GW's digital advent releases : day 25 : Cypher audio and rules p22

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**His Master's Voice**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How often are you near a lake? Is the lake clean? Do you have water purification tablets or some sort of filter? Who owns an apple tree?

I'm more interested in hearing what makes those extra rules snippets inherently free, and therefore an example of GW fleecing people.

**DarknessEternal**

Archonate wrote:
Paying several dollars for this seems odd.

Wouldn't have bought the White Dwarf these rules would have been in?

Where you aware a copy of White Dwarf is twice the cost of this download?

**H.B.M.C.**

His Master's Voice wrote:
I'm more interested in hearing what makes those extra rules snippets inherently free, and therefore an example of GW fleecing people.

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

DarknessEternal wrote:
Wouldn't have bought the White Dwarf these rules would have been in?

Where you aware a copy of White Dwarf is twice the cost of this download?

Were you aware that GW used to put these sorts of things on their website as free PDFs?

**DarknessEternal**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Were you aware that GW used to put these sorts of things on their website as free PDFs?

Name three things GW put on the website for use in 40k like this.

If you also can't name 20 things that have been in White Dwarf for each, you're either being obstinate or ignorant.

**davethepak**

I hate to ask, but sincerely - is this that bad?

Or is it bad because the players who made a few specific cheesy power lists made them even worse?

Will they be worse than any of the current cheese?

So, this means at 1850 some guy with three riptides will get a fourth....what did he take out of that list?

Yeah, sure he might blow you off the table (didn't he already? Wasn't he already recognized as a douchebag?) - but in list he has what....what did he take out?

In the past where we had razorspam, dragiowing, cron air, etc and now we have screamstars, fateweaver rerolls, serpent spam and riptide hordes..isn't this just more riptides?

Don't get me wrong, I think there are plenty of opportunities for better balancing rules in the game - but what will this really make different?

**warboss**

So.. just to get this straight... you get those benefits (tank hunter, preferred enemy) at no additional point cost? And the "downside" is that you're forced to take the go-to unit of this edition (Riptide) and field two of the go-to unit that every seasoned tau player has from last edition (broadsides)? Wow...

**jonolikespie**

DarknessEternal wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Were you aware that GW used to put these sorts of things on their website as free PDFs?

Name three things GW put on the website for use in 40k like this.

If you also can't name 20 things that have been in White Dwarf for each, you're either being obstinate or ignorant.

You mean like the pile of Apoc datasheets they had up, which included the asset cards along with 30 or so datasheets (at least that's the number of them I have in my folder, there might have been more I didn't snag before they disappeared). There was also the old Blood Angels White Dwarf dex.
In the recent past White Dwarf would have those datasheets and stuff in them shortly before they appeared on the website, or things like Spearhead and even then it was a pale comparison to the really old White Dwarf.

**Peregrine**

Dr. What wrote:
Additionally, I doubt we're going to see much abuse of all of these attachments, due to the points cost. By the time you're considering putting in an apocalypse detachment, you maybe be at 2k + points.

This isn't really true. Tau have good cheap options that they'd love to spam, but can't really because of FOC limits. For example, throwaway melta suits are a very good deal points-wise, but taking up a vital Riptide slot makes them a bad idea. Now you can fix that "problem" and take a Riptide in a special slot and open up an elites slot for that melta suit. And now that you've got two free heavy slots for the Broadsides you were already taking you can spend your normal heavy slots on some cheap sniper drones (excellent markerlights) or more Sky Rays.

And that's just Tau. If IG get something like that for fast attack or heavy support it's a game-changing release because IG armies are almost always constrained more by the FOC than by points.

**Matt.Kingsley**

DarknessEternal wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Were you aware that GW used to put these sorts of things on their website as free PDFs?

Name three things GW put on the website for use in 40k like this.

C: WH, C: DH, Spearhead, Apoc Formations (all 30+ of them), Eldar Nightspinner rules, off the top of my head.

And for Fantasy there was Winter Magic.

**Shas'o_Longshot**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

C: WH, C: DH, Spearhead, Apoc Formations (all 30+ of them), Eldar Nightspinner rules, off the top of my head.

And for Fantasy there was Winter Magic.

