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Made in ca
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Edmonton AB

First I want to apologize if this question is in the wrong section. It's just a question about the rule mentioned in the title so I the only other option that seemed to fit was GD

I played a 2500pt game with my Tau vs my usual opponents Necrons and I had a few times where I insta-killed some of his guys but he couldn't find anything in his codex that said whether he still got his RP roll if it was insta gibbed.

we eventually decided instakilled=nothing left to reanimate but but I'm curious if there's a spot that actually says it 1 way or another. If you could clarify this and possibly provide a source I'd greatly appreciate it.

thanks in advance

6200
6th: 127/17/21 - 7th: 1/0/0
4800
6th: 6/0/1 - 7th 0/0/0
1820
WIP
1427
WIP

All points are base units with no upgrades



 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

The only thing the Necron Codex says that stops the reanimation is if you destroy the entire unit.

There is something else to do with assault, I think, but ID wounds do not prohibit RP.

EDIT: Under "Ever Living", it says that if there is nowhere to place the model, it is removed anyway, but I'n not sure if that also applies to RP.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 18:21:12


 
   
Made in us
Fighter Ace






Denver, CO

The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.

Eagles soar, but weasels don't get sucked into Jet Engines.

My Little P&M Blog.
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2000 Points IG
2000 Points SM 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker




South Chicago burbs

Unless you caught your opponents unit in a sweeping advance, or killed the entire unit, he should have got his ressurection protocols.

insaniak wrote:
YMDC has plenty of room for discussion veering away from the RAW, particularly in cases like this where what is being put forward as the RAW is absurd.

11k
4K
4k
 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Leicester, England

 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 19:46:31


Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts  
   
Made in ca
Elite Tyranid Warrior




Edmonton AB

Thank you all for the prompt responses. Ultimately he decided that they should be removed I told him however he wants to do it is fine with me since I had no clue. It wouldn't have made a difference that game I don't think since his dice pretty much hated him that game but he'll be happy to hear for next game on thursday... I think I'm going to be monolith spammed :(

6200
6th: 127/17/21 - 7th: 1/0/0
4800
6th: 6/0/1 - 7th 0/0/0
1820
WIP
1427
WIP

All points are base units with no upgrades



 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







Scarey Nerd wrote:
 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."


Yeah, try telling that to a Necron player. It never works.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Scarey Nerd wrote:
 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."


Yeah, try telling that to a Necron player. It never works.

It works when you ask them to show you where EL specifies it works against SA . Without a page ref they usually realise their error quickly enough
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Scarey Nerd wrote:
 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."


Yeah, try telling that to a Necron player. It never works.

I'm a Necron player and guess what? That is the way I play it.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard





St. Louis, MO

 Ghaz wrote:
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Scarey Nerd wrote:
 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."


Yeah, try telling that to a Necron player. It never works.

I'm a Necron player and guess what? That is the way I play it.


Same here

11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die.
++

Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine







 Ghaz wrote:
 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Scarey Nerd wrote:
 Bobaram wrote:
The Assault rule is basically that if they run away, those models left behind out of unit coherency auto die, and if they get sweeping advanced those without Ever Living are destroyed as the unit was wiped out.


Ever Living doesn't save you from Sweeping Advance, it states that "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."


Yeah, try telling that to a Necron player. It never works.

I'm a Necron player and guess what? That is the way I play it.


I wished I got to play against rational Necron players. I keep getting told there is a conflict and thus the codex trumps the BRB...what that conflict actually is has never been fully explained.
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




There is no conflict. SA says you cannot save nor rescue the unit. EL does neither. The unit dies - is removed as a casualty - so SA is fulfilled. What happens to the EL counter at the end of the phase has nothing to do with it SA.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Apart from the fact the unit is restored, breaking the SA rule. As you well know. " for them the battle is over" is a rule, and one you ignore as you find it inconvenient.

The fact this happens "after" SA is neither true nor relevant. Again, as you well know WBB occurred even later - the next necron player turn - yet WBB was a literal textbook example of a special rule that could not save the unit. Again, as you we'll know, the only change in the SA rule, with an in game effect, is to remove WBB as an example, in the last 3editions SA has been functionally the same.

