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This is a good conversion option for the Khorne abomination. The torso from the Khorne thing and the kegs from a 15mm leviathan.

Call me elitist if you want, but I wouldnt allow it. Just the same as I wouldnt allow $40 WW2 Tank models from Kmart to be used as Baneblades or shoe boxes or anything else. There is a proper model for the Warhound, buy it or dont play it. Thats what is great about APOC, you can play all the models you own. If you dont happen to own a broken superheavy, well okay bring what you DO have......I get it, the are expensive, they are not for everyone or everyones budget.....use formations and play what you have. It def comes off as "I want to run 4x D Weapon shots a turn, BUUUUUUUUUT I dont want to drop the $$$$ for the actual model"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:
This is a good conversion option for the Khorne abomination. The torso from the Khorne thing and the kegs from a 15mm leviathan.

I actually did a walking conversion on that guy using those legs, However I extended his mid section and got rid of the "Penis Cannon" it just didnt look right

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
So if we don't have the money to buy Forgeworld's over priced and horribly modeled apoc units, we're not supposed to play? I bought a Leviathan for my grey knight army because I refuse to pay $600 for something that I have to spend weeks fixing because the resin mold work sucks. It took 2 1/2 weeks to fix the pieces of my thunderhawk that I saved my @$$ off to buy. I got it and wanted to cry. I had zero choice but to completely seal it up which is not what I wanted. I wanted a full blown masterpiece sitting on my shelf at the head of my Raven Guard army and had to half @$$ it because nothing and I mean nothing lined up. If they did it on the thunderhawk, it's safe to assume it'll be like that on a titan. I'm not going thru that again. For the prices they're asking for their stuff, it should be perfect.

Look, this is.... I know what you mean, but this is the game. I'm going to put aside the poor craftsmanship and quality control of Forge World, which is inexcusable - but also not really salient to the main point. The main point is your first sentence: "because I can't afford x, does that mean I can't play with x"? And that's not really even a forgeworld issue. That's a basic 40K issue. Should I be able to use a Rhino as a Baneblade because I cannot afford a Baneblade? No, I don't think I should. And again, I hasten to add, my point of objection is not at all related to the economics; it's about the fact they simply don't scale up well next to each other.

I know analogy is always somewhat suspect, but I think that's a good one. Would you allow a Rhino proxy as a Baneblade? It's fundamentally not a different argument.

It's not fair that I cannot afford the millions of dollars you need to get into yachting; but that's what the game is.

I love those Lord of Skulls as a walker conversions; but I think they have the same issues as this does. It significantly changes the way the model works by elevating the weapons, yes? It's normally sort of squat, and now it can shoot over terrain? For me it's not about the economics at all - I'd accept cardboard scratchbuilds if you made some effort - it's about how functionally equivalent it is to the original as far as dimensions go.


Those smaller Leviathans are going to make the best Dreadknights ever, though.


jesus, my spelling

But that's not really the same. It's not a shoe box or a cheap a$$ WW2 model. It's still a very nice model that cost $150! It not like I stole one of my kids toy robots and slapped it on the table. Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.
Honestly, if you saw this on the table you have no idea what it was? It's a huge walking robot! It's not a dread and way to small for a reaver so that really only leaves a warhound.

 sickening wrote:
Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.

Take a look at that image in the first post. Look how much larger the profile of the Warhound is from overhead as compared to the Leviathan; how much easier it would be to hit with a blast weapon even on a scatter because of it's size. It appears from the image to have a footprint nearly twice as large as the Leviathan - whereas the Leviathan has all the same firepower and is a smaller target. That really seems like an unfair advantage to me.

Also, I don't think the Warhound can have a melee weapon, right? So that's an issue as well.

 Peregrine wrote:
Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.

Seriously? You're suggesting bringing a Titan is for only those who can afford it?

Play it as whatever you want. Make a Warhound out of paper, it's even cheaper.

 Ouze wrote:

 sickening wrote:
Granted its not ass cool but I really don't see it effecting the game play at all.

Take a look at that image in the first post. Look how much larger the profile of the Warhound is from overhead as compared to the Leviathan; how much easier it would be to hit with a blast weapon even on a scatter because of it's size. It appears from the image to have a footprint nearly twice as large as the Leviathan - whereas the Leviathan has all the same firepower and is a smaller target. That really seems like an unfair advantage to me.

Also, I don't think the Warhound can have a melee weapon, right? So that's an issue as well.

It does have interchangeable arms.

It your worried about his foot print just put him on a bigger base.

 Peregrine wrote:
Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.

You're, right, it looks better then the silly and really unrealistic Two chicken legs that the Warhound is...

I would.

I think its close enough in size, and I would it for one reason.

The leviathan looks cool.

