Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2013/12/06 15:03:53
Subject: Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
djones520 wrote: NYPD seriously needs to put some money into fire arm training. This is just ridiculous.
Meanwhile the good Samaritan who hasn't fired his gun to hurt anyone for 4 years puts five rounds in a thug robbing a store.
Conclusion: You're safer with private gun fanatics defending you than the police. The fanatics bother to practice.
That seems like a very Hasty Generalization. The police are in situations that could require a gun then pirvate citizen was. So there are more opprotunities for mistakes.
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2013/12/07 00:14:19
Subject: Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
That seems like a very Hasty Generalization. The police are in situations that could require a gun then pirvate citizen was. So there are more opprotunities for mistakes.
And yet, if we look at "good" media sources for articles about the general citizen defending themselves or others from crime without hurting additional uninvolved parties, there are a ton more of those than "cop uses gun, doesnt hurt anyone other than bad guy"
And of course, it seems more and more of those "cops cant hit the broad side of a barn from 10 feet away" stories are coming from places where they are increasingly becoming police states (looking at you NY, CA)
So while it may be somewhat hasty, and a generalization, it doesn't negate that in general it is pretty true.
2013/12/07 02:18:29
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
That seems like a very Hasty Generalization. The police are in situations that could require a gun then pirvate citizen was. So there are more opprotunities for mistakes.
And yet, if we look at "good" media sources for articles about the general citizen defending themselves or others from crime without hurting additional uninvolved parties, there are a ton more of those than "cop uses gun, doesnt hurt anyone other than bad guy"
And of course, it seems more and more of those "cops cant hit the broad side of a barn from 10 feet away" stories are coming from places where they are increasingly becoming police states (looking at you NY, CA)
So while it may be somewhat hasty, and a generalization, it doesn't negate that in general it is pretty true.
It comes down to the private citizens who have a gun being more likely to spend a lot of time at the range. Cops are restricted by how much money the city/county/state will give them to do that.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/12/07 02:23:56
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
It comes down to the private citizens who have a gun being more likely to spend a lot of time at the range. Cops are restricted by how much money the city/county/state will give them to do that.
Not only that but time constraints factor in to the equation a bit as well. Remember that police officers have a bit of a packed schedule.
A police officer with a family might only put in enough range time to ensure that they remain qualified by departmental standards, to use an example.
2013/12/07 02:26:12
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
It comes down to the private citizens who have a gun being more likely to spend a lot of time at the range. Cops are restricted by how much money the city/county/state will give them to do that.
Not only that but time constraints factor in to the equation a bit as well. Remember that police officers have a bit of a packed schedule.
A police officer with a family might only put in enough range time to ensure that they remain qualified by departmental standards, to use an example.
Exactly. A lot of the blame on these situations should fall on to the ones who are controlling the purse strings.
When we are putting these people in the position where they are to use fire arms, we should be ensuring they are the best they can be at doing it. We owe it to the by standers.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2013/12/07 08:16:20
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
That seems like a very Hasty Generalization. The police are in situations that could require a gun then pirvate citizen was. So there are more opprotunities for mistakes.
And yet, if we look at "good" media sources for articles about the general citizen defending themselves or others from crime without hurting additional uninvolved parties, there are a ton more of those than "cop uses gun, doesnt hurt anyone other than bad guy"
And of course, it seems more and more of those "cops cant hit the broad side of a barn from 10 feet away" stories are coming from places where they are increasingly becoming police states (looking at you NY, CA)
So while it may be somewhat hasty, and a generalization, it doesn't negate that in general it is pretty true.
Its also worth minding that normal citizen takes out armed gunman is a very popular story it sells papers, it gets views. Cop does his job properly, is not a good story, it does not sell papers, it does not get viewers.
2013/12/07 08:43:08
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Exactly. A lot of the blame on these situations should fall on to the ones who are controlling the purse strings.
When we are putting these people in the position where they are to use fire arms, we should be ensuring they are the best they can be at doing it. We owe it to the by standers.
Unfortunately, that would usually require more taxes, which is generally a non-starter.
2013/12/07 10:51:13
Subject: Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Sounds like they just panicked if they were within taser range but didn't use it first.
Probably saw him reach into a pocket after failing to do as they asked, panic fired a bunch of rounds off with shaky hands and then got their head together enough to use the taser after realising they'd shot up the crowd standing behind.
If private citizens own guns, then of course you're going to get jumpy police, it just comes with the turf.
Times square is the kind of place a crazy person might potentially want to shoot up too so that was probably playing on their minds a bit in the milliseconds they had to respond.
Ideally, the police with the best marksman skills should be deployed to the most crowded locations in the city. If they're better trained they're less likely to use it, because they're confident they can draw/fire/kill accurately and rapidly once they see the gun as opposed to once they see a hand go into a pocket.
Why put Officer Butterfingers in charge of the most crowded public place in the whole city?
I remember when I visted NY a few years back I noticed this gigantic fat cop in a 3-wheeler buggy/cart eating donuts with a roll of flab hanging out of each side of the cart. Pretty sure it was quite close to Times Square too.
