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Now I'm relatively new to tau and was wondering why everyone takes pathfinders over a large marker drone units with a commander w drone controller and target lock.
To me taking pathfinders doesn't make sense when you can take 12 BS5 marker drones...
Please enlighten me

Why not both?

I'd try 2 x 7 Pathfinders and the Drone Commander with 6 Marker Drones.

Iranna.

Because marker drones require you to spend one of your HQ slots to make them work effectively, while pathfinders don't.

 Peregrine wrote:
Because marker drones require you to spend one of your HQ slots to make them work effectively, while pathfinders don't.

Indeed.

Other reasons to take pathfinders over drones in my opinion.

*Can take heavy weapons
*Can take/have grenades
*Don't require an HQ slot to be feasible (as mentioned above)
*Can take a Transport
*Can take special drones (they don't see much use but have come in handy a few times)
*Can also shoot if they need to
*Are cooler looking (doesn't have a bearing on functionality but still plays a part for me)
*Cheaper on a per model basis
*Have Scout USR (can argue JSJ is better but is still handy for getting that positional relay across the table in a hurry with a transport if you need to)
*Can be joined by Darkstrider (takes up an HQ but isn't mandatory and he's fun to use)
*They don't float above cover giving your opponent LoS

Those are my reasons for it anyway

always get pathfinders first.

as for drones always go for gun drones. back in 4th, 5th and still in 6th they will surprise you.

Brutal Viking wrote:
Other reasons to take pathfinders over drones in my opinion.

*Can take heavy weapons
*Can take/have grenades
*Don't require an HQ slot to be feasible (as mentioned above)
*Can take a Transport
*Can take special drones (they don't see much use but have come in handy a few times)
*Can also shoot if they need to
*Are cooler looking (doesn't have a bearing on functionality but still plays a part for me)
*Cheaper on a per model basis
*Have Scout USR (can argue JSJ is better but is still handy for getting that positional relay across the table in a hurry with a transport if you need to)
*Can be joined by Darkstrider (takes up an HQ but isn't mandatory and he's fun to use)
*They don't float above cover giving your opponent LoS

Those are my reasons for it anyway

This is what I was looking for. Cheers
Are marker drones still feasable though? I just like the idea of 12 bs5 markers every turn

I don't much about marker drones but pathfinders seems to be one of the main reasons Tau are so good.

Pathfinders or Marker drones?

Simple. Tetras.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Pathfinders or Marker drones?

Simple. Tetras.

Eh?

Oh right... These things

I think Marker Drones (Fast Attack choice) are far better than Pathfinders.

- higher T, better armour (this is especially important in Tau vs Tau matchups where SMS absolutely devastate Pathfinders.)

- JSJ means you may not even be able to target them

Sure, you get less and they are less accurate, but in my playtesting good players knock out Pathfinders pretty early, whereas they may never get the chance vs Marker Drones. This means you may only get 1-2 rounds of Pathfinder support, whereas Marker Drones tend to last most of the game.

Pathfinders through and through...

Just look at the point per marker light comparison:

two 6 man pathfinder teams come in at a total of 132 points and with BS 3 will average 3 markers on 2 different units each turn. Averaging 22 points per marker

two drone squadron of 6 Drones each costs 168 points and with BS 2 will average 2 markers on 2 different targets per turn. Averaging 42 points per marker

If you add a Mark'o commander to a drone squad (93 points as a baseline) it will raise the BS of the drones to 5. A 12 drone squad joined by Mark'o commander will average 10 marker lights at a SINGLE target at a cost of 26.1 points per marker still higher than the pathfinders and NOT able to allocate lights between targets like the two separate squads of Pathfinders.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the argument about the longevity of Pathfinders, I've come to the conclusion that they are not meant to survive (heck the Codex talks about about the high death rate among Pathfinder Teams). As I have come to realization that they are usually VERY high on my opponents target priority I run two small 5-6 Pathfinder teams forcing them to dedicate two units in removing 55-66 point units early on in the game. Ultimately if I can get two turns of Markerlght support I'm very satisfied with what they brought to the table. Additionally the pathfinders often draw forces to them early on allowing your big guns on the back line to know where they are going and open up ala the Kauyon strategy.

