% of them are not very useful. But they can be a breakpoint. Like the time i rolled +1 armor for a biker sorc and he ate most firepower with 5+ fnp. Or when i rolled crusader for a possessed champion allowing a better run with rerolls to fleet. Or when you get shrouded or something...but half the time you get something like +1 ws, hammer of wrath on a biker lord or hatered on apostle that allready has it. So i think it's generally a nice random and fun thing but it mustn't be given for free. Though, current poit value makes it apear only on indeps while it'd be fun to see more mutated champions. So that's why i proposed a 5 pt value and a possibility to reroll result armywise, though, it might be a bit too much. What about d3 rerolls total?
Just 30 pts for iwnd...noone will ever take it on a vehicle cause they're usually shot down in 1 turn if focused.
Yep, wounding on 6-s instead of 4+ for such armieas as orkses that pack ap6 shooting is a huge blow. They'd be literally unkillable cause nobz with ap2 will be downed in challenges. I'd just have to avoid or tarpit rubrics for the whole game cause i don't really have any chances of killing them. There are lots of weapons with better strength and worse ap than the opposite.
AC wounding on 4+ instead of 2+, ML wounding on 3+ instead of 2+, every HoW attack wounding on 6+ instead of 3+/4+...etc. U see, lower str weapons with better ap is rather an exception...Let's see what can we remember...hot-shot lazguns/lazpistols, rending weaponry, smite, sternguard's special issue ammunition and rubrics themselves. That's basically it. Anywayz, i agree that rubrics need a buff. But probably wounding on ap would be too huge and gamebreaking if it goes to 6+. While 5+ would be manageble. U want them to keep that 4++ also? So, let's count wounds dealt with common weaponry with what you propose.
The ammount of unsaved wounds with every hit:
Plazma, Melta, Lazcannon, Rapetide pieplates: was 0.417, becomes 0.417
Missile launcher, Rokkit: was 0.417, becomes 0.333
Autocannon, Loota'z gun: was 0.278, becomes 0.167
Heavy bolter: was 0.222, becomes 0.167
Big shoota, Pulse rifle: was 0.222, becomes 0.111
Bolter: was 0.167, becomes 0.111
Shoota: was 0.167, becomes 0.055
Lazgun: was 0.111, becomes 0.055
Multi-laser and Deaff-Rolla: was 0.278, becomes 0.055
See, it's like 2 times better survivability vs most commonly seen high-str ap4 shots, like 50% better against most common s4 ap5 weapons, 3 times better vs shootaboyz and 2 times better vs lazguns...and 5 times better vs a multilaser, though it's an odd weapon in the first place While remaining the same against plazma and lazcanoons. It's gona help alot vs serpentshields but i think that shields should be totally reworked or removed cause they're gamebreaking.
So to kill a single rubric i have to shoot... 54-55 shots with my shootaboyz at it. So i'll just have to tarpit them for the whole game cause it's just 2 times better than facing a screamerstar - an those guyz cost 5 times more and need alot of support. Still everyone hates them.
This rule will just give too much durability vs small guns without rending (and eldar will be fine once again) and be at the same lvl vs ap2 spam which is so common now and annoying. So it's breaking the game more than fixing it.
I think it'd be just better to make them something like legion of the damned. Give them ignore cover and ability to take spetial weaponry...and probably deepstrike. And they'd be playable even with the current cost.
4++ instead of 3++, but have psyker and ap3. On the second thought, they can even get a bit more expensive and still function if the rubric sorc gets something more useful than Tzeench powers.
This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2014/01/22 10:23:23
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
Hatred are rerolls to hit, not to wound, and only the first round of combat. Zealot still confers it to the entire squad, which is good, but your Apostle would be wounding on 5+ and would then have to pierce a 4++. He need to get 24 hits to do that, or a good deal over 40 attacks even with Hatred.
The odds are not in his favour.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/22 09:18:09
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Hatred are rerolls to hit, not to wound, and only the first round of combat. Zealot still confers it to the entire squad, which is good, but your Apostle would be wounding on 5+ and would then have to pierce a 4++. He need to get 24 hits to do that, or a good deal over 40 attacks even with Hatred.
The odds are not in his favour.
Yep, sorry, messed it up a bit - i rerolled everything with cultists and hatred, even so, rerolls to-hits of 4+ is 0.75 up from 0.5 which is once again a 25% effectiveness increase.
I know that beating Nightbringer by apostle seems unlikely and i allready said goodbye to an apostle, but than suddenly...BAM: 2 wounds to Nightbringer, 0 to Apostle, Next turn: 1 wound to Nightbringer, 0 to apostle. Nightbringer had 3 wounds cause a hellbrute managed to cause an unsaved wound over 2 phases with a multi-melta.
If you mathhammer this very combat, you can see that:
Nightbringer with 3 smash attacks on charge: 1.5[hits] * 5/6[to wound] * 1/4[rerollable 4++] = 31% chance of a dead apostle...if you go for a mark of Tzeench - 14% of a dead apostle. Also, there's a HoW hit but let's not count it now cause it has decent chance of being saved with 3+ rerollable.
Apostle with 3 attacks: 2.25[hits with rerolls] * 5/9[to wound with rerolls] * 1/2 [4++] = 62.5% to deal 1 wound. And my apostle had +1 attack cause of a gift.
So, a regular apostle with cultists without any good boons and 3++ has decent chances of killing C'Tan shards. And if he gets some combat-oriented gifts or, say, MoT...he'd have an upper hand. Not even telling about fighting with some artifacts like a black mace.
All in all, i don't think that giving fearless and rerolls to-hit for free is a way to go.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/22 10:47:56
Well, all the traits make them fearless (except for the renegade and red corsair one), but they must purchase VotLW.
re-rolls to hit in the first round of combat isn't that bad for a entire army, especially when the bonus is conferred mainly by 1 W characters, especially AS I am going to remove the traits thing and probably replace it with a small buff for D3 units.
Sure, zealot beatstick lord + cultists will = death to all lone characters and lone charatcer MCs, but it is slow and unwieldly + costs a lot, it should be easy to dodge., and even without zealot that will = death to every lone character.
Aha, cool. Thanks, i kinda never use forgeworld stuff myself.
Anywayz, returning to the word bearer's issue and 1000 sonz.
Zealot for all indeps is too much. Making possessed troops is pointless with their current profile. If you buff them to be more liek daemonettes, they might work. Rending + 3' extra run and a bit lowr cost. Maybe, if you add rending their str should go down to 4. I'd be glad to recieve 3+, 5++ fleet, 3' extra run, 2 attacks, rending, fearless marines for around 20-22 pts. And disallow them embarking on vehicles.
I've written my opinion on 1000 son'z wounding on ap thing. And that if you apply it - they'll just get super-survivable vs small arms and remain the same against annoying pie-plates that still do the same ammount of damage. If you still want to go this way - cap it at 3+ max save, 5+ min save. That'll ballance things out a bit. Anywayz, when i feel that the unit needs more durability - i usually just go for something like fnp. Cause it's a working mechanics that's not gamebreaking at all. It's just some reliable extra durability which doesn't change things too much. For 3+ it goes from 0.666 saves to 0.777 saves and for 4+ from 0.5 to 0.666. Though, for thousand sons it literally makes their armor count somewhat like 2.5+ and invul like 3++ vs anything < s8... So they must cost accordingly.
Anywayz, as i've said, maybe just make them like legion of the damned but with 4++ and ap3?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/23 05:48:41
5000 
Good that there's a huge losblock in the middle of the map so that some of them can avoid a rapetide for a few turns.
