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I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.

 qwerty3666 wrote:
I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.

No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason).
The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.

And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.

 quickfuze wrote:

 qwerty3666 wrote:
I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.

No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason).
The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.

And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.

My imperial guard army is all "Proxy" models (for the infantry). I used various 28-32mm scale sci fi human sites to scratch build my own unique imperial guard army. Spent even more time and money than usual (got them all commissioned too). Why? Because i didnt want to spend my money on GW branded guardsmen. The best armies i have ever seen are the ones that where made using alternate models from other companies and very good counts as models. I think the cost for boring detail lacking Cadians horribly over priced. I will not spend a dime on those models. I would rather spend less money on a superior scult from victoria miniatures. Some people have an imagination, let them use it.

Would you tell me to play checkers because i didnt play my imperial guard army as intended (as the images you see in the codex where the rules are found)?

Edited by Manchu

Its not like he wanted to buy 5 of them, just one. I think that knight looks awesome. Id pick that over the warhound. The bigger titan is by far the better one (no idea what its called). But if the leviathan was put on the opposite side of my table with smoke effect coming out of those tourches on its back and was nicely detailed id applaud him for putting in effort and saving money. Id more impressed seeing that than the guy who purchased 5 official warhounds.

Agree 100% on the Imperial Guard infantry. If only the cadians weren't so "heroic"... I prefer virtually any other range of basic troopers. I'm torn on the tanks though, with a love/hate thing.

There's ample justification for using a Dreamforge Leviathan or Mortis in 40k, with rediscovered STCs and what not. You can say it's not a warhound, but it's functionally equivalent to one. Same goes for Chaos, they aren't restricted to STC patterns so there's even more likelihood of them using non-official stuff.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:

 qwerty3666 wrote:
I Would have no issue with it in a freindly game.Furthermore I think people saying no to a model on the grounds of apearence shouldn't be playing any wargame . Conversions and proxies aren't to everyones taste but they define an army and should only be encouraged.

No...conversions of official models define or provide character to an army (agreed). Proxies are for trying out the rules of something you are considering buying, No official model exists yet OR to avoid having to spend the money but still use a unit because you believe it a good addition (or is OP) to your army (what some of us say is not a valid reason).
The OP has stated that his reason for "proxy" is to avoid paying the cost for a model that he deems excessive. As to your "furthermore" statement, I will counter with my own absurd personal bias as well....I think those who cant afford to play the game as intended using the official rules and official models should play something else....I hear checkers is pretty cheap.

And whoever said the Warhound doesnt have D weapons, I hope you were referring to your own model, because it can absolutely fire 4x D strength shots per turn with turbo-lasers.

My imperial guard army is all "Proxy" models (for the infantry). I used various 28-32mm scale sci fi human sites to scratch build my own unique imperial guard army. Spent even more time and money than usual (got them all commissioned too). Why? Because i didnt want to spend my money on GW branded guardsmen. The best armies i have ever seen are the ones that where made using alternate models from other companies and very good counts as models. I think the cost for boring detail lacking Cadians horribly over priced. I will not spend a dime on those models. I would rather spend less money on a superior scult from victoria miniatures. Some people have an imagination, let them use it.

Would you tell me to play checkers because i didnt play my imperial guard army as intended (as the images you see in the codex where the rules are found)?

Edited by Manchu

Its not like he wanted to buy 5 of them, just one. I think that knight looks awesome. Id pick that over the warhound. The bigger titan is by far the better one (no idea what its called). But if the leviathan was put on the opposite side of my table with smoke effect coming out of those tourches on its back and was nicely detailed id applaud him for putting in effort and saving money. Id more impressed seeing that than the guy who purchased 5 official warhounds.

If you notice I said I would counter an absurd statement with an equally absurd one. I was making a point that absurd personal bias (saying that we shouldnt play any wargame) should be left out of the discussion. The statement was MEANT to be over the top to prove a point. However your comments about imbreeding are a personal attack that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and meant only to insult myself and anyone who agrees with my stance on the subject. I would advise you to redact that statement.