Now, I agree with the sentiment, but weren't WH and DH put up after their respective replacements in C:SoB and C:GK? I could be mistaken

Also, there's an argument to be made that for most of those, you NEEDED those rules to use the model. Not so with these rules so far, Be'lakor is basically a Daemon Prince. Not a good defence, but still...

**Matt.Kingsley**

Nope, they weren't, they were put up a few months before C:GK

**reds8n**

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Tactica-Riptides.html

Tactica: XV104 Riptides

Tactica: XV104 Riptides
Tactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 Riptides

The XV104 Riptide is the pinnacle of the Earth caste's battlesuit development. It stands twice as tall as the XV8 Crisis suit, but its movements are more like those of its smaller cousins than the mechanical stiffness displayed by Imperial walkers with their crude servo-motors. A fearsome weapon of war, it can stand alonge against almost anything the enemies of the Tau Empire have in their arsenal.

Tactica: XV104 Riptides explores the use and tactics of the Riptide in games of Warhammer 40,000. Discover the tips and tricks for getting the most out of this impressive war machine, and how to bring ruin to the foes of the Tau Empire, as well as its weaknesses and how to defeat it.

COMPATIBILITY:

This eBook digital edition is compatible with most current generation mobile devices, tablets, computers and eReaders including Android, Kindle and iBooks devices. The exact look and layout of the eBook will depend on the eReader being used.

meh, can't see this being a big seller really.

Unless it has some truly revolutionary ideas and tips to destroy the 6 Broadside suits that will accompany every Riptide now of course.

**Shas'o_Longshot**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Nope, they weren't, they were put up a few months before C:GK

Fair enough, thanks for teaching me something!

**Peregrine**

reds8n wrote:
meh, can't see this being a big seller really.

What, you mean you don't want to pay $2.99 to read the same tactics you can get from any random blog/forum for free?

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Also, there's an argument to be made that for most of those, you NEEDED those rules to use the model.

Codex: Witch Hunter was needed to play Sisters of Battle models, and was put as a free pdf on the website. WDex: Sisters of Battle was needed to play Sisters of Battle models, and was never put as a free pdf on the website, even while it wasn't possible to buy it anymore.
So, yeah, I think there is a change in mentality here.

**dionysus**

So im fine with the rules releases, as i can get hours of entertainment from them.

on the other hand

I purchased the ahriman short story for 2 bucks: It was 5 pages of short fluff and 8 pages of legal (do not duplicate/copyright crap and an about the author paragraph.)

2 bucks is nothing, but its worth more than a 2 min read. Said another way, When your legalese is longer than your content, there is an issue.

**Sarouan**

reds8n wrote:

Unless it has some truly revolutionary ideas and tips to destroy the 6 Broadside suits that will accompany every Riptide now of course.

Maybe by including a rule like "if you play against a Riptide, roll a dice at the beginning of each turn and on a 3+ it can't be used this turn 'cause you managed to exploit its weak points thanks to your awesome tactical knowledge"? Then I'm sure they would sell it a lot.

Just kidding, of course. Unless GW proves me I was right.

**His Master's Voice**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

**Kolbalt266**

GW "Riptide Tactica" = You should "buy more riptides", and buy these Rules so you can "Buy More Riptides", and they work well with pathfinders, so "BUY MORE RIPTIDES", and case you missed the Point "BUY EVEN MORE RIPTIDES"

**agnosto**

Other than the obvious selling of models by strengthening the rules for said models... exactly why some companies provide rules for free.

I still have the old chapter approved kroot mercenary army list. It had fluff, background info from the author and design notes, all provided for free on the GW website.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Yeah, like Kolbalt266, giving rules that allows almost every army to use riptides and broadsides without taking either FOC slots or allies slot, with free special rule bonus, is really encouraging people to buy riptide. Especially those that didn't before because they already had allies, or had their FOC slots already full.

**jonolikespie**

His Master's Voice wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

There are plenty of other businesses out there in the model world that are sticking to the idea that you buy 1 rulebook per edition and nothing else rules wise, if the stats aren't in that book or in the box with the models then they are up on the internet being given away fro free. GW is the only company out there I can think of that tries to make you pay twice, three times or possibly even four times to get all the rules for your army. GW is also the only company that I can think of off the top of my head that is visibly shrinking in the industry at the moment, the others are all growing.

