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I play Chaos and and attempting to build tau allies, I want the heldrake and the riptide, but I'm not a power gamer, I just like the units, they are just cool, but I'm afraid people will hate me for using them. sometimes I feel that while certain units are far better, it doesn't grant you an instant win, and can easily be killed with the right weapons. what you people think about all the "unit hate" on certain models?

I say, go with what you want. There will always be someone hating for some reason or another. I would recommend building enough that you can trade them in and out if you decide you change your mid or get tired of the cries of cheese.

thepowerfulwill wrote:I'm afraid people will hate me for using them.

That depends entirely on the people you're playing against.

If your local meta doesn't hate, then there won't be hate. Simple enough.

Just do it, combinations that aren't against the rules are fair game imo.

thepowerfulwill wrote:
sometimes I feel that while certain units are far better, it doesn't grant you an instant win, and can easily be killed with the right weapons.

Unfortunately this does not apply to the Riptide. It really doesn't. Snipers? It takes about 50 sniper shots to kill a single uncharged, non-FnP Riptide at 5++. Poison? It takes over 90-110 splinter shots and over 15 dark lance shots.

You will never spend less points than a Riptide to kill one. The only way to kill a Riptide with equal or less points is through psykers, which Farsight Enclaves can easily negate and have a 24" range, or through assault, which I don't have to explain why that is simply not feasible until late game for any army besides Daemons unless you are blessed with good cityfight tables.

Just build your list to the competitive level you expect to be playing at. If you want to take particular units that are above that sort of level (like Riptides), balance it out with units that are below that level (like Vespid).

Generally speaking, if you're running one of them, you should be fine.

thepowerfulwill wrote:
I play Chaos and and attempting to build tau allies, I want the heldrake and the riptide, but I'm not a power gamer, I just like the units, they are just cool, but I'm afraid people will hate me for using them. sometimes I feel that while certain units are far better, it doesn't grant you an instant win, and can easily be killed with the right weapons. what you people think about all the "unit hate" on certain models?

Don't feel bad! I have several armies already, but I saw the Stormlord tank and had to have it! I wanted to start up a Cadian army based around just that tank. So I'm in near the same boat. I don't think folk care, I like Titans too, and am about to drop a Warhound in with that Stormlord army... I'll still lose... lol
But I enjoy the awesome models! If I read the rules as much as I painted, built models I would be good to go.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

thepowerfulwill wrote:
sometimes I feel that while certain units are far better, it doesn't grant you an instant win, and can easily be killed with the right weapons.

Unfortunately this does not apply to the Riptide. It really doesn't. Snipers? It takes about 50 sniper shots to kill a single uncharged, non-FnP Riptide at 5++. Poison? It takes over 90-110 splinter shots and over 15 dark lance shots.

You will never spend less points than a Riptide to kill one. The only way to kill a Riptide with equal or less points is through psykers, which Farsight Enclaves can easily negate and have a 24" range, or through assault, which I don't have to explain why that is simply not feasible until late game for any army besides Daemons unless you are blessed with good cityfight tables.

Big Mek, Shokk Attack Gun, Double 6s. Is it reliable? No. But it is cheaper.

But most ork armies don't use the SAG , it dies too fast and costs too much and wastes an HQ slot.
Liking helldrakes or riptides can happen , but saying that using them is not power gaming ? maybe if your opponents play only chaos , tau and demons .

Makumba wrote:
But most ork armies don't use the SAG , it dies too fast and costs too much and wastes an HQ slot.
Liking helldrakes or riptides can happen , but saying that using them is not power gaming ? maybe if your opponents play only chaos , tau and demons .

Speak for yourself I love the SAG. Sure, it's unreliable, but it is so much fun to play whatever happens....

It's your army and your money. If you want a unit, buy it, build it, paint it, love it.

People will hate you for winning and blame the units you brought.

Why isn't the riptide a vehicle anyway?

Because that would make too much sense and make it balanced.

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
It's your army and your money. If you want a unit, buy it, build it, paint it, love it.

People will hate you for winning and blame the units you brought.

Exactly this. Also, I have both a Heldrake and a Riptide. I bought the Heldrake when it came out because I liked the model (back when everyone was saying it was awful). I bought the Riptide on a whim because I wanted either it or the Wraithknight because I like them. I'm currently attempting to give the Riptide pose-able joints so I don't have to glue it in one pose.

Also, my Heldrake died to a lasPred in its first game. It's really not as powerful as people complain. It's when you bring three of them that it gets silly, but even then, that's a lot of points.

