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Wow. All I can add is that I'm very glad that in my nearly 20 years of playing 40k, I have never met people with attitudes even remotely similar to those exhibited by some posters in this thread. I own a leviathan and have never played a game of Apoc, nor plan to; it's a beautiful model that was incredibly fun to build. I've purchased one forgeworld model, a Tau barracuda that was torture to assemble with a great deal of time spent straightening various pieces. I will never go through that experience again; I don't care how many people say we have ti purchase official forgeworld or spend countless hours building some paper monstrosity to fit their ideal. It's not their game. It's my game and the game of all the, thankfully, reasonable people in my community who wouldn't bat an eye at a leviathan on the table.

You would think people playing an imaginary game that involves toy soldiers would be able to imagine that leviathan weaponry is a 40k equivalent...or just practice a little courtesy and ask if they become confused. How often do people play Apoc with every heavy that FW makes that they instantly know what each weapon is? I for one would have to stop my opponent and ask about "official" models. If you're concerned about the height, imagine the model stands a bit taller. Not a large enough footprint? Give an extra couple of inches from the base. You're already imaginging that the little plastic soldiers' guns are making "pew pew" sounds and are bleeding multihued blood...

Hey guys just felt like throwing in my two cents, I play death Korps of krieg and own a reaver titan and I have two styles of game play, when I'm at my store and when I'm at my house. At my Store, I'm usually playing against someone's tourney or league army and it's super competitive, I usually like to use my imperial armour rule set but I'm always ready to play standard ig if my opponent doesn't allow it. At my store, when a large apoc game is held proxies and cardboard titans are not allowed and I like that. Seeing all the really expensive models in one place really has a nice effect on the game.
On the other hand at home, my small group of friends and I never play on a competitive level. We play campaigns and pick up games and large scenario games roughly guided by the apoc book, ( we think the apoc book is pretty dumb ). I always use my death Korps if krieg ruleset and when we play Apoc or are "large scenario games" I let them use proxies cheaper models to represent stompas and warhound titans, Becuase 3 reasons, 1 I love seeing the conversion work my friends do and the ideas they come up with( I built my little cousins two stompas myself...) 2 some of my friends can't afford something that big, and I allow the proxy or scratch built models so the game can be a little more balanced plus they want to try out using the big models to 3 the most important reason WE ARE JUST TRYING TO HAVA FUN.
So in conclusion
When your playing at a store with people you don't normally play against, you must be open to not using a model or a set of rules, wether it's a scratch built titan you built at home or a completely forge world death Korps of krieg army you spent a ton of money on, it goes both ways. But when your playing with friends, do Watever you want, hell play with plastic green army men if you want as long as everyone is having fun.

But I have to agree on some points said earlier...
In a competitive environment, the levithian is nothing like the warhound titan when it comes to size, the body is no where near as bulky so it provides a disadvantage to it's opponent when it comes to LOS behind very large buildings and when using blast, ordanance, and barrage weapons.
Also the huge rush to put as many d weapons on the table is stupid, and over powered, the reason my friends and I don't use the apoc book is because it makes things stupid and over powered, buy one or two so you can have enoungh to keep up if you have enough money to buy 4 levithians you have enough to buy a real warhound.... A good rule might be for every levithian past the 1st one you must also have a warhound, Idk just throwing something out there.
So there is my lengthy 2 cents, thanks for reading
Tony A

Hey if you want to use a Knight in your game of 40k you better use the official model



There's no way I'll let anyone proxy the Leviathan

If I see anyone using a Leviathan I'll throw it on the ground

The anti-Leviathan people are talking about fielding 5 for the actually dollar cost of 1 warhound just to spam d-weapons. I don't recall any of the pro Leviathan people asking to field 5 of em. I just want to field one Titan just to have a Titan on the field. That's all I would want. I completely agree that someone spamming 5 Leviathans for the d-weapons is bs. If they're doing it in that aspect I completely agree that it's wrong. I guess a lot of it is agree to disagree and get the permission of your opponent prior to bringing and/or fielding it. But if someone has a hand me down army from another player, is it truly fair to expect them to run an apoc formation of say termies to offset a Titan with d-weapons? I don't agree with that train of thought. Seems like some players that have dumped a ton of money in their armies are worried about being trumped by an army that costs 1/10th of what they paid.

I don't know anyone that has a warhound and haven't seen one assembled but can anyone say if they can be modeled as low as possible like some tau players model riptides kneeling and hunched over to create smaller targets?