In fact, it would be awesome to paint it up like a giant gray knight.

Now, if I ran a weapon other than the giant Gatling gun, I would try to scratch build some weapons for it that might look at bit closer to the fw ones.

 Peregrine wrote:

It's not that I hate cheap models, it's that I hate the fact that the motivation for a lot of Apocalypse players seems to be "get the cheapest possible titan-shaped object and get more D-weapons" rather than "get the most awesome model I can find". So you get stuff like cardboard titans, cheap toys from walmart with a few 40k bits glued on, barely-painted models with half the pieces missing, etc. And the Leviathan is just more of that attitude: there was much more talk about how cheap it is and how it will be a great titan proxy than how cool the model is for its own sake, or whether it's an appropriate equivalent to a 40k titan.

What you just described is the reason I won't play apoc any more for the most part. It's because Apoc turns into the d-weapon arms race. I love the warhound modle form FW, but I've learned now if i ever did many to justify spending that much on a model I would never touch the turbo lasers as this point.

BUT. Well I agree with almost everything you are saying, I do think you might be projecting your own bad experiences with the d-weapon arms race onto the players who would consider using the Dream forge kit. I don't think it's unreasonable for some players to like the idea. I also think your being to hard on the dream forge kits aesthetics.

The best bet for the OP is to get the opinion of people you are actually going to play, rather than be swayed by a bunch of guys on Dakka, which in all reality, is a community which is about 50% composed of gaming snobs.

I count myself lucky that I grew up on 2nd and 3rd edition modelling awesomeness, not off the shelf Khornemowers.

All this talk about the size and all, but what of the guys who have and play Armorcast Warhounds?...

They are even shorther then the Leviathan...

So a guy who comes at the table with this venerable(although silly looking) model, by you guys standard, couldn't play it because its not the same exact size of the FW Warhound, although it is a Warhound?...

There is a 2 cm difference between the leviathan and Warhound, its the most silly argument i've heard for a long time.

All this "model for advantage" crap is good when you play a competitf game like in tournaments, but APOC is not meant to be competitive, ist meant to play with models you like.

of course there wxill be guys who will abuse it and show up with shoeboxes, awkwardly painted in the same shceme as the rest of the army, i've seen it, but the next time those kind of guys ask if they can join the game, we say "Okay, but your shoeboxes stays home", and thats it.

Here the Leviathan is much more intricate and complexe and better looking that a kitbashed cardboard shoebox for christs sake!

You don't like when people shows up with Transformer toys painted black?, ok, but please don't compare this to the leviathan kit, wich is a Dream kit for hobbyists, it has so many pieces and complexity that it makes look FW kits like Puzzles for Children!.

Why does the volume of a Leviathan matter against the greater bulk of a Warhound? Because of TLOS garbage?

Seriously? Since when has Apocolypse been anything other than static gunlines where terrain is largely irrelevant? Half the time the movement phase is irrelevant except for infantry.

I do have to admit, that I would suggest that anyone using the dreamforge model try to do the following;

* see if you can make him a tad bit taller, bigger base, etc.
* try to mount him on a fairly large base, for blasts.
* see if you can make the weapons look at bit closer to the actual ones.

Model it well, give it a good paint job - make it look like you put a lot of effort in it - as opposed to a cardboard "I want D weapons" proxy that still looks like a milk carton.

This will help in dealing with honest concerns about modeling for advantage, or in helping identify the weapons.

This should satisfy any reasonable person, or at least any person you might want to play with.

Frankly I find the normal sized Dreamforge model to be oddly-sized. I would much rather buy several 15mm scaled ones and use them as perfectly scaled Knights that fit the imagery of Knights extremely well.

 Ouze wrote:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
So if we don't have the money to buy Forgeworld's over priced and horribly modeled apoc units, we're not supposed to play? I bought a Leviathan for my grey knight army because I refuse to pay $600 for something that I have to spend weeks fixing because the resin mold work sucks. It took 2 1/2 weeks to fix the pieces of my thunderhawk that I saved my @$$ off to buy. I got it and wanted to cry. I had zero choice but to completely seal it up which is not what I wanted. I wanted a full blown masterpiece sitting on my shelf at the head of my Raven Guard army and had to half @$$ it because nothing and I mean nothing lined up. If they did it on the thunderhawk, it's safe to assume it'll be like that on a titan. I'm not going thru that again. For the prices they're asking for their stuff, it should be perfect.

Look, this is.... I know what you mean, but this is the game. I'm going to put aside the poor craftsmanship and quality control of Forge World, which is inexcusable - but also not really salient to the main point. The main point is your first sentence: "because I can't afford x, does that mean I can't play with x"? And that's not really even a forgeworld issue. That's a basic 40K issue. Should I be able to use a Rhino as a Baneblade because I cannot afford a Baneblade? No, I don't think I should. And again, I hasten to add, my point of objection is not at all related to the economics; it's about the fact they simply don't scale up well next to each other.