Bring what you want. Other people will.

Monstrous creatures have generally been imbalanced ever since they were given range either in the form of mobility or good shooting. Their saves were improved too. So the Riptide has all of good range, good mobility and good survivability. It's pretty nuts.

I the third edition Wraithlords always felt so imbalanced because they had T8/3+ save and 3 wounds, 3 S6 AP2 shots at BS4 for little cost. Most monstrous creatures weren't quite that good, but even those buggers could be killed with enough Lascannons which you could spam back then easily, of course they made Dreadnoughts look silly because a Dreadnought would just explode in one hit.

In 4th I faced a lot of Tyranid Monstrous Creature spams with 6-8 TMC's. I felt they were so cheesy, with Necrons you had basically no chance of ever killing their massive amounts of T6 3+/2+ save wounds. I thought they were bs.

But now, oh man, this game needs some weapons that do D3/D6 wounds. I don't think it's healthy for a game to have a lot of no-win scenarios, but that's what Monstrous Creatures do. That's from a perspective of an Ork player of course. Maybe if I played something like IG with maxed Lascannons I wouldn't mind.

But to answer your question, it's not really your fault the rulemakers make decisions based on what models they want to sell.

The 'hate' is justified to a certain point, but I feel that it is often overhyped, especially on the internet.
As long as your list only includes one riptide and heldrake, I would be fine with it.

Rautakanki: Let's not go overboard here, just because some MCs are way too good for their points cost doesn't mean we need to nerf the whole unit type, Tyranids are barely holding on to relevancy as it is.

Just try not to play a "net-list".
To field something that people point to as "auto-win".

I was threatening to field in apocalypse a company of devastators (I could do it too) and the immediate crying was spectacular. So supreme spam is also an easy to hate thing.

The rule of cool will help: great assembly and painted? Not a flavor of the day? Less arguments when a model looks good (I would fight you on a bare plastic model).

Yes... fluff... why would Chaos join Tau? Less history, CSM are just misunderstood? No psychic anything with Tau so nothing really there to chew on or bring in a daemon invasion?

They are expensive models, your money, you like the models and you will not let a little wining (or is that winning?) get in the way of playing with your new toys.

If you get a few wins by a large margin then throttle it back (not a moment before!).

Specific models are not typically the issue, it is combinations of these special models or multiples of them that start the crying.

Makumba wrote:
But most ork armies don't use the SAG , it dies too fast and costs too much and wastes an HQ slot.
Liking helldrakes or riptides can happen , but saying that using them is not power gaming ? maybe if your opponents play only chaos , tau and demons .

"Wastes" is a comparative term. Who cares if it doesn't work all the time? That one time it takes a Riptide off the board turn 1 will be worth it!


Which tells you my approach to the game.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Rautakanki: Let's not go overboard here, just because some MCs are way too good for their points cost doesn't mean we need to nerf the whole unit type, Tyranids are barely holding on to relevancy as it is.

I can't say I wish to see the MC-spam army ever again become really good, so I hope the smaller Tyranids will be made good instead and the MC:s just for support.

 Talizvar wrote:

Yes... fluff... why would Chaos join Tau? Less history, CSM are just misunderstood?

I'm currently vaguely running with the idea that they are Tau mercenaries (the Riptide being a recent top secret device is a problem, though). My CSMs are a cell of Alpha Legionnaires on loan to a rogue (ex)Inquisitor named Lyxivia (who is actually a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch). She's extraordinarily charismatic and manipulative, she could make it happen. Although I do need to determine the specifics of these Tau mercenaries and how they came to this point, not to mention how they got their hands on a Riptide.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Big Mek, Shokk Attack Gun, Double 6s. Is it reliable? No. But it is cheaper.

6 grots. Is it reliable ? No. Is it plausible ? No. Is it possible ? Yes. Is it even worth mentioning ? No.
You had rather quote JOTWW, it would have been more likely to actually happen in game.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Big Mek, Shokk Attack Gun, Double 6s. Is it reliable? No. But it is cheaper.

6 grots. Is it reliable ? No. Is it plausible ? No. Is it possible ? Yes. Is it even worth mentioning ? No.
You had rather quote JOTWW, it would have been more likely to actually happen in game.

Shokk Attack Gun is more likely.

And the point was there are cheaper options who can do it, not just the one that was originally mentioned. Vindicare Assassins for instance can deal multiple wounds.

LOL, I find it hilarious that the riptide is a "secret weapon" yet now it's played with the frequency and fame of the Leman Russ tank from Imperial Guard... that made me chuckle.