Tau Armies have a lot of toys that confer a lot of benefits that Markerlights do. To name a few:

A Buff commander with CCN, MSSS or PEN
Twin-linked weapons especially on broadsides
Long strike lurking in a Hammerhead
Sheer Volume of fire thanks to Fire blades or Ethereal hanging out with some firewarriors

So personally I have come to expect minimal marker light support from turn 3 onward.

 DocCheech17 wrote:
Pathfinders through and through...

Just look at the point per marker light comparison:

two 6 man pathfinder teams come in at a total of 132 points and with BS 3 will average 3 markers on 2 different units each turn. Averaging 22 points per marker

two drone squadron of 6 Drones each costs 168 points and with BS 2 will average 2 markers on 2 different targets per turn. Averaging 42 points per marker

If you add a Mark'o commander to a drone squad (93 points as a baseline) it will raise the BS of the drones to 5. A 12 drone squad joined by Mark'o commander will average 10 marker lights at a SINGLE target at a cost of 26.1 points per marker still higher than the pathfinders and NOT able to allocate lights between targets like the two separate squads of Pathfinders.

This is an obvious reason to go pathfinders
I'm liking the look of one drone unit and one pathfinder unit (6 man for each)

If you want to use drones I've found they work best on MP crisis teams joined by a commander. Every member will need a target lock though or you end up obliterating the unit you marked and wasting 5+MLs

Build would look something like this

Commander- 142
Airbursting Fragmentation projector
Target Lock
Vectored retro-thrusters
drone controller
2x marker drones

Crisis Team- 243
6x missile pod
3x Target Lock
6x Marker Drones

total 385pts

it gives you just over 6MLs a turn on a unit and JSJ and frees up your fast attack for other stuff like sun sharks (cause no one ever expects tau to bring flyers) or whatever else you want. The downside of course is that can't benifit from those lights but changing the commanders weapon to a flamer and drop target lock off him then you can take a CnC node which should help with that. It's expensive but if I was going to run marker drones that's how I would do it.

I'm a little biased though. I'm not a big fan of drones since they cause Ld tests for some silly reason and if I was going to run a drone squad with a commander I'd rather go for a full team of gun drones (14(full team plus commanders 2) twinlinked shots at S5 Ap5 all firing at BS5 with pinning and JSJ is pretty nice. And only needs 2 MLs to remove cover so support required is minimal. Then whatever your commander is shooting as well)

Brutal Viking wrote:
If you want to use drones I've found they work best on MP crisis teams joined by a commander. Every member will need a target lock though or you end up obliterating the unit you marked and wasting 5+MLs

Build would look something like this

Commander- 142
Airbursting Fragmentation projector
Target Lock
Vectored retro-thrusters
drone controller
2x marker drones

Crisis Team- 243
6x missile pod
3x Target Lock
6x Marker Drones

total 385pts

it gives you just over 6MLs a turn on a unit and JSJ and frees up your fast attack for other stuff like sun sharks (cause no one ever expects tau to bring flyers) or whatever else you want. The downside of course is that can't benifit from those lights but changing the commanders weapon to a flamer and drop target lock off him then you can take a CnC node which should help with that. It's expensive but if I was going to run marker drones that's how I would do it.

I'm a little biased though. I'm not a big fan of drones since they cause Ld tests for some silly reason and if I was going to run a drone squad with a commander I'd rather go for a full team of gun drones (14(full team plus commanders 2) twinlinked shots at S5 Ap5 all firing at BS5 with pinning and JSJ is pretty nice. And only needs 2 MLs to remove cover so support required is minimal. Then whatever your commander is shooting as well)

Interesting - hadn't thought of crisis squad marker drones...
I'm liking that gun drone build

Doc cheech nailed it in his edit, you have to accept the fact any pathfinder team you out on the board will not make it to the end of the game but if you can prioritize your targets well and take advantage of them while they are around you can survive the game and they do pull a lot of shots while they are there so that's helping keep your actual damage dealers and scoring units out of the cross hairs for a couple rounds. If they can't shoot at your MLs they'll shoot at more important stuff and being left with a couple teams of drones that can't deal damage late game while everything that can use the MLs is in the deceased pile isn't helpful.

