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So I am a Tau player and have an upcoming game this weekend against a Chaos Daemons player. I was wondering if there were any tactics I should use and/or how I should play the game tactically. Are there also specific models I should target? I don't have his army list so I understand if it is hard for you to say anything very specific without it, but are there any general tactics for Tau to use against Daemons? Any help would be appreciated.

First of all what is your play style? What list are you going to field?
Do you know what your opponent usually plays?

I am going to be running an O'Vesastar. My play style is to tank up the board with the O'Vesastar (O'Vesa, Farsight, Buffmander [Tau Ally], Riptide, and a second Riptide following just behind O'Vesas' unit) , and then use my other Crisis suits to JSJ hopefully getting some wounds (Crisis suits starting on the board all have twin linked MPs) Then from reserves I have a unit of 3 more Crisis Suits with TL FB and a plasma rifle. They will DS. The point of that unit is to pretty much do as much damage as possible before getting killed. I also have a squad of 10 Kroot who will come from a table edge and hopefully advance and then take an objective. Here is my list:


HQ
Commander Farsight (165pt.)
Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Shield generator; Plasma rifle; Dawn blade;
Farsight's commander team (305pt.)
§ 1x O'Vesa (305pt.); Early warning override; Earth Caste Pilot Array; Ion accelerator; Riptide battlesuit; Riptide shield generator; Shielded missile drone (x2); Stimulant injector; Twin-linked fusion blaster;

Elites
XV104 Riptide (270pt.)
Riptide battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Riptide shield generator; Ion accelerator; Twin-linked smart missile system; Early warning override; Target lock; Shielded missile drone (x2); The Talisman of Arthas Moloch;
XV104 Riptide (205pt.)
Riptide battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Riptide shield generator; Heavy burst cannon; Twin-linked smart missile system; Target lock; Velocity tracker;

Troops
3x XV8 Crisis team (201pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 3x Shas'ui (66pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Twin-linked missile pod; Gun drone (x2);
XV8 Crisis team (55pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Shas'ui (54pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Twin-linked missile pod; Gun drone;
XV8 Crisis team (55pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Shas'ui (54pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Twin-linked missile pod; Gun drone;
XV8 Crisis team (55pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 1x Shas'ui (54pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Twin-linked missile pod; Gun drone;
3x XV8 Crisis team (174pt.)
Bonding knife ritual;
§ 3x Shas'ui (57pt.); Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Plasma rifle; Twin-linked fusion blaster;

Secondary Detachment
Tau (265pt.)

HQ
Commander (185pt.)
Crisis battlesuit; Multi-tracker; Blacksun filter; Advanced targeting system; Vectored retro-thrusters; Neuroweb System Jammer; Onager gauntlet; Repulsor impact field; Command and control node; Puretide Engram Neurochip; Multi-spectrum Sensor Suit; XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit;

Troops
12x Kroot Carnivore squad (80pt.)
§ 10x Kroot (7pt.); Kroot armour; Kroot rifle; Sniper rounds;
§ 2x Kroot hound (5pt.);


I understand that it is unnecessary to put all of the war gear etc. but I just copy and pasted it. I run the two Kroot Hounds because I have them and I wanted to add some flavor to the army. I know that they are pretty much pointless though. This is my first time against this opponent, but I have looked at many of his battle reports and studied the way he runs the army. Check out jy2's battle reports. He makes them of a lot of the games he plays so after this weekend you should see one of this game too. I hope that this answers you questions.

Sorry, duplicate post.

 jy2 wrote:
The list I plan to bring is my 1750 Soul of Loc-n-Load Daemons + CSM allies:


Fateweaver
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 1x Exalted Gift (Grimoire), 1x Greater Gift - 305

10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors

Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent - 170
Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent - 170

Allies:

Be'lakor

10x Cultists
10x Cultists

Heldrake

1745


Wanna know how to beat this list? Kill all my troops. LOL!

this beng Be'lakor's debut how do you think he will fare? The rules for him look prett solid.

The list I plan to bring is my 1750 Soul of Loc-n-Load Daemons + CSM allies:


Fateweaver
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 1x Exalted Gift (Grimoire), 1x Greater Gift - 305

10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors

Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent - 170
Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Torrent - 170

Allies:

Be'lakor

10x Cultists
10x Cultists

Heldrake

1745


Wanna know how to beat this list? Kill all my troops. LOL!

