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Yeah, I know, another reason to get flamed to death here but I'm hoping at least a few will give me an honest answer without insults...

I usually forget these right after the games the questions come up because I get distracted but happened to see a thread where searchlights were mentioned somewhere else.
A tau player at the local shop of course LOVES to play night fight cause he pretty much ignores it. He argues every time I use searchlights. Maybe I'm misreading something or maybe he is just being a.... Don't know, could be either.

I had believed that a unit "spotlighted" got no benefits from nightfight at all after that. So that for example, if my chimera moves forward, spotlights a unit of firewarriors and then if I wanted to fire my manticore at it or heavy weapons team or russ or whatever, the nightfight range limitation would not go into effect and they would not get the special cover save bonuses given by the nightfight rules.

Am I incorrect on this ?

I am fairly sure once you have hit a unit with the spot light for that turn they count as not being in night. So they gain no benifits. BUT the tank with the spotlight also looses that benifit of night cover.

And that means all units can in your army can hit the tau without them gaining a cover save.

The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

So far, looks like I'm half right.

How does the wording go for the lit up unit go for ranges. I had thought that they losy all benefits of night fight and that since the limited range was a benefit...
Like it was as though that unit was no longer under "night fight". I was pretty sure of the stealth/shroud but this is the part that had me questioning myself.

 EVIL INC wrote:
So far, looks like I'm half right.

How does the wording go for the lit up unit go for ranges. I had thought that they losy all benefits of night fight and that since the limited range was a benefit...
Like it was as though that unit was no longer under "night fight". I was pretty sure of the stealth/shroud but this is the part that had me questioning myself.

Night fighting rules specify "the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36 inches away" and that illuminated units gain no "benefit". Search lights affect the benefits to the target unit, range is determined from the shooting unit. Limited range for the shooting unit (which is also illuminated) would not be a benefit would it?

Now .. I could be wrong, but I'm 90% positive that the max range remains.

Yeah, previous discussions on this have generally gone with the 'cover save bonus is negated, range limitation is not' interpretation.

The range limitation is not a bonus that the target unit gets. It is a blanket limitation on shooting wile night fight is in effect. The searchlight has no effect on it.

Not a problem guys. I appreciate the help. At least I have some ammo to take with me next time I go to the shop and this pops up..

Rorschach9 wrote:
The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

Which is a benefit of Nightfighting.

So the range limitation is not in effect because without the benefit of nightfighting you could target the unit in question.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

Which is a benefit of Nightfighting.

So the range limitation is not in effect because without the benefit of nightfighting you could target the unit in question.

So you're saying it's a benefit to the unit being shot at yes? Sure, I can see that. However, it's not a benefit to the unit doing the shooting, which is also illuminated and loses the "benefits" of night fighting (shrouded/stealth). The unit doing the shooting must still have the 36" range restriction then, because restricting range is not a benefit.

IIRC (I will double check when back at my librabry) the vehicle with the spot light cannot benefit from it during it's shooting phase, once a unit has been illuminated, all your other units can shoot at 'illuminated' unit as if it were not night fighting, your vehicle is also no longer considered to be in the night fighting.

as I sad I'll double check the wording but I'm pretty sure it was clear

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which is a benefit of Nightfighting..

How is not being able to see a benefit?

I think he is more saying that the limiting factor to the range to shoot the unit is a benefit.

edit: spelling

To directly address the OP: The Chimera with the Searchlight must be within 36" to target the Firewarriors. It does not need to hit to 'Illuminate' the Firewarriors.

Once the Firewarriors are 'Illuminated', they no longer gain any benefit from the Night Fighting rules. As not being able to be targeted beyond 36" is clearly a benefit, the Manticore in your example would be able to freely target the Firewarriors, regardless of range.

I know I'm asking for trouble with this but my friends and I brought some real would logic into this:

Picture a illuminated baseball diamond at night, you can see it clearly, but 100m to the left you cannot see anything.

So we play it without the range limit.