Also both the Sun Shark bomber and Skyray have marker lights as part of their standard load-out as well so there are other sources out there for you to "paint" the enemy.

Be wary when using Drones with suits as Brutal Viking warned they will cause leadership tests to be taken if enough are lost.

When I do farsight lists I'll do the crisis team markers just cause I'm putting them anyway so I can merge the 2 slots. If you take off 1 MP from a crisis and give it a drone controller your drones will have the same BS as the pathfinders and free up your commander for other stuff. You can also do stuff to help pathfinders survive like giving them a devilfish with disruption pods and parking it in front of them blocking your enemies LoS to them and moving it out of the way in your movement phase letting them shoot and then turbo boosting it back in front during its shooting phase but AFTER your pathfinders shoot giving it a 4+ save and keeping them safe for another round (my usual opponent hates when I do that) it costs 95pts per fish but keeps them safe and gives them a bit of mobility if they are needed elsewhere. Jest remember to keep the fish 6.1" away from them if you do it or the fish could blow up and take the team with it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DocCheech17 wrote:
Also both the Sun Shark bomber and Skyray have marker lights as part of their standard load-out as well so there are other sources out there for you to "paint" the enemy.

Be wary when using Drones with suits as Brutal Viking warned they will cause leadership tests to be taken if enough are lost.

stealth suits can also get MLs (3) as well as broadsides (2 each) and Shas'ui in your Fire Warrior teams (3). To help with running away if you keep an Ethereal in your back field to intercept them I think the codex states units MUST use his Ld for all moral, pinning, and Ld tests so if they make a break for it just move him to intercept and they roll the next turn on his Ld... I don't have my dex with me though so I could be wrong on that

Sounds like I should've added more options into the poll...
Interesting feedback

@Doccheech - are you adding the cost if the shas'o to that of the drones in your example above? If so then I think this is incorrect. By giving the commander a target lock he can basically go about his normal business while the drones do their marking. The range available to the markerlights and the commanders weapon choices means that its easy enough for both of them to go for their own preferred targets. I also think that the higher mobility of the drones is of great benefit.

 Flinty wrote:
By giving the commander a target lock he can basically go about his normal business while the drones do their marking.

Except the commander can't, because the commander's normal business is handing out buffs (twin-linked and no cover). The commander's own shooting, if it ever happens at all, is just a nice bonus. By forcing the commander to stay with a drone squad you're throwing away those bonuses (or not taking an ethereal/Shadowsun/etc to hand out even more buffs).

Tetras all the way. Much nicer for marker support. The only thing they don't get is the ion rifles of pathfinders.



@Peregrine: The Commander hands out enough of a buff by just having his BS5 drone controller. If you're building a commander to go with a marker drone squad, he doesn't need to sacrifice his own shooting and might as well be loaded up with guns and a TL. By attaching a commander to a marker drone squad, you are effectively spreading that buff to the whole of your army through their Target Acquisitions rather than confining it to a single deathstar squad.

@ Flinty - I was including the baseline price of a Commander (85 points) plus the 8 points for the Drone Controller to get the costs of the Mark'o drone squad.

I see your point about the Commander paying the 5 extra points for the Target Lock to be able to bring extra weapons but IMHO you're still paying 168 points for the 12 drones (192 if the CDR is bringing his 2 drones) plus the cost of the Commander with DC (93) to use those marker drones at BS 5, so in the end you are still investing that (261 / 285 points ) into 10 - 11 marker lights per turn on a single target.