But seriously, target priority is very important. You have 2 paths to success:

1. Kill off the troops or....

2. Kill off Fateweaver and the Grimoire.


Troops will almost always start off in reserves and, depending on who has 1st turn, so may some of the FMC's.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:
this beng Be'lakor's debut how do you think he will fare? The rules for him look prett solid.

Well, against Tau who can ignore cover, he's not going to last very long unless I put the Grimoire on him. But then that leaves the other FMC's vulnerable so I'm going to have to play it very judiciously. He is a great force multiplier, but there is a reason why Tau excel against FMC daemons.

BTW, warning to my opponent....watch out for Hallucination. It can be really nasty.

Saturation of fire is how you beat Demons. You might want to consider Fire Warrors just for the extra Dakka instead of Kroot.

 BlkTom wrote:
Saturation of fire is how you beat Demons. You might want to consider Fire Warrors just for the extra Dakka instead of Kroot.

Err, actually, no. Talisman of Arthas Moloch, allied Tigurius/other ML3 Psyker, completely negating its shooting, while Hit and Run and lots of prescienced precision attacks is how you beat the ScreamerStar if you actually want to kill it, otherwise ignore it and kill troops.

My deathstar puts out 27 precision strikes in CC, and roughly 18 precision shots in shooting.

Grimoire holder is T3 W2 with a 5++ save. Put enough wounds on him and LOS will fail.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 BlkTom wrote:
Saturation of fire is how you beat Demons. You might want to consider Fire Warrors just for the extra Dakka instead of Kroot.

Err, actually, no. Talisman of Arthas Moloch, allied Tigurius/other ML3 Psyker, completely negating its shooting, while Hit and Run and lots of prescienced precision attacks is how you beat the ScreamerStar if you actually want to kill it, otherwise ignore it and kill troops.

My deathstar puts out 27 precision strikes in CC, and roughly 18 precision shots in shooting.

Grimoire holder is T3 W2 with a 5++ save. Put enough wounds on him and LOS will fail.

Thank goodness I'm not running the screamer-star.

Lol so you found the thread. Thanks for posting you army list, and thanks for the tips.

Ah yes Hallucination can be nasty. I had the O'Vesastar immobilized in my game against Imotech's Seer Council.

Oh yeah Fateweaver, I was informed on how annoying that could be, believe me if I go first of seize the initiative, that thing is going down!

jy2, will you be doing a battle report on our match?

Yeah, sure.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Here's a link to our upcoming battle:


1750 Jy2's Soul of LoC-N-Load Daemons w/Be'Lakor vs Commander_Farsight's O'Vesa-star Tau

Thanks for the link

Ok, i'll do what I can to help prep you.

Firstly, when you write your litst, please don't include all of the standard issue pieces of Wargear, it makes reading your list tedious.

Secondly, your Riptide Setup is a mistake, the HBC VT Riptide should have the Drones, especially for this battle. For 1750, you are severely lacking in AA, and in the case Anti FMC. Your only hope is going to be that VT Riptide to do serious and consistant damage every turn, and for that he needs your BuffCommander's help. Him carrying the Talisman would also be clutch as well.


Ok, jy2 is a damned good player, and for a new player you've bitten off alot with this challenge match. His list is good, and really makes use of some key points of synergy. He has three FMCs, Fateweaver, a LOC, and Be'lakor. I haven't gotten a chance to look at him yet, but I"ve got a jist of what he is going to do with him. These three FMCs are key to to how he is going to use his list. Fateweaver will make his Grimiore pretty much failproof, it will work just about every turn, 8/9 of them. Fateweaver is also going to let him Reroll his Warp Storm Table, so dont expect to get any favors from the Chaos Gods in this match. His Lord of Change is packing the Grimiore, which is going to boos the Invuln Save of one particular Daemon by 2, this could be Fateweaver, or this could be Belakor. If its Fateweaver, he will have a 2++ Rerollable save and should not be targetted. Be'lakor has all of the Telepaphy Spells, which includes three you need to worry about, Invisibility, almost certainly going on his Lord of Change, possibly on Be'lakor, if on the LOC he will have a 3+ cover save while airborne, possible a 2+ and will reroll 1's. Lucky, your O'VesaStar will ignore Cover thanks to your Buffmander, again, if its a 2+ Save with Rerolls, don't shoot at it with anything that can't ignore Cover. Hallucination can effectively shut down your O'VesaStar, warm up your Talisman and maybe sacrifice a goat to lady luck to improve your 52% chance to Deny the Witch. One or two bad Deny rolls will lose you the game. Puppet master is also really bad, it will nuke your own units, against rely on the Talisman, don't let your extra Riptide drift out of that 12" bubble.