As far as the "its not like he wants to buy 5"...it doesnt matter if he wants to buy 1, 2 or 5....he wants to field a model because its rules appeal to him but doesnt want to use the official model. If he is playing friendly games with people he knows I am sure they will have no problem with it. However, if I show up to an event (not a tourney but lets say there is some prize support for most kills or whathaveyou) then I expect to see official models across the table from me. Same way as I would expect your guard army to be disqualified at an official tourney that requires a percentage of actual GW content per model.

 quickfuze wrote:
If you notice I said I would counter an absurd statement with an equally absurd one. I was making a point that absurd personal bias (saying that we shouldnt play any wargame). The statement was MEANT to be over the top to prove a point. However your comments about imbreeding are a personal attack that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand and meant only to insult myself and anyone who agrees with my stance on the subject. I would advise you to redact that statement.

As far as the "its not like he wants to buy 5"...it doesnt matter if he wants to buy 1, 2 or 5....he wants to field a model because its rules appeal to him but doesnt want to use the official model. If he is playing friendly games with people he knows I am sure they will have no problem with it. However, if I show up to an event (not a tourney but lets say there is some prize support for most kills or whathaveyou) then I expect to see official models across the table from me. Same way as I would expect your guard army to be disqualified at an official tourney that requires a percentage of actual GW content per model.

If you didnt mean it then dont take my comment seriously, it will stay up as there have been other comments similar to yours and it annoys me. Yes re reading that i feel a little stupid about that so.... sorry to you.

As you are fairly new to the site I was simply giving you an opportunity to pull it before a MOD comes in and smacks you on the hand for it. I can assure you that they are not going to let it stay up there and the only thing that will result is you getting a warning about following the rules of the site.

 quickfuze wrote:
As you are fairly new to the site I was simply giving you an opportunity to pull it before a MOD comes in and smacks you on the hand for it. I can assure you that they are not going to let it stay up there and the only thing that will result is you getting a warning about following the rules of the site.

Thank you for the warning.

quickfuze, though the OP appears to be looking to save money; I for one am mainly into the aesthetics...that and I despise resin. So. I have a choice if I ever want to play an Apoc game with anything that has a chance of lasting more than a turn and that's the Leviathan right now. I like the model and it's in plastic and roughly similar in size. As I mentioned earlier, the folks in my area don't have any issues imagining an extra couple of inches here and there and I always give them the benefit if there's any doubt. Heck, it's a game and I'm just looking to have some fun then go have a beer and laugh a bit.

Personally, I can afford any titan that you care to put on the internet but will never purchase papercraft or resin out of personal preference so that leaves "official" models out for now. The good news is, again, nobody that I've ever met seems to care a bit.

The guy talking about the IG army reminded me of the sweet undead IG army I saw. A local guy had a vampire counts army that he got tired of playing so converted the whole thing over to IG; that was cool.

Dont get me wrong, I also play fantasy and love the vampire counts fluff.....I however despise the skeleton and zombie models currently in production and find that Mantic produces a much more realistic and dynamic product (and cheaper, although that is not a deciding factor) and though I do like some of the new Dark elf stuff I still like the alternate DE army that is sold on CMON (cant remember company right now). As I enjoy painting and modeling even more than playing I would consider buying them, painting them and playing them with my friends, but I would be hard pressed to put them on the table against an opponent I did not know, and I would never try to justify trying to take them to an entry fee type event (Nova, Adepticon etc)

I own a ton of the Mantic undead and agree completely that they're much better models than the current GW zombies and skellies but it's mainly because the GW range is so old. Kind of like Bretonnians; the Perry Brother models make much better Brettonians than GW's.

The VC/IG army was a trip though (actually, I think it was a DKOK army). Completely converted with lasguns on the zombies.

Well it looks like you chaps have managed to get back to gentlemanly discussion so thanks for that! It's just toy soldiers after all. When it makes your blood pressure rise, it's no longer worth it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The price argument just offends me, as it basically boils down to "I won't play you because you didn't pay enough money to play me."