Sure the Mark'o commander can also bring weapons and a target lock but now you have a commander that cost anywhere from 108 (double flamer) to 138 (double twin linked option) that as a unit hands out 10 - 11 markers and can shoot 2 weapons at a target with out benefit of the marker lights placed on it by its team. This unit will now cost in excess of 300 points for the 14 drones as well as the weapons, DC, and TL for the Commander . Not to mention that it totally negates all the amazing signature systems that the Commander can take due to the fact that he'll be joining a non shooting unit and also be firing on his own.

ultimately my 3 major issues with the Mark'o commander over pathfinders are:

1 - 11 Marker lights per turn sound GREAT but that is all on a single unit, while two smaller similar costing pathfinder squads can marker two separate units providing more fire support and allowing greater diversity in target allocation and priority. Also having this many markers on a single unit will lead to some of them being wasted.

2 - Personally I feel that the benefits of the signature systems that the commander can confer to units greatly outweigh using him in marker light support and is a waste of points, which I will go into below

3 - Pathfinders are CHEAP and draw enemy to them, often early allowing you to place your forces to counter this, often times opponents will allocate 200+ point units to take out a 66 point squad of pathfinders. Furthermore marker dones have no offensive capabilities if your army is running low on shooty things late in games.

Personally I would say the best option is:

for 267 points you can get:

6 x pathfinders (66 points) - 3 markers per turn
6 x pathfinders (66 points) - 3 markers per turn

Buff Commander CCN, MSSS, PEN (135 points) - who confers all the benefits of marker lights onto what ever unit he joins. (I usually add a Neuroweb Systems Jammer for 2 points as well as a 5 point flamer for JUST in case bringing the unit to cost 142)

For Example I'm a huge fan of having the Buff Commander join a 3 suit team of dual non twin-linked Deathrains that cost 156 points. For 291 points I get on average 9 S7 AP4 hits that ignore cover, as well as allow me to re-roll to wound on Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles all at 36 inches. This unit can function like this through out the game and due to the S7 can serve in a various amount of roles as it can glance AV13 to death as well as obliterate light infantry forcing leadership tests almost every turn. This unit will never need marker light support and allows the rest of your army to benefit from the 132 points you have invested in the two pathfinder squads.

@ Bossfearless:

Tetras are a good addition due to their speed and increased survive ability but you run into the whole FW argument as many places do not allow FW into tournament play.

As for the Mark'o Commander see my arguments above, as I said below Marker Lights are GREAT and make Tau deadly but the one thing I've come to the conclusion of is that every point you allocate to marker lights and every light you shoot per turn is one less shot/kill your army will make. Yes Marker Lights will enhance your shooting but you can't be overly reliant on them and need to have your Army function once they are gone and luckily Tau has many ways to do that to include

+ Commander Buffs
+ Volume of Fire
+ Twin Linking

But then again the beauty of this game we all play is that there is NO right answer just what works for you, and what you prefer.

 bossfearless wrote:
@Peregrine: The Commander hands out enough of a buff by just having his BS5 drone controller. If you're building a commander to go with a marker drone squad, he doesn't need to sacrifice his own shooting and might as well be loaded up with guns and a TL. By attaching a commander to a marker drone squad, you are effectively spreading that buff to the whole of your army through their Target Acquisitions rather than confining it to a single deathstar squad.

I think you're missing the point a bit. It's not the specific commander model you're wasting, it's the HQ slot. Tau have amazing buff units that make dual HQs pretty much mandatory in every Tau army: the support commander, the ethereal, and Shadowsun. The support commander is the best and an auto-include, so you have one HQ slot left. And would you rather waste it making a marker drone unit slightly more effective than pathfinders, or would you rather just take the pathfinders and bring that very important ethereal to solve your morale problems and boost your firepower, give a key Riptide/allied death star/etc a 2+ cover save, etc? The answer is pretty obviously not the marker drones.

The other way to get BS5 Markerlights is to get a Sniper Drone squad with 3 Firesight Marksmen, led by an Ethereal with 2 marker drones. Their drone controller makes that 5 X BS5 Markerlights... But that's also two FOC slots, so I voted for Pathfinders. Plus I love Rail Snipers.