The biggest roll of the game for you will be getting 1st Turn, if you get it, nuke either Fateweaver or the Grimiore Holder with a twinlinked ignores cover monster hunting O'VesaStar and kill it dead. Now, if you don't get 1st Turn he is going to be deploying his FMCs out of LOS if possible, he can also reserve some of them if need be, so you may not get free reign to nuke one of them.

If he goes first, he is going to be coming at you, and it will be fast. The FMCs will advance, one or two will be virtually invulnerable. Be'lakor will need to die, especially if Fateweaver and the LOC are buffed, getting rid of Invisibility, Hallucination, and Puppet Master is critical. The Soulgrinders will move, fast, with Slaanesh they run d6+3". Jy2 will attempt to corral you in your deployment zone, be conscious of where he is herding you.

Always remember the mission, if its objective based his troops are extremely flimsy and will die if you shoot them. Do so at every opportunity, especially with anything that is not your O'VesaStar.


You are new player, but the name of the game, especially against a good player is Target Priority. Good luck, gotta run.

What he said ^. Kill troops, kill troops, kill troops and keep yours alive and on objectives at the end. Pretty straight forward but a remarkable amount of Tau players fail to do it...

just to throw it out there, here's what i'd run:

farsight+tau Justin Cook
Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Hq

farsight
165

O'vesa
305

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3
69

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

Elites:

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, talisman of arthas moloch
230

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Allied detachment (codex tau)

Hq:
commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, 1 shield drone, neuroweb system jammer
184

Troops:

10 kroot, 1 hound
65

Inquisitors

Ordo xenos inquisitor, 3 servo skulls
34

1748

I think it was mentioned, but your list is lacking some marker light and skyfire support. I'd suggest a pair of skyrays for this. The single crisis will deepstrike when needed otherwise they'll hide with the 3 man naked unit in the backfield seeking to jump out and contest objectives. The inquisitor is for the meta, particularly deamon cav and khan biker armies. He wont really help in this match, but in general i'd put him in my TAC builds because he's almost needed.

Good luck! And watch out for puppet master-that means keep everything within talisman range and rack all of your seekers early, otherwise JY2 is just going to do it for you into another skyray.

 Zagman wrote:
Ok, i'll do what I can to help prep you.

Firstly, when you write your litst, please don't include all of the standard issue pieces of Wargear, it makes reading your list tedious.

Secondly, your Riptide Setup is a mistake, the HBC VT Riptide should have the Drones, especially for this battle. For 1750, you are severely lacking in AA, and in the case Anti FMC. Your only hope is going to be that VT Riptide to do serious and consistant damage every turn, and for that he needs your BuffCommander's help. Him carrying the Talisman would also be clutch as well.


Ok, jy2 is a damned good player, and for a new player you've bitten off alot with this challenge match. His list is good, and really makes use of some key points of synergy. He has three FMCs, Fateweaver, a LOC, and Be'lakor. I haven't gotten a chance to look at him yet, but I"ve got a jist of what he is going to do with him. These three FMCs are key to to how he is going to use his list. Fateweaver will make his Grimiore pretty much failproof, it will work just about every turn, 8/9 of them. Fateweaver is also going to let him Reroll his Warp Storm Table, so dont expect to get any favors from the Chaos Gods in this match. His Lord of Change is packing the Grimiore, which is going to boos the Invuln Save of one particular Daemon by 2, this could be Fateweaver, or this could be Belakor. If its Fateweaver, he will have a 2++ Rerollable save and should not be targetted. Be'lakor has all of the Telepaphy Spells, which includes three you need to worry about, Invisibility, almost certainly going on his Lord of Change, possibly on Be'lakor, if on the LOC he will have a 3+ cover save while airborne, possible a 2+ and will reroll 1's. Lucky, your O'VesaStar will ignore Cover thanks to your Buffmander, again, if its a 2+ Save with Rerolls, don't shoot at it with anything that can't ignore Cover. Hallucination can effectively shut down your O'VesaStar, warm up your Talisman and maybe sacrifice a goat to lady luck to improve your 52% chance to Deny the Witch. One or two bad Deny rolls will lose you the game. Puppet master is also really bad, it will nuke your own units, against rely on the Talisman, don't let your extra Riptide drift out of that 12" bubble.