As agnosto said, it's a game using toy soldiers. Apoc isn't a tournament setting so why not let some things slide a little. It's not as bad as someone bringing painted coke cans to sub in as drop pods. But I've let that go before in a friendly game. They're roughly the same size and my friend wanted to try out some new tactics so I said I didn't care at all. I told him not to bring that to the flgs as he'd probably get laughed out of the building. It's game for fun. If someone wants to buy gundam models and proxy those in for wraithknights...so be it if they're close to the height and the weapons are close. I know nothing about wraithknights so I'll be asking all game what it's equipped with anyway. I'll agree that models like that should never be allowed in competitive environments but like someone else said, apoc isn't meant to be competitive. It's meant for you be able to use the majority of your models. During apoc is someone drops in gundams, coke cans, transformers, walmart bots, whatever...I'm good with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:
Hey if you want to use a Knight in your game of 40k you better use the official model



There's no way I'll let anyone proxy the Leviathan

If I see anyone using a Leviathan I'll throw it on the ground

Wow! That doesn't look like a sad piece of crap at all! And I'm sure if someone took a pic of a Leviathan next to this heap I'm sure there's no way it would be nearly the same size. Unless judgedoug is being sarcastic! Which I really hope is the case!

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Frankly I find the normal sized Dreamforge model to be oddly-sized. I would much rather buy several 15mm scaled ones and use them as perfectly scaled Knights that fit the imagery of Knights extremely well.

I can't wait for the HH books to cover knight-titan rules. Like you said the 15mm leviathans fit that bill perfectly. That and you might actully be able to use a knight more then once or twice a year in a game.
=P

I might let it swing for a simple game against me once, but if we're doing this for the simple sake of cost/aesthetics....you open up a pandora's box of people bringing all kinds of odd toys to a game to make them whatever they want that has powerful rules.

In a game where multiple players are going to show up and play Apoc...and I'm running the game....no way in hell. It doesn't have the dimensions for a world of true LoS and its 'base diameter' is much smaller for in-game effects and hiding behind terrain.

 agnosto wrote:
Wow. All I can add is that I'm very glad that in my nearly 20 years of playing 40k, I have never met people with attitudes even remotely similar to those exhibited by some posters in this thread. I own a leviathan and have never played a game of Apoc, nor plan to; it's a beautiful model that was incredibly fun to build. I've purchased one forgeworld model, a Tau barracuda that was torture to assemble with a great deal of time spent straightening various pieces. I will never go through that experience again; I don't care how many people say we have ti purchase official forgeworld or spend countless hours building some paper monstrosity to fit their ideal. It's not their game. It's my game and the game of all the, thankfully, reasonable people in my community who wouldn't bat an eye at a leviathan on the table.

You would think people playing an imaginary game that involves toy soldiers would be able to imagine that leviathan weaponry is a 40k equivalent...or just practice a little courtesy and ask if they become confused. How often do people play Apoc with every heavy that FW makes that they instantly know what each weapon is? I for one would have to stop my opponent and ask about "official" models. If you're concerned about the height, imagine the model stands a bit taller. Not a large enough footprint? Give an extra couple of inches from the base. You're already imaginging that the little plastic soldiers' guns are making "pew pew" sounds and are bleeding multihued blood...

Agreed!

And yes, Raven, judgedoug was being sarcastic . The above pic is gold.

Posting here because I painted the warhound I'm the first post. Glass somebody got some use from it.

I don't think it's a good analogue, they're similar in size but the sheer bulk of the warhound makes them too dissimilar

 Peregrine wrote:
Wouldn't allow it at all. It's too small to be a Warhound, the guns don't match, and unless it has some serious conversion work done it doesn't look like a Warhound (or a good model at all). Really the only argument in favor of allowing the Leviathan to be used in 40k is that it's cheap, and throwing a bunch of cheap proxies on the table to get the overpowered titan rules as easily as possible is TFG behavior.

What a crock. That model looks better than the FW one, and it's clearly designed better as well, if you care to take a look at the website. Does the FW one come with fully pose-able limbs, and removable weapons? Or how about a respectable price tag. To be honest I thought Titans would be bigger but now that I see the size difference, and I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...

This is a perfect example of blind fanboy faith. TFG my arse...

I like anything that brings variety to the usual boring standard models i see every week. A lot of people get to the stage where GW models are kinda dull and expensive or one or the other. In my opinion, buy 5 for the price of one. Its intellegent. Its called being smart with money. But i dont think any one has that intention anyway.

Id welcome it, money saving = awesome, and the model isnt that bad either.

Its actually repulsive to see some of the opinions (Peregrine *cough) of people here. Thats why i have spent about 20 minutes of my life at a GW store. Apparently the army i spent $$$$$ on and hours upon hours on isnt good enough because they arent cadian and so on.