No, that's not the argument at all. The argument is "I won't play you because you brought a proxy model that looks nothing like the real thing, and your only justification is that it's cheap". The model doesn't look like a Warhound, so why should it be a Warhound? Because you want the powerful Warhound rules?

Man, reading this thread hasn't altered any of my perceptions on the Leviathan subject, but has me utterly convinced that Peregrine needs to switch to decaff. Down boy!


But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds. I'm building my tau themed warhound out of a Metal Gear Rex model that isn't quite big enough to foot the bill, but so what? The only guy who would say no to these models is going to be TFG, and you know he's going to cause problems anyway so who cares if he's causing problems over your stuff?


And then there's the Warbringer Maximus:
http://www.tsipisgames.com/product-category/large-walkers/

So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.

 bossfearless wrote:
But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds.

Yes, and I hate that this happens. I hate that most of the time Apocalypse is reduced to going to walmart, buying a bunch of cheap toys, and putting as many D-weapons as possible on the table.

The only guy who would say no to these models is going to be TFG, and you know he's going to cause problems anyway so who cares if he's causing problems over your stuff?

Or just someone who values the fluff of the game and wants to imagine an epic battle in the 40k universe, not a bunch of random anime robots pretending to be titans.

(Also, Tau don't have titans, so there's a valid fluff reason to dislike your model even if you make a good one.)

And then there's the Warbringer Maximus:
http://www.tsipisgames.com/product-category/large-walkers/

Which is a completely different situation since it's a GW design for a unit that has no model, and follows that GW design as accurately as possible. The Leviathan, on the other hand, looks nothing like a Warhound and the only reason to give it the Warhound's rules is that it's a cheap titan-shaped object.

So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.

No they don't. Some people might choose to allow them, but they don't have a right to be there. And if you want to accuse people of TFG behavior, well, I could say the same about acting like you're entitled to use whatever random proxy models you can find at the local walmart.

 Peregrine wrote:

So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.

No they don't. Some people might choose to allow them, but they don't have a right to be there. And if you want to accuse people of TFG behavior, well, I could say the same about acting like you're entitled to use whatever random proxy models you can find at the local walmart.

Yeah, cause Walmart routinely stocks Dreamforge Leviathans and Kotobukiya MG-Rex models. You're confusing hundred-plus dollar models with three dollar toddler toys. In the end, guys who go out of their way to ban other people from using their preferred models are likely just trying to defend their own obscenely large collection of overpriced FW kits. On the bright side, Apoc games tend to have to be set up far out in advance to get everyone organized and together for the whole day, so that gives players time to confer on these issues and weed out the model(s) or player(s) that are going to cause problems. It likely boils down to your individual gaming group and their preferences as to what will actually get fielded in the game, but then while you're playing you're more than likely to have a guy from the Peregrine school of thought (read: Ken from Armada Games) walk by the table, see everyone having a good time with proxy models, and throw a massive fit.

 bossfearless wrote:
Yeah, cause Walmart routinely stocks Dreamforge Leviathans and Kotobukiya MG-Rex models.

Not those specifically, but I've seen plenty of cheap toys on Apocalypse tables.

You're confusing hundred-plus dollar models with three dollar toddler toys.

Not really. The only difference is the price tag. The models are just as inappropriate.

In the end, guys who go out of their way to ban other people from using their preferred models are likely just trying to defend their own obscenely large collection of overpriced FW kits.

Or just people who are tired of having the fluff of their game ruined by having a bunch of random toys on the table instead of proper 40k armies.

Seriously guys, stop replying to the obvious bait posts. There's a reason he responds to very specific things and ignores everything else.

 Yonan wrote:
Agree 100% on the Imperial Guard infantry. If only the cadians weren't so "heroic"... I prefer virtually any other range of basic troopers. I'm torn on the tanks though, with a love/hate thing.