He was carrying. It struck me as grossly incompetent even allowing someone that size to do the job which should require excellent physical fitness at all times, for the sake of keeping the public safe. Can't imagine his reaction time or firearms skills with those sausage fingers was much good.
And that story about them hitting *nine* civilians while tracking an armed murderer is just nuts. They could have ended up killing more people than the murder did due to ham-fisted incompetence. Did they just keep on chasing and firing, obvious to the breadcrumb trail of bloody civilians they were leaving in their wake?
I can't believe something like that can even happen without the public going nuts about it. If UK police stuffed up like that, there would be an immediate ban on use of any weaponry by them.
Hell, the last time the police shot someone dead in the UK (someone who was suspected to be carrying and did have a boot full of guns), it was the trigger for country-wide riots.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2013/12/07 11:18:33
2013/12/08 04:51:12
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
That seems like a very Hasty Generalization. The police are in situations that could require a gun then pirvate citizen was. So there are more opprotunities for mistakes.
For the most part, it was. Key words are "most part".
Still funny to see happen that way in the last week.
I'm not strictly pro gun control (I think it is an American issue, for Americans). But I think this does highlight an often neglected aspect.
In a land where you can assume anyone might be carrying a concealed weapon, it is not just criminals who need be afraid, but also police. They are going to be much more inclined to shoot first and ask questions later, when they see a guy reach down his pants.
This would almost certainly not happen in the UK. As police don't typically carry guns. Sometimes this leads to comedy situations such as the video below. I'm sure 30 police to bring down one guy with a machete, must look ridiculous to Americans. In the US he would no doubt have been shot 11 times before he even hit the floor. But I think it does show how unnecessary a lot of police shooting are. Even though the guy is very threatening, and the police have plenty of reason to fear for their safety, they still manage to apprehend him without being hurt, or having to shoot him. I believe the guy turned out to be mentally ill...
2013/12/08 06:56:30
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Nah, he'd have been Taser'd if at all possible in most places, but officers are allowed to use deadly force if there is a threat of immediate harm to themselves or bystanders.
And 30 officers to take down a guy wielding a glorified bush trimmer is really just sad. Its an embarrassment really.
A couple officers with Tasers could easily subdue someone like that. Especially with a clear shot like they all would have had.
There's even those new mini-tasers loaded in a shotgun shell. You can hit someone much more reliably from a greater distance.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 07:00:04
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Can't be all the fun. No Polar Bears or foxy Russian women
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ouze wrote: It's not without some precedent. It's well established that once you are culpable for unintended consequences of criminal situations you engage in: for example, if you rob a bank, and the teller drops dead, you can be charged with murder, even though you didn't kill the teller directly.
That's "Felony Murder". But as the name suggests, it only applies if you're committing a felony, and if someone dies as a result. Neither of which is true here.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
2013/12/08 07:50:52
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Grey Templar wrote: Nah, he'd have been Taser'd if at all possible in most places, but officers are allowed to use deadly force if there is a threat of immediate harm to themselves or bystanders.
And 30 officers to take down a guy wielding a glorified bush trimmer is really just sad. Its an embarrassment really.
A couple officers with Tasers could easily subdue someone like that. Especially with a clear shot like they all would have had.
There's even those new mini-tasers loaded in a shotgun shell. You can hit someone much more reliably from a greater distance.
I was thinking specifically of the shooting of Ernesto Duenez, where the cop massively overreacted to 'thinking he saw a blade' and basically emptied his clip into a guy who was already writhing on the floor. I would hope that isn't normal, but if there is an increase in the prevalence of weapons, then it might lead to police being generally more jumpy.
I recall seeing an episode of 'to catch a predator'. (I forget which state it was in), but the police were very aggressive in the way they conducted arrests (basically hard tackling people who had already surrendered). The presenter attributed it to the carry laws in that state. (I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics).
The 30 Police video is indeed quite embarrassing. They do carry CS Spray, but I think this guy was unresponsive. I do feel that 5 guys with batons should have been able to overpower him anyway, if they knew what they were doing and coordinated better. They aren't really in control of the situation at the start of the video.
That said I wouldn't underestimate the machete. It's not just a bush trimmer! I think it's an almost ideal melee weapon for close quarter fighting against unarmoured assailants. The perfect balance between choppy and cutty. Perhaps that's why the cutlass (a very similar weapon) was favored by pirates when boarding ships.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/08 07:54:48
2013/12/08 08:54:08
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Wales: Where the Men are Men and the sheep are Scared.
Grey Templar wrote: Nah, he'd have been Taser'd if at all possible in most places, but officers are allowed to use deadly force if there is a threat of immediate harm to themselves or bystanders.
And 30 officers to take down a guy wielding a glorified bush trimmer is really just sad. Its an embarrassment really.
A couple officers with Tasers could easily subdue someone like that. Especially with a clear shot like they all would have had.
There's even those new mini-tasers loaded in a shotgun shell. You can hit someone much more reliably from a greater distance.