The biggest roll of the game for you will be getting 1st Turn, if you get it, nuke either Fateweaver or the Grimiore Holder with a twinlinked ignores cover monster hunting O'VesaStar and kill it dead. Now, if you don't get 1st Turn he is going to be deploying his FMCs out of LOS if possible, he can also reserve some of them if need be, so you may not get free reign to nuke one of them.

If he goes first, he is going to be coming at you, and it will be fast. The FMCs will advance, one or two will be virtually invulnerable. Be'lakor will need to die, especially if Fateweaver and the LOC are buffed, getting rid of Invisibility, Hallucination, and Puppet Master is critical. The Soulgrinders will move, fast, with Slaanesh they run d6+3". Jy2 will attempt to corral you in your deployment zone, be conscious of where he is herding you.

Always remember the mission, if its objective based his troops are extremely flimsy and will die if you shoot them. Do so at every opportunity, especially with anything that is not your O'VesaStar.


You are new player, but the name of the game, especially against a good player is Target Priority. Good luck, gotta run.

I really appreciate all of your help!

I also should've mentioned that if you focus on it early, his grimoire is actually fairly soft to your shooting from the o'vesa star. If you kill the grimoire first his big guys become alot less durable.

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by precision CC attacks.

Anyone else feel like Tau now have the most shenanigans in the game? Buff Commander, Fire Cadre formation now, the list goes on.

Best of luck to you both.

What are the point of different "formations"? Do they give you stat upgrades or anything?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
What are the point of different "formations"? Do they give you stat upgrades or anything?

You are very welcome, if you have any specific questions feel free to ask. You picked a very tough opponent to challenge and will need all of the help you can get. Also, listen to thanatos, he is a VERY skilled O'VesaStar player, basically one of the first made public.


There is a new Support Formation, basically take a mandatory Riptide and two three man Broadside Squads and get free Tank Hunter and Preferred Enemy Space Marines. Almost anyone can take them and they don't take up your Force Organization Chart. There is quite a bit of internet rage against them right now, but IMO with the required support, the lack of synergy, and the mandatory points cost will greatly limit how often they are seen.

Frees up all the respective Force Organization Charts to take more riptides and suits. I imagine someone will make a list that abuses it soon. With a buff commander thrown in, and maybe some Eldar to shut down psychic powers, you could probably make a pretty sick list with minimum troops and lots and lots of hard hitters.

 Wingeds wrote:
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by precision CC attacks.

Anyone else feel like Tau now have the most shenanigans in the game? Buff Commander, Fire Cadre formation now, the list goes on.

Best of luck to you both.

Precision attacks are attacks from Characters in close combat. On a roll of 6, you choose the model to allocate wounds to.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
What are the point of different "formations"? Do they give you stat upgrades or anything?

No, they don't. They are just names referring to the types of lists Tau players tend to make. He/she was being sarcastic. And seeker missiles work good against Daemons. Their high strength means that you won't have much trouble wounding even Greater Daemons, and their AP3 doesn't matter against Daemons, because they don't get 2+ saves. So Skyrays are effective against the flying monsterous creatures that you are sure to come across.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Err, actually there is formations like that. Sorry. Have fun spamming Broadsides!

thanatos,

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it. I am not going to change up my list now, but I will definitely take your suggestions into consideration for next time.

As for everyone else, thank you for your support and the explanation of formations etc.

The only other thing I am wondering about (this is mainly directed at thanatos) what should I do to make a final army list, one that I would run almost all of the time. I have already decided on a list (see thread) but are there any minor changes or additions you would make?

Again thanks for the support.

The link to jy2's battle report on our upcoming match:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/566692.page

I just remembered, if I seize initiative or go first, should I nuke Fateweaver or LOC? I think LOC, but what do you guys think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thanatos67 wrote:
just to throw it out there, here's what i'd run:

farsight+tau Justin Cook
Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3
69

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

Elites:

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, talisman of arthas moloch
230

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Why do you have flamers on the crisis suits? And to clarify, the team of "naked" suits is just for leaving behind cover and camping until almost the last turn, and then they either take or contest the closes objective that they can take? Do you have any more advice on tactics? And why the Skyrays?

Was this your list for the NOVA you won? If not what is it/where is the thread where I could find it?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:
just to throw it out there, here's what i'd run:

farsight+tau Justin Cook
Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3
69

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

Elites:

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, talisman of arthas moloch
230

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Why do you have flamers on the crisis suits? And to clarify, the team of "naked" suits is just for leaving behind cover and camping until almost the last turn, and then they either take or contest the closes objective that they can take? Do you have any more advice on tactics? And why the Skyrays?