I know analogy is always somewhat suspect, but I think that's a good one. Would you allow a Rhino proxy as a Baneblade? It's fundamentally not a different argument.

It's not fair that I cannot afford the millions of dollars you need to get into yachting; but that's what the game is.

I love those Lord of Skulls as a walker conversions; but I think they have the same issues as this does. It significantly changes the way the model works by elevating the weapons, yes? It's normally sort of squat, and now it can shoot over terrain? For me it's not about the economics at all - I'd accept cardboard scratchbuilds if you made some effort - it's about how functionally equivalent it is to the original as far as dimensions go.


Those smaller Leviathans are going to make the best Dreadknights ever, though.


jesus, my spelling

So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok? If so, it seems as though its the same thing. Taking some non-gw/fw product and making it work for a fraction of the cost.

Since the Leviathan has smaller footprint then would you accept it with a wider and taller base to make it easier to pie plate and taller for shooting purposes? A decent scenic base would work to remedy some of the issues of size i would think. Or if you have a friendly group of players, would it be more accepted to work up your own datasheet and downgrade the stats for the warhound to something suited to the Leviathan? Example...not as many structure points, no option for d weapons, lower points cost, etc. The warhound couldn't have been the smallest titan in the 40k universe. If it is then I'll accept that but for friendly games, I guess us Leviathan owners/users will just have to keep looking for opponents that will allow it.

The warhound couldn't have been the smallest titan in the 40k universe

Warhounds are the smallest Titan. Smaller than that are "Knights", which don't carry void shields or other Titan-esque equipment. They have small reactors, so usually nothing as weaponry like Turbolasers. And Dreamforge models actually fit the modern 40K imagery better than the old 6mm Epic models.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Seriously? You're suggesting bringing a Titan is for only those who can afford it?

Or those who want to invest the effort to make a proper scratchbuild that looks as good as the real thing. If you really want a titan because it's an awesome model then save up your money and buy one. If you really want a titan because the rules are powerful then you don't deserve to use one.

Play it as whatever you want. Make a Warhound out of paper, it's even cheaper.

Or you could just accept that your Apocalypse army won't have a titan. It's not the end of the world if you don't have more D-weapons.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
All this talk about the size and all, but what of the guys who have and play Armorcast Warhounds?...

I hate the old Armorcast models. They're just plain ugly and an embarrassment to the 40k name. But, unlike the Leviathan, they were sold as official Warhound models produced under license from GW so there's a better argument for allowing them to continue to be legal. The Leviathan doesn't have this history, and its only claim to being allowed in 40k is that it's cheap.

There is a 2 cm difference between the leviathan and Warhound, its the most silly argument i've heard for a long time.

Again, it's not just the height, it's the bulk of the model. The Warhound is just a much bigger model with a lot more presence on the table compared to the Leviathan.

All this "model for advantage" crap is good when you play a competitf game like in tournaments, but APOC is not meant to be competitive, ist meant to play with models you like.

Yes, play with the models you like, as long as they're actual 40k models. That doesn't mean you have to allow every random toy someone wants to call a titan so they can get more D-weapons on the table.

You don't like when people shows up with Transformer toys painted black?, ok, but please don't compare this to the leviathan kit, wich is a Dream kit for hobbyists, it has so many pieces and complexity that it makes look FW kits like Puzzles for Children!.

So? If it's a dream kit then have fun building and painting one. I don't see why that means it needs to have 40k rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok? If so, it seems as though its the same thing. Taking some non-gw/fw product and making it work for a fraction of the cost.

The answer to that depends on their reason for doing it.

If they've made their army with real-world kits because it fits the theme and invested as much time and effort as it would take to build a "real" DKoK army (including making everything WYSIWYG and roughly the same size/shape and adding appropriate 40k elements so it isn't just real-world stuff) then sure, it should be allowed.

If they've made their army with real-world kits because it's cheaper and their main concern is maximizing their firepower per dollar then no, it shouldn't be allowed.

The problem with the Leviathan is that it isn't WYSIWYG and the most popular reason for getting one is that it's a cheap titan-shaped object that gets more D-weapons on the table without paying $500 for a real Warhound, so that puts it solidly in the second category.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
So would you be ok with playing against an army that used real world military models proxied in for forgeworld/gw models? Say for instance someone wants to make a full german looking dkok army and for their vehicles they use german military vehicles and kit bash in some gw/forgeworld parts to make them look a little more proper? If the size is close to what it should be would that scenario be ok?