That "hedge trimmer" could have easily killed anyone who got close enough. Knives are no joke. Even people who train to defend against knives every day still have a risk of getting high risk of getting cut when defending against one.
2013/12/08 10:49:30
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Last night in Brooklyn, two New York City transit cops stationed at a subway station at Lewis and Broadway in Bed-Stuy heard pounding above them. They walked up to the street to find a man with a cane banging on their patrol car. The two cops approached the man, who swung at them, striking one in the face. The other — naturally, because how else would two people subdue a man who requires the use of a cane — shot the man to the ground. He was taken to the hospital, as were the cops. Take a guess which of three will make it out of the hospital last.
Also last night, Washington D.C. police chief Cathy Lanier addressed the cases of two policemen on her force accused of doing two very bad things. One, a 24-year veteran of the force named Linwood Barnhill, allegedly moonlights as a pimp. On Wednesday, police searched his home looking for a missing 16-year-old. They found her there along with an 18-year-old female, and the younger girl told the officers executing the search that Barnhill had arranged for her to meet with an older male, where the two would have sex in exchange for $80. The girl also told police that Barnhill took nude photos of her with his cell phone and that she had met a half-dozen other girls at his apartment.
This comes on the heels of another D.C. cop being hit with child pornography charges on Tuesday. That one, a man named Marc J. Washington, is accused of stripping down a 15-year-old girl and photographing her while in the process of investigating a claim that she ran away from home. On his phone, his colleagues in the police department found more photos of naked women, some of which appeared to be minors and others that were victims of domestic violence.
"We've come so far," Lanier said in her press conference on Friday. "We have people now who feel comfortable telling us about these complaints. It only takes one cop to shake everybody in our community."
Now she has two.
wow, been a bad week for the police.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/12/08 17:29:16
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders
Grey Templar wrote: Nah, he'd have been Taser'd if at all possible in most places, but officers are allowed to use deadly force if there is a threat of immediate harm to themselves or bystanders.
And 30 officers to take down a guy wielding a glorified bush trimmer is really just sad. Its an embarrassment really.
A couple officers with Tasers could easily subdue someone like that. Especially with a clear shot like they all would have had.
There's even those new mini-tasers loaded in a shotgun shell. You can hit someone much more reliably from a greater distance.
That "hedge trimmer" could have easily killed anyone who got close enough. Knives are no joke. Even people who train to defend against knives every day still have a risk of getting high risk of getting cut when defending against one.
Sure its dangerous.
But you know what they say about bringing knives to the metaphorical gun/taser fight.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ouze wrote: Also kinda curious why they didn't go for the Taser initially. I mean, it obviously worked well enough once employed.
If they thought he was pulling a gun, I believe the standard procedure is to meet lethal force with lethal force. Once the police had let off a bunch of shots and it had become clear the guy wasn't carrying a gun, then they switched to a taser.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingCracker wrote: Not to mention being inside taser range. Those things are good for only 30 to 40 feet? Yikes.... you have to want to miss.
Most shots fired as an instant reaction from a pistol inside 20 feet miss. We also have no idea if the taser was fired at the same range as the gun - its entirely possible that once it became clear the guy didn't have a gun they might have closed the range to fire the taser.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ensis Ferrae wrote: And yet, if we look at "good" media sources for articles about the general citizen defending themselves or others from crime without hurting additional uninvolved parties, there are a ton more of those than "cop uses gun, doesnt hurt anyone other than bad guy"
Only if we assume that each story of 'cop identifies lethal risk, fires and wounds/kills the suspect' gets as much coverage as each instance where it goes wrong.
So while it may be somewhat hasty, and a generalization, it doesn't negate that in general it is pretty true.
It means we have no idea if its true, because aggregating news stories tells us only about what is exciting and sensational, and what the media likes to report on, and nothing about what is happening in the real world. If we went purely on what the news covered, then we'd conclude the leading cause of death is shark attacks, and the only two people to have died non-violent deaths in the last five years are Michael Jackson and Nelson Mandela.
An actual study in to this would be fascinating, as well as a review of exactly what factors most likely lead to accurate or inaccurate firing. I wonder if civilian shooters are really more accurate, and if so, I wonder why. Training would play part (in which case mandating a lot more hours on the range for cops would make a lot of sense). But perhaps there's also familiarity with your gun, individuals pick the gun they're most comfortable and most accurate with, so maybe cops should have some scope for picking their own pistol as well? Of course, a lot of it might be situational, by the nature of their job cops are often dealing with situations with a lot of unknowns, it can move from 'just another donkey-cave acting strangely' to a gunfight in a fraction of a second, whereas perhaps most instances of civilians acting against a suspect they're interjecting themselves in to the situation, so already know what's going on.
And, of course, there's the chance that it isn't true at all, and that cops are no less effective in shootings than anyone else. But the only way to know any of that would be to see a study on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/09 03:58:51
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/12/09 18:58:23
Subject: Re:Unarmed man charged for assault, after NYPD shoot 2 bystanders