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 BoomWolf wrote:
How is it any different then a wall of leman russes except the shaken/stunned part?

It's different because the one superheavy has much more firepower than the three LRBTs (or two Executioners). It isn't much tougher, but it's going to do a lot more damage every turn and it isn't going to stop firing until the last HP is removed.

My answer to a baneblade is similar to my answer to the russes, take down it's defenders, and hide out until the cavalry (in form of deepstrike fusion suits) arrive and brake it.

This is assuming no bubble wrap, warp quake, or Coteaz with something nasty. Melta is good against superheavies, but not an auto-win.

I have a few super heavies and would actually like to use my Thunderhawk in a game for a change so might pick this up.

The only problem is the TH is a massive points sink at 900pts and its main weapon cant actually shoot at anything if you use the rules as written due to the way that the game is based on a 2D.

I pre-ordered Escalation, I had just purchased all the Apocalypse book and kit, just to use the Stormlord Tank I based my new Cadians collection on. I went into Battlescribe to assist me in piecing together the adequate units to field what I want to field. I suppose this book will help tone down the amount of army I'll have to field.
I'm a collector, and I guess it is rather silly to have a command unit, two troop choices, and a superheavy tank as an army if that's the case. If I remember correctly a well-balanced army was judged a reasonable army vs. one that is elite heavy or some such. But within reason, if superheavy tanks existed, then one could assume that it could very well go and patrol the battlefield with a small detachment of Infantry.

My Apocalypse army on paper however, is an undertaking to create. I would rather balance out a decent army in the beginning that is well rounded without taking an entire regiment just to field the cool tank...

I'm actually happy about this book, a pleasant surprise actually.

Did I express my feelings well? I felt happy when I saw this book.

Daston wrote:
I have a few super heavies and would actually like to use my Thunderhawk in a game for a change so might pick this up.

The only problem is the TH is a massive points sink at 900pts and its main weapon cant actually shoot at anything if you use the rules as written due to the way that the game is based on a 2D.

Fliers can pitch up and down, sugar.

All I can say is I will now run units of 10 fire dragons in a serpent. It is true but is this the new meta?? In the same way flyers made flyer defence mandatory is this what the super heavies will do?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Daston wrote:
I have a few super heavies and would actually like to use my Thunderhawk in a game for a change so might pick this up.

The only problem is the TH is a massive points sink at 900pts and its main weapon cant actually shoot at anything if you use the rules as written due to the way that the game is based on a 2D.

Fliers can pitch up and down, sugar.

Sadly 40k isn't that realistic!

 mrshl9898 wrote:
All I can say is I will now run units of 10 fire dragons in a serpent. It is true but is this the new meta?? In the same way flyers made flyer defence mandatory is this what the super heavies will do?

Well, a full unit of Fire Dragons in a fast skimmer are certainly helpful to take down a Superheavy. They could take down a Baneblade in one volley.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
How is it any different then a wall of leman russes except the shaken/stunned part?

It's different because the one superheavy has much more firepower than the three LRBTs (or two Executioners). It isn't much tougher, but it's going to do a lot more damage every turn and it isn't going to stop firing until the last HP is removed.

Yes, but AFAIK he can still target only one unit. (dont play apoc, dont blame me if I'm wrong)
That unit is DEAD. but the rest of the army is fine, unlike the russes that can each shoot at another target.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
My answer to a baneblade is similar to my answer to the russes, take down it's defenders, and hide out until the cavalry (in form of deepstrike fusion suits) arrive and brake it.

This is assuming no bubble wrap, warp quake, or Coteaz with something nasty. Melta is good against superheavies, but not an auto-win.

That what I meant by "kill its defenders"-kill whatever is blocking my fusion suits from doing their job. interceptors, bubble wrapers, DS distupters and such.
Its not auto-win. its strategy, if I outplay him I'd win, if not, I'd lose.

I'm not saying its easy, I'm saying its FAIR.