RAW, is the range limit a "benefit" or not? I would say no strictly by the wording, it is a penalty to the shooter, not a benefit of the target.

Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

ok, BRB p87 for search lights, refers to nightfighting on p124.

issue: there are no set 'benefits' that nightfighting gives and there is no real definition of what illuminating does other than remove the non listed benefits.

this means that we need to work out what they mean by a benefit.

gaining stealth and shrouded are obvious ones, not being able to be shot I would personally consider to be a benefit of being in the dark, and would list it among them, least of all because the description of nightfighting and thus the limiting factor of range would be removed by being 'illuminated'.

that being said, that could be considered a RAI as RAW there actually isn't a listed benefit to nightfighting as a rule.

 insaniak wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

If nightfighting was not in effect could a unit of Missile Launcher guys (48 inch range) target a unit that was 42 inches away?

If yes, how is it not a benefit of nightfighting that the same unit can not be targeted at all?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

If nightfighting was not in effect could a unit of Missile Launcher guys (48 inch range) target a unit that was 42 inches away?

If yes, how is it not a benefit of nightfighting that the same unit can not be targeted at all?

Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.

Not being able to be targeted is a benefit of the nightfighting rule.

Yes in general all benefits are losses to someone else in this game. HOWEVER, the rules state this mechanic as a restriction not as a benefit.
So as the others are saying it's not a benefit on the target it's a restriction on those targeting.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not being able to be targeted is a benefit of the nightfighting rule.

Not according to the wording of the rule.

Night Fighting, page 124, states "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness". The wording means that they can't shoot beyond 36" range because targets beyond that range are in the dark.

One would assume that being "illuminated" (as defined in the Searchlight entry) would therefore mean that they are not in the dark. Because they're illuminated. Which is the opposite of being in darkness.

Being super hardcore RAW, the text supports neither (there is no hard description of a 'benefit', even though anyone who argues that having Stealth and/or Shrouded is not a benefit should be shot) although it heavily implies that the range restriction is not in effect. RAI definitely supports no range limitation, because it makes absolutely no sense.

Again, "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness"; they are unable to be shot at because they are in the dark. So, what about when they are not in the dark? You still can't shoot them? What?

Is anyone seriously trying to argue that not it is not a bonus, not being able to be targeted from more than 36" away,
So what is it then ?

And all agree that Searchlight wargear supercedes cover save bonuses, but does not supercede range limitation of night fighting.
Why, Oh that is because the max range that my unit of fire warriors can be targeted is 36", and that is not a benifit, no sir, it is actually a huge handicap for these fire warriors. These guys that believe in the greater good actually want the guardsmen to be able to target them!

What? how do you even reach that conclusion, the reasoning behind this exceeds my imagination.

fossing wrote:
Is anyone seriously trying to argue that not it is not a bonus, not being able to be targeted from more than 36" away,
So what is it then ?

It's not a benefit of the "lit up" unit.
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness"

So this rule bequeathed by the night fighting rule, is not a benifit, for a unit that is 37" away ?
WAT?

It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Shooting rules are:
1) Nominate a unit - I pick the Manticore.
There are restrictions on this, like can't be a unit that has already shot, is running, is locked in combat, etc.
2) Choose a target - I pick the spotlighted fire-warriors.
a.At this point you determine LOS, no range restriction on that.
b.Check range. Night fighting limits my range to 36" or the weapons range, whichever is less. However, the fire-warriors are not benefiting from the night fighting rules, so this rule is not in effect and I continue on.
' c.Which models can fire... (follow the book)
3) Roll to hit
And so on.

So, a spot-lighted target can be chosen over 36" away because the check range step is in the Choose a target section which is specific to the target, not the firing unit.

But the rules don't say that the target can't be shot from further than 36", which would be a benefit to the target unit. They say that a unit can't shoot an enemy more than 36" away... Which is a restriction on the shooter, not a bonus for the target. The fire warriors can never be the subject of that role, because if they're further than 36" away, they can't be the target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.