Anyway, use whatever models you like. Given that you have put some background to try and justify it shows that you aren't just doing it for the cheese factor. I personally hate the helldrake and the riptide and would most likely not play against your list simply because they hard counter my army (I play Deathwing and Ravenwing...) and it would not be a fun game for either of us.

That said, if you like the models and can justify their use together, go for it. I tend to just use whatever I like, even if it isn't optimal. Luckily, the riptide and helldrake are both great on the tabletop so if you like the models, all the better.

- VardenV2

By the way, I would change this thread to "Units people hate" not models.

Nothing is wrong with the heldrake or riptide or waveserpent model.
They are cool.

The main reason people hate units are two fold:
* it does something they have not had to face before, or gives a new weakness they have never experienced from that army (or maybe any other).
OR
* it does something that is not new, but does it so well, or in a new way, that it messes with people.

For example, the heldrake did something new - it took away armor saves from models that before enjoyed a lot of resiliency.

The players who were used to not being resilient (i.e. nids, guard, some tau, old guardians, etc.) it was not that big a deal. The players who were used to good saves...it was a really big deal.

The riptide is similar - it allowed for armies that usually got their saves, to no longer get them (when combined with synergy units in the codex to increase BS and remove cover).
Again, to the players who were used to this - no big deal.
To players who were not - very big deal.

Wave serpent - for the players who relied on cover more - very big deal...or just volume of shots (my eldar buddies say they don't even need skyfire to shot down flyers....their serpents do it fine).

It really boils down to players expectations in my opinion really.

Or another way to think about it;
EXAMPLE:
So, my marines and I played some tau the other day.

A bunch of markerlights hit a unit, riptdies uses all the ML (remove cover, and reduce scatter) and wipes out some of my guys. I can appreciate that this is not a popular feeling.
You feel helpless (cause you got no saves).

However, that took a combined effort of about 320 points of the enemy to do that (the riptide and marker teams).

If an enemy attacked my squad with about 320 other points from his list....sure, I might roll a lot of saves, and I might lose the unit...but I FELT like I did something...(I rolled the a lot of saves).

EXAMPLE:
Another situation - guardsmen (or termagants) hiding behind an aegis line holding an objective. They get shot at...I have them go to ground for a 2+ save! This is a great plan.

Wave serpent shoots them! Uh oh. Between the scatter lasers (which will hit, being BS4 tl) and the shield I take a ton of hits, nost of which ignore the aegis line - the volume of shots easily overcome my poor armor save, and my less resilient troops die.

A marine player would have not cared that much - they still got their armor saves, and their expecation of only losing a few was mostly met (although they may have said "dang, thats a lot of shots".). Where as the player with the weaker save had a different expectation for his using cover - and to him, it was very bad.

The riptide or heldrake was the opposite - the marine player (which I play, btw) was that its rare they get killed (the occasional plasma, etc.) - so when a heldrake or ripttide kills a bunch - its quite the shock.
But the nid player or tau/guard/etc. player - its just another day of losing troops - they are not as shocked.

Anyway, this is just some observational stuff - but it explains a lot of the "hate" out there...



* edit for typo

Well it's also that the Heldrake and Riptide can be anywhere from hard to impossible to kill and that's frustrating for most players.

To be honest id question why you have those models on the same table in the same force. Why not collect another small army instead. Tau and Chaos? Not really a good match up. From a fluffy perspective the Tau foind what the Kroot do horrid and all they do is eat the dead. How much more so would the Tau be mortified by Chaos activity?

So why put the two together? Why not just do a small tau army? Play them seperately.

I just see it as a stupid match up.

 Rautakanki wrote:
Well it's also that the Heldrake and Riptide can be anywhere from hard to impossible to kill and that's frustrating for most players.

I cannot disagree that when the heldrake came out, it was very hard to kill.

Today, while still a very resiliant flyer compared to most - it is much easier to bring down - either with other flyers, more skyfire enabled units or just plane shots.

Regarding riptides, there are already dozens and dozens of posts on how to deal with them on other threads - but I can say this - if you are trying to kill them - thats not the right way...
(anyway, that conversation is best left to other threads).

Likewise, if you are used to killing tanks with quality of shots (AP 1 weapons, melta's, railguns, etc.) the wave serpent can be incredibly frustrating as well, with its shield.
Armies who go the quantity of shot route, have a less harder time.

I think people so long as its game legal should be able to field as beardy armies as they like. Furthermore, how are your oponents supposed to get better without losing ?????