In short be creative, smart with money and put in the same effort you would on a "standard" titan and no normal person in the world would refuse a game with it.

darkcloak wrote:

That model looks better than the FW one,

According to you.

and it's clearly designed better as well, if you care to take a look at the website.

Also according to you.

Does the FW one come with fully pose-able limbs,

Yes it does.

and removable weapons?

Yes it does. You even buy them separately too.

I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...

Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin. Though I imagine a significant part is due to being a GW product, but that's inherent to anything GW makes.

*Edit* It should also be pointed out that the Warhound is an older sculpt compared to the Leviathan.

 Blacksails wrote:
Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin.

Uh, maybe we don't want to go down that door

Anyway, it's a fascinating reflection on the HHHobby when a plastic robot kit for, what, $120 or so is "cheap", isn't it?

 Ouze wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin.

Uh, maybe we don't want to go down that door

Anyway, it's a fascinating reflection on the HHHobby when a plastic robot kit for, what, $120 or so is "cheap", isn't it?

Yeah, you're right.

Also sad but true with the pricing.

Ah well, I like the look of the Warhound better than the Leviathan, and I would prefer my opponent had a Warhound (or a competent scratchbuild), but I'd still play against the Leviathan.

*Edit* Well, the Warhounds cockpit detailing should for something, right? Right? Okay so its overpriced, but I still like it a lot.

 Blacksails wrote:

I have to wonder where the extra hundred dollars is...

Partly in the level of detail and casting/resin. Though I imagine a significant part is due to being a GW product, but that's inherent to anything GW makes.

*Edit* It should also be pointed out that the Warhound is an older sculpt compared to the Leviathan.

Wow..., that the biggest joke i've heard for a while now, i think i'm set for the rest of the year.

I know 3 diffrent guys who have bought respectively 2 Warhouns and a Ceastus..., guess what?, all three of them had pieces so badly cast, that they made look Puppet Wars cast from some month ago look like perfect...

One of the Titan was so damaged that the guy could only put together, ONE OF THE LEGS and the hip, the reste was just horrible, it looked like a freakin Nurgle Warhound, nice if you got the model for 50quid and planned on using it has a Nurgle dedicated Titan, not when you play Salamanders and paid 400$ for it...

People saying that, the only trait of the Dreamforge kit, is because its cheap, and compare it to something that someone whould bring and made of a Transformer toy from Walmart, should just hang himself.

it is CHEAPER, not Cheap, and thats nothing bad, you guys use this argument has if it was bad and evil that people want to keep their money for more important things, like i dunno, everyday life?...

I have a good work where i earn enough money to be in comfort even if i don't work for 4 months, but damn i would certainly not give 400$ for ONE SINGLE MODEL.

The Leviathan is Plastic, is gorgous, it as Articulated limbs that you can leave it without glue and it works contrary to the Warhound where once you've put the pose, who essentially is limited to give a really wide stance so that the freakin thing doesn't get offbalance and fall off at the tiniest edge, its a true piece of art and the SAV service from Dreamforge is top notch.

You must have missed the part I also mentioned it was an older sculpt, which consequently leads to higher rates of miscasting.

The truth of the matter is that a properly cast FW product has a very high level of detail. I'm sure many people with warhounds would also attest to that.

But once more; its an old sculpt. Miscasts happen. FW is known to very good about replacing parts that are particularly rough.

Also, three cases does not equal some universal truth.

I've also admitted its overpriced for what it is. Calm down. I get that you like the Leviathan model, and nowhere have I said it wasn't a great model.

I'm pretty laid back when it comes to proxies, but as my group reserved Apoc games for special occasions (final battle for a campaign, going away 40k bash, etc), having the right model just makes it more special. Doubly so if it's painted.

I personally don't like the DF Leviathon model as a Warhound, but I'd probably let it fly. I'd prefer we come up with rules for a Knight Titan or whatever they were called, or a "Super Dreadknight" for a Grey Knight army, but that's just me.

 kronk wrote:
I'd prefer we come up with rules for a Knight Titan or whatever they were called....

*twitch*

*twitch*

(Activates the Platuan4th Signal!)

(Passes out)

Oh, you know what I meant birthday boy!

Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...

You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.

darkcloak wrote:
Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending? What happened to the imagination and fun? /tg/'s with neckbeards, that's what! Oh and interent slang, that's making us all stupiderz...

You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.

Nothing like hyperbole to sour the mood hey?

Anyways, sounds like you're a little too upset about one or two people's opinions on a matter that has zero relevance to how you would go about the issue in reality.

I think the leviathan is ugly as sin but Id let you use it. At least it isnt a paper titan or a box. And who takes apoc seriously, anyway?

darkcloak wrote:
Nothing like a little elitism to sour the mood hey? Some guy builds a cardboard Titan and that's just fine, but someone else goes out and buys a model to use as proxy and suddenly the world is ending?