Alternative IG infantry are a wonderful thing. They might actually be the most attractive part of the modelling hobby for me. With the other armies you can get different paint jobs, or the very rare alternate model or painstaking mass conversion. But with IG? There are more accessible options for representing your soldiers out there than there are models for every other army! I love the variety I can choose from, and the reduced price of some of them doesn't hurt, either. It's a great way to add character to a collection.

 Peregrine wrote:

So yeah, third party models have every right to be on the table in 40k and Apoc.

No they don't. Some people might choose to allow them, but they don't have a right to be there.

Where in the rulebook did it say that only models from GW are valid?

Soo......what I have gathered from reading all the wonderful "constructive" criticism on this thread.

-Spending 100 dollars on a model for fun proxying as something out of your price range qualifies you as a cheapskate. There is no hobby side, only official models!

-Using repeated insults is perfectly fine, because you aren't trying to bully someone you'll never meet into doing things your way, you are just showing them the virtuous path you walk on.

-Titans are equipped with a pile of D-weapons that fire out other D-weapons. You are TFG if you like Titans.


Wow, how times have changed since the 90's, when I started.

I'm just throwing this pic of a 15mm Crusader conversion out there from the Dreamforge thread in Rumors. It epitomizes everything I love about the hobby side of 40K.

 Peregrine wrote:


Or just people who are tired of having the fluff of their game ruined by having a bunch of random toys on the table instead of proper 40k armies.

Keep your fluff out of my game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 bossfearless wrote:
But for reals, once you get to Apoc games, you get all sorts of ridiculous counts-as, proxying and conversions/scratch builds.

Yes, and I hate that this happens. I hate that most of the time Apocalypse is reduced to going to walmart, buying a bunch of cheap toys, and putting as many D-weapons as possible on the table.

Thats fine. You're entitled to your opinion on the use of non-GW models and proxies, and its a perfectly valid strance. All you have to do is say no when someone asks your permission to use such a thing in your game. The thing is...

Or just people who are tired of having the fluff of their game ruined by having a bunch of random toys on the table instead of proper 40k armies.

If you're not participating in the game, then its not your game, period. You have no right to dictate what other people do when they play Warhammer 40K without you. If people want to invent their own fluff for their own games and their actual opponents consent to it, using original characters, entirely original races, original and unofficial models and even a mix of proxies and official rules/profiles than thats their business, not yours. All they need is their actualy opponent's consent, not you.



Do you not see the arrogance in your insistence that...

... nobody else (i.e. strangers off the internet who you'll never meet) should ever do it because YOU don't like it?
... that they should not have the right to use whatever models and unit profiles they like when their actual opponents consent to it?
...that if they can't afford or build the model then they don't have the right to use the unit?
...if they want to use a Titan, they're a TFG who just wants lots of D weapons? (wheras someone with $$$$$ to blow on 3 or more official GW Titans is not motivated by D weapons?)


You've made your opinion clear ad nauseam. In the unlikely event that we ever play a game, and I have a Leviathan that I want to use, if you say no thats absolutely fine. I'll either come up with an alternate list that does not include the titan, or I'll look for another opponent who will consent to it. If someone else does consent to it, and you're not involved in the game then its none of your business.


Also, have you seen this video yet?





Based on your comments and behaviour in this thread, your persistent insults, sneering, and arrogant contempt of everyone who dares have a different opinion to you and who dare do something that you disapprove of in their own games, I'll be adding you to my ignore list in future, once this thread dies down. I can't say I'm interested in the opinions of such an unpleasant person.

I suggest you do the same, and we can both live in blissful ignorance of each other from now on.

Hee hee...cookies. Om nom nom.

@aegisgrimm: That khorne leviathan is pretty sweet. That's the 15mm version? My buddy out here has the regular sized one (28mm?) and I'm interested to see a size comparison between the two.

I think we can all agree that someone whose sig contains the words "sell me your fw superheavies" is probably not in touch with the economic issues that contribute to most of the lower cost titan alternatives. I sense a rebuttal to the tune of "you want cheap, go play clix!" in the works.

Peregrine may not be the nicest person around, but bashing him like you guys are doing degrades you to the same level.