Yes, in my book - emphasis in your quote mine.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
Since the Leviathan has smaller footprint then would you accept it with a wider and taller base to make it easier to pie plate and taller for shooting purposes?

I would, yes.

I played epic in the day,guess what folks the epic knights are smaller than the war hound.The knights are a one man walker configured as the Dreamforge walkers.The Warhound has a crew of three.Yeah this is just not close to a Warhound but with only some armor added at the mid section it would be a perfect Knight.Tweak the rules for the Eldar wraithknight ad imperial weapons stats and it could work .

You can do whatever you like with your opponent's agreement. Every single argument made here against the use of a Leviathan is proxy is made irrelevant in the event that an opponent is found with a relaxed enough attitude to accept it.

Personally, I would allow proxies, and would use them myself, so long as it bore at least some reasonable resemblence to whatever it was supposed to represent, and my opponent didn't try to exploit my unfamliarity with that model to their own advantage (i.e. lying and being inconsistent throughout the game about the weapons the unit is equipped with).

Rules issues regarding size and base size are easily solved. Just use a larger, correct size base, and use the base to boost the height of the model. Or just agree that for LOS purposes it will always be visible.

This example would IMO be ok and I'd have no problems with it.

And with a regular opponent (i.e. a friend), I'd even let them proxy a model that looked absolutely nothing like what its supposed to be if for instance they just wanted to try out a unit before buying a model (Barbies? Transformers?)

If I wanted to use a proxy model, and my opponent said no, I would either use an alternate list that doesn't include that model/unit or I'd just look for a different opponent. I'm eventually going to use a 100% proxy army for LOTR, using Gripping Beast Anglo Saxons as Rohirrim, because (a) its more cost effective (b) I like the models far more (c) they're better quality IMO.


Its YOUR game, do whatever is fun for you and your opponent and don't let strangers off the internet dictate what you should and should not do with your own miniature collection and games.


I would say that not being able to afford a poorly made $400 model isn't very fun at all.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I would say that not being able to afford a poorly made $400 model isn't very fun at all.

So don't use a Warhound then. I really don't see why people seem to think that their army needs titans (with D-weapons usually) no matter how awful their proxy model will be. Just build and paint the awesome models that fit within your budget and take pride in your army.

Big stompy robots are fun. Leviathans are big stompy robots that look better than titans, are cheaper than titans, and can suitably replace them in 40k. No need to do without.

 Yonan wrote:
Big stompy robots are fun. Leviathans are big stompy robots that look better than titans, are cheaper than titans, and can suitably replace them in 40k. No need to do without.

Only if you're fine with using a proxy that is not the same size as the real model, doesn't look very much like the real model, and doesn't have weapons that are even close to WYSIWYG. At that point why not just buy some cheap robot toys from walmart and call them titans?

I like the one with the skull head, and the sythe personally.

I think the player with the model should make some Knight stats for a 40K version, I believe the Epic scale Knight was a vallid model, so just make up some 40k stat's for this thing. Because technically yes, there is a significant size difference that could help out the player with the proxy mode vs the actual Warhound Titan model. If the rules for the "Knight" were reasonable then I'd say go for it, but not as a proxy Warhound Titan. I actually think it's a great looking model, for a Warhammer 40K Knight it would be perfect!
Yes, the price is huge, save up...

aaaand circles again, time to bail!

Someone in our player group brought one to our halloween apocalypse. It was gorgeously painted and he lit it up with some LEDs. He played it as a warhound and nobody even questioned that.

That being said ... im okay with someone not wanting to play against such a proxy. Unfortunately that means not playing in our clubs apoc games at all for this person. Who cares what some snobby people somewhere on the other side of this planet think about it if your friends are okay with it?

Well, I guess we would allow it in our apoc games.

D-weapons D-weapons bawwwwwwwwwww D-weapons!

For the people whining about d-weapons and unfairly characterizing anyone who wants this model as someone who simply wants more d-weapons, they're the only ones here who seem like they actually care about winning, what with wanting to limit the firepower of their opponents and complaining about not being able to hit them with TLOS as easily. Not to mention that some of those people have written off the game anyways so they're being snobs just for the sake of being snobs.

If you spent the time and money to assemble and paint one of these Leviathans and you want to use it in a game against me, go right ahead man. I'm not going to deny you and all the hard work you because of some insecurity about treating a game of 40k (Apocalypse, no less!) as some competitive cowadoodee testosterone-fest where losing is unacceptable. You want to use a huge cool-looking walker in a game, and that's alright be me. I'll probably ask you which forge world recovered the pattern for your Leviathan Titan, too!

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Wow. That looks boring as hell. I'd walk out on that game.

Also, this model IS sexy and was fun as hell to paint and model. People that say otherwise have different opinions than I do.