Why is the Baneblade the only super heavy being taken into consideration when thinking on this topic? It's not even the scariest super heavy that will be seen. Eldar Titans are far more mobile, and fire far more devastating weapons (D-Weapons).

In fact, I find the Baneblade to be one of the weakest super heavies out there. Tell me what you'll do against the Khorne Lord of Skulls or the Warhound Titan and then I'll start to think this isn't such a bad idea. You know, things that can get into close combat and then just 'stomp' you to death.

 Matt1785 wrote:
Why is the Baneblade the only super heavy being taken into consideration when thinking on this topic? It's not even the scariest super heavy that will be seen. Eldar Titans are far more mobile, and fire far more devastating weapons (D-Weapons).

In fact, I find the Baneblade to be one of the weakest super heavies out there. Tell me what you'll do against the Khorne Lord of Skulls or the Warhound Titan and then I'll start to think this isn't such a bad idea. You know, things that can get into close combat and then just 'stomp' you to death.

Because of the "no-more-than-25%-points" of the army limit.

For most games of 1500 pts., that one superheavy will be capped at 375 pts.

For the slightly larger ~2000 pts. game that appear to be popular in the US, it will be capped at ~500 pts.

Hard to get an Eldar Titan in at that. A Baneblade, however, seems a typical inclusion under those rules.

And thus we'll have rules for Dark Eldar and Tau Baneblades I suppose but DE have the Tanthalus let's see what superheavy my Tau have.... And GW misses yet another chance to get money from me by focusing completely on imperial armies.

 agnosto wrote:
And thus we'll have rules for Dark Eldar and Tau Baneblades I suppose but DE have the Tanthalus let's see what superheavy my Tau have.... And GW misses yet another chance to get money from me by focusing completely on imperial armies.

Tau just got a pretty nice kit with the Riptide half a year ago.

Seriously?

You're complaining that Tau are not getting two (!) large kits with the span of 6 months?

i think the nature of the expansion means that you'll always be prepared - if your friend wants to bring his super heavy to a game, you'll know it beforehand, and you'll probably know what it is he's bringing unless your friends are millionairres and have several to choose from.

This preparedness balances it to an extent imo. I'd be happy to play against my friends' super heavies, and it gives me an excuse to buy a baneblade

also i'm sure i heard a rumour that D weapons were only strength 10 ap 1 in escalation, is this true?

i don't mind at all.

i like playing 1500pt games, so if you want to bring your Super heavy in go for it. means a major point sink. if i do kill it you'll have every little force left too.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
And thus we'll have rules for Dark Eldar and Tau Baneblades I suppose but DE have the Tanthalus let's see what superheavy my Tau have.... And GW misses yet another chance to get money from me by focusing completely on imperial armies.

Tau just got a pretty nice kit with the Riptide half a year ago.

Seriously?

You're complaining that Tau are not getting two (!) large kits with the span of 6 months?

A MC does not a superheavy make. I'd love to spend money on Tau stuff if they make terrain/fortifications for anything other than imperial forces and a superheavy other than a Manta.

xruslanx wrote:
also i'm sure i heard a rumour that D weapons were only strength 10 ap 1 in escalation, is this true?

Doubtful. If you go to the ebook section for Stronghold Assault, although it's still pre-order, the preview is up. In it, it has a weapon with Strength D in one of its examples which reads as follows:

"the firing player rolls on the Destroyer Weapon Attack table. They roll a 4 - a Solid Hit, and the Monolith suffers an Explodes! result"

Unless Stronghold and Escalation are following different rules, which sounds unlikely... :(

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am out because i have read that Marines only have the Thunderhawk (a huge, somewhat fragile model that is not even remotely affordable in any economy)? I am one of those rare marine players that is not too keen on the T-hawk as a model and I certainly am not going to drop 500 US on it.

Of course this could be wrong and marines will be able to use some of the heresy era tanks, at which point my interest might pick up.