-Using alternative models that look very different from 40k models break the immersion. They contradict the fluff, and the fluff is one of the main reasons people play 40k. Things like Tau titans make no sense in 40k fluff and therefore I would not want to play against such a model.

-Using alternative models without converting them to look like they fit in the 40k universe makes you a cheapskate IMO.
Furthermore, alternative models should be (almost) the same size as the official model, both for gameplay and immersion purposes.

Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.

In short, conversions are okay as long as they look 'fluffy'.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Peregrine may not be the nicest person around, but bashing him like you guys are doing degrades you to the same level.

We're not "bashing" him, hes bashing everyone else that disagrees with him. Did you miss all the derogatory insults and sneers hes been making about people who do things with their models and games that he disapproves of?

-Using alternative models that look very different from 40k models break the immersion. They contradict the fluff.

In short, conversions are okay as long as they look 'fluffy'.

Thats subjective.

If people don't like the idea, thats fine. Thats their opinion and they don't have to play with people who do it. But they have NO right to demand that other people not do it, as Peregrine has been doing.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.

As Pergrine would say...you're a cheap skate who just wants lots of Imperial Guard as cheap as possible. Use the official models or play a different game.

I for one am glad that people are showing distaste in Peregrine

And i was looking at the guard and interesting to note: The Heavy Bolter.

You got ones that are kneeling with a tall shielded version, some sitting on one with small profile and some lying down with a very low profile. All of these look very different and feature different shapes and sizes (and different loading systems). An extremely common weapon that is produced on a massive scale has so much variation in how the gun works, how it is set up and depends on how the target users are going to use it.

Why then cant a titan be the same? The rules dont change for the heavy bolters despite having at least 4 different versions i can see (6 if you include the FW ones). Despite looking completely different in size and set up (some have wheels, some have chain fed, some have gravity fed, tripods etc etc) they all use the same rules. Some dont even have a base.

If you can accept that bolters (and lasguns for that matter) come in varieties to suit the needs of the users then i am cetain it is the same for vehicles.

Elysians have a different sentinel to "standard".

The list can go on. I would argue the case (although rare, but the GK are supposed to be rare and i see them all the time ) that some leviathans are made for different circumstances and different users. The fluff shows heaps of variation in their official models so why cant we show variation in our current models that don't give us choices?

 Iron_Captain wrote:


Apart from that, I have nothing against the use of alternative models. In fact, alternative models are just great for the IG, as they are supposed to be extremely varied. I use the Eisenkern Stormtroopers for my IG army and they look great.

Got any pictures on Dakka?

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Furthermore, alternative models should be (almost) the same size as the official model, both for gameplay and immersion purposes.

I've seen Riptides being modeled in as low pose as possible, making them over 2" shorter than the norm. GW talks only about the base size and even then gives the liberty to use what looks cool.

My Rogue Trader era marines are shorter than the current ones, would they also break immersion?

I do not know what Peregrine's issue is. He should be happy when players use alternative models. If I already did not have a huge number of figures I would try to find some alternatives just to look different.

To be quite honest, I see where Peregrine is coming from. Where do you draw the line?
A shoebox is cheaper than a Land Raider Spartan, and the cardboard is easier to work with than Forge World resin, and in my opinion looks just as cool.

I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I mean, what audacity someone would have to tell me I I can't use my shoebox!!

Thats a straw man argument. Asides from the fact that noone here has actually said they want to use shoeboxes as Land Raiders...even if you did want to, all you need is your opponent's permission, period.


Opponent says no > use something else, or find a different opponent who will consent to it.

Opponent says yes > you get to use it.

Peregrine doesn't like it > completely irrelevant if hes not your opponent. He has no authority and influence over games he's not involved in, however much he likes to think so.


(regarding shoeboxes and other weird objects used as stand ins...I wouldn't like it either, and normally I wouldn't consent to it, except when my opponent/friend/etc wants to try out various units proxying random objects before committing to buying a model, in which case I might do it as a favour).