Of course, this is all old news; you have no RAW argument off EL bypassing SA.
   
Made in ca
Irked Necron Immortal






Halifax, NS

If a model with EL is in a unit with RP, and the unit is wiped with a sweeping advance or fails a break test, or the unit is wiped due to gunfire the result is the same.

all the RP counters are removed, they cannot come back. The EL counter (or counters) stays and is rolled for. The model (or models) with EL can come back if they make their rolls and they can be legally placed on the board (I think within 3" of the EL counter). The unit is still gone and wiped for VP purposes, the EL models now function as an IC

 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No, for the reasons that nos gave above.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 disdamn wrote:
If a model with EL is in a unit with RP, and the unit is wiped with a sweeping advance or fails a break test, or the unit is wiped due to gunfire the result is the same.

all the RP counters are removed, they cannot come back. The EL counter (or counters) stays and is rolled for. The model (or models) with EL can come back if they make their rolls and they can be legally placed on the board (I think within 3" of the EL counter). The unit is still gone and wiped for VP purposes, the EL models now function as an IC


Ever living follows the rules of rp, it does not give permission for over ruling the ststatement in rp about sweeps, there is no conflict, the model dies and cannot return
   
Made in ca
Irked Necron Immortal






Halifax, NS

I'm not at all trying to be an ass, but I do want to understand where in my thinking I'm wrong. Can you help me out as this seems to be a fine point application of rules?
. In the FAQ for necrons models with EL that are part of a destroyed unit can roll for their EL counter, they just get placed within 3" of the counter if there's no unit left.

I get that the unit is removed, but I don't get how the model with EL is also removed without first attempting the EL roll at the end of the phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nevermind, just reading more into the FAQ and this seems to answer my previous question. Unless this doesn't cover it at all and there's something else I'm missing?

Q: If a unit with one or more reanimation protocols or ever-living counters fails its Morale check and falls back off the table, what happens to the counters and the models they represent?(p29)
A: They are lost and no Reanimation Protocols/Ever-living rolls are made.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 02:27:08


 
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@formosa RP counters are not removed because the unit was caught in a sweeping advance. They are removed because no RP-only models from the unit exist. EL counters remain.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/01 09:24:46


 
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Leicester, England

For EL to save you from Sweeping Advance, it would have to specifically use the words "Sweeping Advance" at some point within the rule. It doesn't, so it doesn't. I HATE Sweeping Advance with a burning passion, it is in my opinion the most vague and ridiculously overpowered rule in the BRB, not just because as a Necron player I can and do regularly lose entire squads to it, but because it very rarely makes sense in any way, fluff or rules wise. Sure, let the assaulting squad each make one more attack, or give them all a snapshot, Throne even 1d6 automatic hits at the highest strength in the unit, but when a Helbrute gets to wipe 17 Warriors and a Lord off the board in the same amount of time it took that squad of marines to shuffle up 6"... [/rant]

In spite of all that, neither Reanimation Protocols nor Ever Living supercede SA. That privilege is reserved for Game's Workshop's chosen: The Spehs Mahreens.

Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts  
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




EL does not save you from SA.

The unit gets caught and the models are removed as a casualty, just like every other model in the game. At this stage SA has done it's job 100%.

SA does not prohibit special rules that create counters when a model is removed as a casualty

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 09:30:28


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




copper.talos wrote:
EL does not save you from SA.

The unit gets caught and the models are removed as a casualty, just like every other model in the game. At this stage SA has done it's job 100%.

SA does not prohibit special rules that create counters when a model is removed as a casualty

"For them the battle is over"

What part of that rule are you finding permission to ignore? You never manage to find a rule, just a load of assertions and a failure to follow the tenets of this forum.
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Leicester, England

nosferatu1001 wrote:
copper.talos wrote:
EL does not save you from SA.

The unit gets caught and the models are removed as a casualty, just like every other model in the game. At this stage SA has done it's job 100%.

SA does not prohibit special rules that create counters when a model is removed as a casualty

"For them the battle is over"

What part of that rule are you finding permission to ignore? You never manage to find a rule, just a load of assertions and a failure to follow the tenets of this forum.