That is why I went with a Warhound Titan to put with my marines, Dreamforge has good models you can use as a warhound and they are a lot cheaper than a FW one.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Because of the "no-more-than-25%-points" of the army limit.

For most games of 1500 pts., that one superheavy will be capped at 375 pts.

For the slightly larger ~2000 pts. game that appear to be popular in the US, it will be capped at ~500 pts.

Hard to get an Eldar Titan in at that. A Baneblade, however, seems a typical inclusion under those rules.

Well, considering a Baneblade is 525 pts... 2100+ pt games? As much as I'd like to think GW would throw some sense into the way they're implementing this, I'm not sold on it. If they put the 25% cap, you're looking at really high points games to even fit the super heavy, it seems counter productive to the cause since that would basically just be Apoc light.

 CrashCanuck wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
I am out because i have read that Marines only have the Thunderhawk (a huge, somewhat fragile model that is not even remotely affordable in any economy)? I am one of those rare marine players that is not too keen on the T-hawk as a model and I certainly am not going to drop 500 US on it.

Of course this could be wrong and marines will be able to use some of the heresy era tanks, at which point my interest might pick up.

That is why I went with a Warhound Titan to put with my marines, Dreamforge has good models you can use as a warhound and they are a lot cheaper than a FW one.

In fact, the Dreamforge models are quite nice.

I have 2 of the Leviathan Crusaders so far, one of my favorite models to put together

The main issue I have is that it pushes 40K even farther into making only rich and/or fiscally irresponsible people the best. That does occur now to a degree, but when you make $200+ models mandatory to play with the big boys that puts the final nail in the coffin for outpricing many people.

I am for sure not going to be buying a Lord of Skulls just to be able to make a good list. Buying a $25 pack of dire wolves for spawn sure, but $200, not happening.

herpguy wrote:
The main issue I have is that it pushes 40K even farther into making only rich and/or fiscally irresponsible people the best. That does occur now to a degree, but when you make $200+ models mandatory to play with the big boys that puts the final nail in the coffin for outpricing many people.

I am for sure not going to be buying a Lord of Skulls just to be able to make a good list. Buying a $25 pack of dire wolves for spawn sure, but $200, not happening.

I dont think its issue. I just (OK, 3 months ago) started. For 1000pts army I already spent about 500 euro (OK, with paints, rules etc) - and its still not finished Its already pricey hobby. Im not rich, but I make money, I have family and I know when I can spend those money on my "relaxation models". When I decide to move my collection to 2000pts range or another army, it will be another HUGE investment. Paying 100 euro + for beautiful model which certainly in many games isnt mandatory is really just small portion of the whole sum.

So what SHs are SM getting?

 Matt1785 wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:

Because of the "no-more-than-25%-points" of the army limit.

For most games of 1500 pts., that one superheavy will be capped at 375 pts.

For the slightly larger ~2000 pts. game that appear to be popular in the US, it will be capped at ~500 pts.

Hard to get an Eldar Titan in at that. A Baneblade, however, seems a typical inclusion under those rules.

Well, considering a Baneblade is 525 pts... 2100+ pt games? As much as I'd like to think GW would throw some sense into the way they're implementing this, I'm not sold on it. If they put the 25% cap, you're looking at really high points games to even fit the super heavy, it seems counter productive to the cause since that would basically just be Apoc light.

Maybe the rumors of WHAT superheavies are in are wrong. maybe the baneblade and the clown god (the only two seem officially) are the most expensive things in the book?

The Tau Orca for example, is a "mere" 300 point superheavy, fits into a 1200 game by the 25% limit.
(not sure I'd even want one for 300 points though, its just a big-ass flying transport.)

Makumba wrote:

How is it any different then a wall of leman russes except the shaken/stunned part? (a part mostly useless when they got 3 of them at the cost, at best you temporarily disabled ONE)

I have never had tau , eldar or gravmarines hurt less then two per turn per turn .

You say that only marines can hit you with melta turn 1? sisters would like a word. they can, and WILL throw about 10 melta shots at it turn 1.