Was this your list for the NOVA you won? If not what is it/where is the thread where I could find it?

No, it isn't the list that he won the NOVA with, but it's very close. He didn't have Inquisitor allies at the Nova.

Basically, it is an extreme list, with offense focused heavily on all the non-troop units - the riptides and skyrays. The suits just stay in reserves, deepstrike in and then hide. Flamer is for when they get charged, it gives them automatic Overwatch hits. He can also use them to hunt down weak enemy MSU troops. But mainly, I believe he dropped his guns on his crisis suits to fit in the Inquisitor ally.

Skyrays give some much needed anti-air and also anti-wraithknight fire support as well. They are also a source of markerlights, something that is lacking in his army without pathfinders. For their price, skyrays are actually really good, kind of like my Necron annihilation barges.



BTW, here's a preview of my army in action:


Welcome to the new 6th Edition! Escalation Battle Report

JY2 has pretty much got it. I really dont like pathfinders as IMO they are an easy firstblood unit in a list that otherwise has no easy firstbloods. Skyrays are therefore the best alternative for markerlight support at a discount. And the double as a nasty alpha striker, AND can hunt troops with their tl bs4 sms to boot. Dont be too intimidated to deepstrike 1 or 2 of those solo flamer suits either. Depending on if JY2 is going 1st or 2nd you could get some nasty flame shots on his cultists.

Your first target should be that LOC, denying JY2 his grimoire is going to be super helpful. Then kill fatey and belakor. If you do feel its needed to kill the drake, remember to tankhunt with the puretide chip and then target lock to try to kill a soulgrinder in the same turn. Dont be afraid if thats the shooting decision you make to nova ovesa's ion accel or fusion. JY2's army doesnt have a ton of ap2 shooting outside of psy shriek and some tzeentch powers, so retaliation for doing that instead of the shield shouldnt be too terrible.

thanatos67 wrote:
just to throw it out there, here's what i'd run:

farsight+tau Justin Cook
Primary detachment (farsight enclaves)

Hq

farsight
165

O'vesa
305

Troops:

3 crisis suits, bonding knifex3
69

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

1 crisis suit, bonding knife, flamer
28

Elites:

riptide, heavy burst cannon, twin linked smart missile system, velocity tracker, target lock, talisman of arthas moloch
230

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

riptide, ion accelerator, twin linked sms, early warning override
190

Heavy support

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

skyray, smart missile system, blacksun filter
116

Allied detachment (codex tau)

Hq:
commander, command and control node, multispectrum sensor suite, iridium armor, puretide chip, onager gauntlet, vectored retrothrusters, 1 shield drone, neuroweb system jammer
184

Troops:

10 kroot, 1 hound
65

Inquisitors

Ordo xenos inquisitor, 3 servo skulls
34

1748

I think it was mentioned, but your list is lacking some marker light and skyfire support. I'd suggest a pair of skyrays for this. The single crisis will deepstrike when needed otherwise they'll hide with the 3 man naked unit in the backfield seeking to jump out and contest objectives. The inquisitor is for the meta, particularly deamon cav and khan biker armies. He wont really help in this match, but in general i'd put him in my TAC builds because he's almost needed.

Good luck! And watch out for puppet master-that means keep everything within talisman range and rack all of your seekers early, otherwise JY2 is just going to do it for you into another skyray.

What would your plan be if you would expand this to 1850 and 2k? I've often found the skyfire upgrade on the burst tide not super useful when I run lots of skyrays...seems kind of expensive?

Can you guys check out my thread on the Tau Escalation Super Heavy Vehicles. I have some questions and if anyone could help me answer them, that would be appreciated.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567420.page

Thanks, and sorry to stray from this threads topic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are there any models that are very good against Daemons that Tau could take. Maybe like an Inquisitor that could be added as a detachment, it could take a power that could be good? Any help would be appreciated.

So I found out that for a FMC to be able to assault it needs to land. If your opponent is hasty enough, you could bait one of your troop units and hopefully your opponents FMC would assault it. If that happens, next turn (your turn) you could shoot at the FMC with the rest of your army. This is very risky, but if you could go for game because of it, would you do it? Is there a better way to exploit this rule to your advantage? I got this crazy idea from jy2's battle report on FMC spam (or whatever he calls it) vs. a Seer Council. Check it out and you will see what I mean if you read some of the comments and watch what happens to Be'Lakor.

this is an army where terrain set up can make a real difference with when you play.