Doesn't his first sentence directly contradict his last?

Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The entire argument contradicts the rules, but copper will not be swayed by actual rules - we've done this before. This is mainly for others to know the actual rules are nothing like what copper is saying.

I'm at some point expecting "but ETC ruled that...." To be used as justification
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@Scarey Nerd A model/unit that dies is not saved nor rescued. There is no contradiction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 12:03:23


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Copper - so for them the battle ISNT over? Page and paragraph, or concede
   
Made in im
Long-Range Land Speeder Pilot





now I'm not a necron expert....but for a sweeping advance to actually happen to begin with, doesn't the currently living members of the squad have to fail the moral check at the end of an assault phase?

I believe the answer is yes.

so on that basis alone, and with an already quoted FAQ on the subject, regardless of if the squad was caught or not they have failed a moral test and are 'falling back'.

this will trigger the FAQ:

Q: If a unit with one or more reanimation protocols or ever-living
counters fails its Morale check and falls back off the table, what
happens to the counters and the models they represent? (p29)
A: They are lost and no Reanimation Protocols/Ever-living rolls
are made.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180057a_Necrons_v1.4_APRIL13.pdf

page 4, 6th question on the left.

in short no ever living roll can be made as he has 'died' and his unit has fled.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also to append to this the last two sentences in the sweeping advance rule on P27 of the BRB clearly states that no special rules can save you at this point

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 13:14:09


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Agreed, the rules are clear to the vast majority of players, including every necron player I've met in real life.
   
Made in gr
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




@nutty_nutter There are 2 kinds of necron counters. RP and EL.

RP counters are placed on the unit and are removed the moment the unit fails a morale test or there are no more (eligible) models in the unit. So when a unit is caught in a SA all these counters are removed.

The second kind are EL counters. These are not placed on the unit, and will stay on the table even if the unit lost a morale check or has been wiped out. So they can stay even after a sweeping advance.
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer





Leicester, England

copper.talos wrote:
@nutty_nutter There are 2 kinds of necron counters. RP and EL.

RP counters are placed on the unit and are removed the moment the unit fails a morale test or there are no more (eligible) models in the unit. So when a unit is caught in a SA all these counters are removed.

The second kind are EL counters. These are not placed on the unit, and will stay on the table even if the unit lost a morale check or has been wiped out. So they can stay even after a sweeping advance.


Once again, Ever Living does not state that the counters remain in the face of Sweeping Advance, and therefore they don't. SA is a very all-encompassing rule that means unless something specifically says so, SA trumps it.

Setekh the Eternal, Phaeron of the Kopakh Dynasty, Regent of Nephthys 7660pts  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Ok, so "For them the battle is over" seems to be as much a rule as "the hatches are blown" and if no special rule can save a model from a sweeping advance how does ATSKNF pull it off. Besides a model being placed on the table after its been removed as a caualty does not save it from a sweeping advance. In fact the sweeping advance has to succeed in order for the model to be removed in the 1st place.

But, and I'll admit I don't play Necrons but I do have the codex, I don't see anything that states EL counters are removed if the unit falls back. I do see that Reanimation Protocol rolls cannot be made if the unit has been destroyed. I also see that rolls for EL counters are Reanimation Protocol rolls, something that is confirmed in the FAQ. That seems very cut and dry. If the model is part of a unit that is destroyed(as it would be during a SA) then you cannot make any reanimation protocol rolls for the units ever living counters.

I am then confused by this FAQ entry

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character from a Royal
Court, is wiped out, do you get to make any Reanimation Protocol
rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the attached
character as he has the Ever-living special rule. Note that in this
case, he must be placed within 3" of the counter as his unit has
been wiped out.

This questions seems to be, um, wrong. The unit was destroyed so no roll should be permitted correct? Also, the character was attached to the unit so it must return to play with a single wound in coherency with that unit. It can't be becouse that unit is no more so the model should be lost and not return. Instead they tell us to place him withing 3" of the counter, something you only do if the model was not attached to a unit. Can some one explain this FAQ entry?
   
 
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