Suddenly your vendettas are not the ultimate answer to any and all armor? bummer.

no am saying IG has no turn one ways of taking down a super heavy. So if he starts , he gets 2 unobstructed turns of shoting with it . To kill something like that with guard bs and melta guns , I would need more then 10 meltaguns in range and that is , if he doesn't put the super heavy on a landing pad for +4inv.

And If my codex is balanced around vendettas doing the anti tank , then yes it is a bummer when GW adds stuff which makes my army unable to counter it .

And yes, I'm aware of how one-sided it would be (that thing is OP even in apoc where balance is a dream)-but it will be FUN.

yeah because if a group of guys twice your size is wooping your ass , it is so much fun .

Yeah, poor Imperial Guard and their worthless artillery. If only Manticores were good at killing large vehicles. Woe is you!

Most of the arguments on this thread boil down to this.

1. I cant afford it so nobody should be allowed to use it!

2. And 40K is a competitive sport, only GT's matter! Even though what most GT's boil down too is having opponents that don't hard counter your list, while having a list that hard counters everyone else. As only GT list are balanced, and require enough skill to have fun. Triple riptide, seerstar, screamerstar, waveserpent spam are all viable tactics, that require skill more than anything else.

 agnosto wrote:
And thus we'll have rules for Dark Eldar and Tau Baneblades I suppose but DE have the Tanthalus let's see what superheavy my Tau have.... And GW misses yet another chance to get money from me by focusing completely on imperial armies.

Check out the Tigershark AX-10. Super heavy flyer with D strength Railguns.

In theory, Escalation shouldn't have too many issues except two.

First, D weapons. Now, weapons on massive war machines should be ridiculously powerful, but as is, these weapons are not only incredibly powerful and can throw balance way out of whack, but they're somewhat stilted as well, being much more punitive to vehicles than to T-based models. A Land Raider lives 1/12 times it's hit (and gets an immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned result anyway on top of an HP loss), while a Grot get's off without a scratch twice as often (1/6th of the time), and something like a Carnifex lives (even if somewhat wounded) a majority of the time.

Second, the basic plastic superheavies are largely handled well, the stuff in the 400-700pt range. Outside of that, GW can't cost for squat and the larger Superheavy/Gargantuan creature stuff is easily capable of routinely facing 2-4x their points cost in opposing forces.

TL;DR if it sticks to stuff like Stompas and Baneblades, there really won't be any issues and it should be lots of fun (if you can deal with 3 Leman Russ tanks, you can deal with a Baneblade even easier). If stuff like Heirophants or Titans with multiple pie-plate unmodified D weapons start showing up, then it won't be so fun.

 Vaktathi wrote:
In theory, Escalation shouldn't have too many issues except two.
First, D weapons. Now, weapons on massive war machines should be ridiculously powerful, but as is, these weapons are not only incredibly powerful and can throw balance way out of whack, but they're somewhat stilted as well, being much more punitive to vehicles than to T-based models. A Land Raider lives 1/12 times it's hit (and gets an immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned result anyway on top of an HP loss), while a Grot get's off without a scratch twice as often (1/6th of the time), and something like a Carnifex lives (even if somewhat wounded) a majority of the time.

Last I heard D weapons would automatically.

Mike712 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
In theory, Escalation shouldn't have too many issues except two.
First, D weapons. Now, weapons on massive war machines should be ridiculously powerful, but as is, these weapons are not only incredibly powerful and can throw balance way out of whack, but they're somewhat stilted as well, being much more punitive to vehicles than to T-based models. A Land Raider lives 1/12 times it's hit (and gets an immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned result anyway on top of an HP loss), while a Grot get's off without a scratch twice as often (1/6th of the time), and something like a Carnifex lives (even if somewhat wounded) a majority of the time.

Last I heard D weapons would automatically.

No, D6 roll.

1- no damage
2-5: take D3+3 wounds
6: take D6+6 wounds