No one claimed "the world was ending".

There is a good rationale behind being OK with a cardboard titan (which closely matches the dimensions of the original), and not being OK with a proxy (which is very cool, but a poor match size-wise). You can pretend it doesn't exist if you need to invent that narrative for whatever internal reason you have; but that doesn't make it no longer a valid reason.

darkcloak wrote:
You can "fix" GW all you bloody well want, it' threads like this with comments like "if you don't have the money, you don't deserve to play it" that prove what is really broken.

Yeah I'm not on board with that line of thought. It is a game that's supposed to be fun, not a class system you use to punish people for the crime of not having hundreds of dollars to spend on a poorly-cast resin toy. I'd always be OK with a scratchbuilt proxy if an effort was made to make it look good; which is a function of time and effort rather than funds.

I would allow it, I think its a really awesome looking model

Heck if I played Apoc more regularly, I would buy one, but would add a bit more to make it look like some sort of Chaos dark mechanicum hell knight or something...

I think what people forget is imagination in Apoc. There are some crazy conversions people have made for 40k but could never use in regular 40k but I remember with Apoc (or at least in the old rules) you could make crazy conversions and play them out, heck they even made a blank PDF sheet where you could type its rules on, just so long as your opponent agrees with its rules then you could use it and fire things with it A good example of this was the minesweeper flying Ork thing that made it into the SM video game, that was made from a coke bottle IIRC and they still used that in games..

So yeah, I would deffo allow it, its not like im playing it in a tourney after all, and apoc is just on of those games where you really do just have to stick back, take a deep breath and laugh as crazy stuff unfolds, and if you cant see that then tbh and I do realize that this may sound harsh but maybe you are playing apoc wrong?

 Talore wrote:
D-weapons D-weapons bawwwwwwwwwww D-weapons!

For the people whining about d-weapons and unfairly characterizing anyone who wants this model as someone who simply wants more d-weapons, they're the only ones here who seem like they actually care about winning, what with wanting to limit the firepower of their opponents and complaining about not being able to hit them with TLOS as easily. Not to mention that some of those people have written off the game anyways so they're being snobs just for the sake of being snobs.

If you spent the time and money to assemble and paint one of these Leviathans and you want to use it in a game against me, go right ahead man. I'm not going to deny you and all the hard work you because of some insecurity about treating a game of 40k (Apocalypse, no less!) as some competitive cowadoodee testosterone-fest where losing is unacceptable. You want to use a huge cool-looking walker in a game, and that's alright be me. I'll probably ask you which forge world recovered the pattern for your Leviathan Titan, too!

I couldn't agree anymore with this statement. Very well said.


And damn that IS sexy! Quite gorgeous imo.

Warhounds are one of my favourite models they are just a real 40k classic looking beast. I love 'em. The leviathan is a mean looking robot but its just that, it's not as wide and not as cool so I would say in principle no. But having never played against a Titan either I would let it go just to have a crack at some Titan killing!!

I own both a Warhound and a Reaver and I want to buy the Leviathan and Mortus because they are cool models and I would make bases that help represent the size of a Warhound to proxie them as Warhounds with appropriate weapons. and for those complaining about getting them just for the "D" weapon status My "official" FW titans don't have "D" class ranged weapons only the Titan power fist is a "D" weapon.
But the real reason I want them is for when a real rule set for the game comes out and I can play Nosegoblins game.

I have the 5th edition apoc book and saw what happygolucky stated as well about the blank datasheets to inspire creativity. Is this no longer allowed in the 6th edition book or what? I haven't picked it up yet.

 RavenGuard55 wrote:
I have the 5th edition apoc book and saw what happygolucky stated as well about the blank datasheets to inspire creativity. Is this no longer allowed in the 6th edition book or what? I haven't picked it up yet.

I don't have the current rulebook so I would not know, but from what I've heard is that they got rid of a lot of datasheets that don't have models because of the CH lawsuit..

Sad times for sad apoc gamers

But I would still allow custom stuff, as they are really fun anyway

thanks to this thread i have now ordered me a 15mm leviathan ... and will be saving up for the larger brother as well .. for the explicit purpose of being used as a titan ... so it can be destroyed .. and looted by my orks!

Does anyone know how the Leviathan would compare in scale to Ork Deff Dread's and Stompas? I bet you could make some awesome conversions.

If I may make a suggestion...carve a hole in the head of the Leviathan, and stick an Ork pilot inside with lots of loose wires.. It'll look like it took a direct hit to the face, and the Ork's turned its head into an open-air cockpit.