Rules should not be a major seller for a model company, the models should be. The fact that GW try to squeeze people so much for rules is just stupid and flies in the face of the whole 'we are a model company' line they love so much.

**H.B.M.C.**

His Master's Voice wrote:
GW is a business.

Ah. That one never gets old.

His Master's Voice wrote:
That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

It acts as free promotion, promotes goodwill amongst your customers, and it's generally the kind've thing marketing departments love (I know this first hand).

Of course, GW doesn't have a marketing department. Just a sales department.

**His Master's Voice**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ah. That one never gets old.

Obvious truths are like that.

We have no actual data on how semi-free rules affected GW bottom line, so while I understand the argument for promotion and good will, neither of us knows which approach is/was more profitable for GW in it's current state.

**weeble1000**

reds8n wrote:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Tactica-Riptides.html

Tactica: XV104 Riptides

Tactica: XV104 Riptides
Tactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 RiptidesTactica: XV104 Riptides

The XV104 Riptide is the pinnacle of the Earth caste's battlesuit development. It stands twice as tall as the XV8 Crisis suit, but its movements are more like those of its smaller cousins than the mechanical stiffness displayed by Imperial walkers with their crude servo-motors. A fearsome weapon of war, it can stand alonge against almost anything the enemies of the Tau Empire have in their arsenal.

Tactica: XV104 Riptides explores the use and tactics of the Riptide in games of Warhammer 40,000. Discover the tips and tricks for getting the most out of this impressive war machine, and how to bring ruin to the foes of the Tau Empire, as well as its weaknesses and how to defeat it.

COMPATIBILITY:

This eBook digital edition is compatible with most current generation mobile devices, tablets, computers and eReaders including Android, Kindle and iBooks devices. The exact look and layout of the eBook will depend on the eReader being used.

meh, can't see this being a big seller really.

Unless it has some truly revolutionary ideas and tips to destroy the 6 Broadside suits that will accompany every Riptide now of course.

So now they want you to pay for marketing that encourages you to buy the new hot model?

**Zweischneid**

weeble1000 wrote:

So now they want you to pay for marketing that encourages you to buy the new hot model?

They always did. Ever bought their game rules? A Codex? A Black Library novel?

**weeble1000**

His Master's Voice wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Remember when GW used to put up Apocalypse Datasheets? Campaign articles from WD? All of spear head? The Blood Angel WD Codex? Remember how these things were free?

They were, after a time. You had to initially pay for that stuff by buying the WD, which wasn't a perfect solution either.

That doesn't actually answer my question though. GW is a business. Unless you can come up with an argument on how free content of this variety increases sales in other areas, I don't see why they should not charge for it.

If McDonalds started charging a premium to sit down and eat your food in the restaurant, would you think that is reasonable?

If a taxi driver charged you 2 dollars extra per mile to turn on the AC, would you think that is reasonable?

If your gym started charging you an extra fee to use the showers, would you think that is reasonable?

If Wal-mart charged you a fee to play the pro-mo PS4, would you think that is reasonable?

If the grocery store started charging for samples, would you think that is reasonable?

If airlines started charging you a fee to check your bags...yea, nobody is happy about that are they?

**H.B.M.C.**

If a company started charging for little tactica articles, would you think that is reason... oh wait... too late.

That's the next one BTW. A Riptide Tactica. I guess the Tactica would be "Buy lots of Riptides". Riveting.

**His Master's Voice**

weeble1000 wrote:
If McDonalds started charging a premium to sit down and eat your food in the restaurant, would you think that is reasonable?

Well, they already do that. You're just not being charged with a separate bill.

The point I was making is that just because something was free, doesn't mean it should remain free forever if selling it is more profitable. The opposite is just as true. The market changed, delivery methods changed and most of all, GW changed. Changed for the worse, as many would argue, but changed nonetheless. What worked in the past may not be a suitable solution today.

**Noctem**

Hmm I'm still a little confused about where it says that an army that isn't Tau can use this Tau formation, I bought the Fireblade Support Cadre for the 5 bucks, and I thought I read somewhere in it that hinted at you needing the primary detachment to be the same codex as the formation detachment. I mean you can't freely use Apoc formations of other codexes in an army right? Or am I way off...