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*sigh*

Is Old One Eye able to join Carnifex Squads at all?

I'd love to have him and 3 Carnifexes stomping around the field with one of them having Adrenal Glands to give the Unit Fleet.

AdagiO wrote:

 Nem wrote:

AdagiO wrote:
The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

I thought it was friendly turn - and can Hor get Regen also?

Hor?
This link has the scanned page of Biomorph upgrades.
http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Its now end of each turn.

Thanks, yeah I mean Har, keep on calling it Horuspex.

AdagiO wrote:

 Nem wrote:

AdagiO wrote:
The spelling of Regeneration is now: Regains a wound on a 4+ each turns end. Thats pretty good you can roll in the end of your turn and in the end of your opponents turn.

I thought it was friendly turn - and can Hor get Regen also?

Hor?
This link has the scanned page of Biomorph upgrades.
http://imgur.com/a/8w57g

Its now end of each turn.

Unfortunately, the full version of the rule on page 67 says 'end of each friendly turn'. Welp :(

 Bloodhorror wrote:
*sigh*

Is Old One Eye able to join Carnifex Squads at all?

I'd love to have him and 3 Carnifexes stomping around the field with one of them having Adrenal Glands to give the Unit Fleet.

Nope, afraid not. OOE is not an IC, just a MC(Ch).

Xttz- I've seen you post about zoeys a few times now. Won't they just get shot?

Why aren't you considering hive guard? BS3 sucks of course, but they were auto-include before.

Can the Carnifex get lash whips?

Aside of how stupid it would look, I5 Carnifexes does sound nice.

 RiTides wrote:
Xttz- I've seen you post about zoeys a few times now. Won't they just get shot?

Why aren't you considering hive guard? BS3 sucks of course, but they were auto-include before.

Because Zoeys give cheap and fairly durable synapse plus a roll for an extra power. Everything bar Psychic Scream is a decent roll for them, and Dominion is even acceptable as an emergency backup plan (you can measure the 18" synapse from any model in the brood). The AP3 Warp Blast should be in enemy range after you move on turn 1, and if you can get Onslaught on them Warp Lance can have a decent effective range too. If you're not buying Zoeys you need to be taking fairly expensive Tyrants/Trygon Primes, overcosted Warrior Primes, undereffective Warriors or Tervigons (who are now an anti-Termagant grenade).

There's nothing to stop you taking Hive Guard as well to be honest, I can see both working quite well together as a tough core to a walking horde.

Shrikes make good synapse on the move.

Posted this on warseer, thought I would share here as well.

Well I played my first game today with the new nids. Ended In a draw 7-7 vs space wolves. Couple of thoughts.

1. Exocrine are pretty hoss. These things will be an auto include for me in the future methinks.

2. The haruspex (just like I thought) is decent, but lacks survivability because of very little in terms of a delivery system. Worked really well with upgrades, but really struggled against even basic tac marines.

3. Flyrants, while cheaper, are less durable. Getting the feel no pain power on both saved my skin more than a few times, but that was luck. I sorely sorely missed biomancy powers (especially enfeeble).

4. 90 horms did not work nearly as well as I thought it would. Flamers, drop pods, thunder wolves, just massacred these guys.

5. Losing scything talons re-rolls hurts. A lot.

Here was my 1850 list

2x Flyrant, twin devourers

3 zoanthropes

2 haruspex adrenal glands

30 horms
30 horms
30 horms

Exocrine
Exocrine
3 carnifex, all scything

How did the fex do?

The exocrine is what impressed me the most. Killed a rune priest, basically nuked a squad that got out of a drop pod. Was very very solid.

The fexes managed to kill one thunder wolf (the zoanthropes softened them up) and managed to kill a squad of long fangs (granted, they only managed to do that with an insanely lucky 12' charge). Losing re-rolls really hurt these guys. I would stick with devourers.

 AesSedai wrote:
What we really need to know is what GW will do to rectify the nids inability to take allies. This is, imo, the single greatest problem facing nids.

Sorry if this has already been addressed (this thread is a torrent!), but who on Earth would actually ally with Tyranids? Genestealer cults I suppose, if you consider them not-Tyranids already. But anyone else? It would be like allying with a virus. It doesn't care about your politics, it just wants to subvert your biology. It's already weird enough for me that they have "Unique Artifacts".

Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

 xttz wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Xttz- I've seen you post about zoeys a few times now. Won't they just get shot?

Why aren't you considering hive guard? BS3 sucks of course, but they were auto-include before.

Because Zoeys give cheap and fairly durable synapse plus a roll for an extra power. Everything bar Psychic Scream is a decent roll for them, and Dominion is even acceptable as an emergency backup plan (you can measure the 18" synapse from any model in the brood). The AP3 Warp Blast should be in enemy range after you move on turn 1, and if you can get Onslaught on them Warp Lance can have a decent effective range too. If you're not buying Zoeys you need to be taking fairly expensive Tyrants/Trygon Primes, overcosted Warrior Primes, undereffective Warriors or Tervigons (who are now an anti-Termagant grenade).

There's nothing to stop you taking Hive Guard as well to be honest, I can see both working quite well together as a tough core to a walking horde.

But a warrior prime can join a unit, keeping your synapse safe. Thanks for the input

Nice thoughts Merces!

 xttz wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
Xttz- I've seen you post about zoeys a few times now. Won't they just get shot?

Why aren't you considering hive guard? BS3 sucks of course, but they were auto-include before.

Because Zoeys give cheap and fairly durable synapse plus a roll for an extra power. Everything bar Psychic Scream is a decent roll for them, and Dominion is even acceptable as an emergency backup plan (you can measure the 18" synapse from any model in the brood). The AP3 Warp Blast should be in enemy range after you move on turn 1, and if you can get Onslaught on them Warp Lance can have a decent effective range too. If you're not buying Zoeys you need to be taking fairly expensive Tyrants/Trygon Primes, overcosted Warrior Primes, undereffective Warriors or Tervigons (who are now an anti-Termagant grenade).

There's nothing to stop you taking Hive Guard as well to be honest, I can see both working quite well together as a tough core to a walking horde.

Getting a dangerous T4 model into 18"/24" range unscathed always tends to be a problem. I tried walking zoeys in the current codex and never felt I got a return on them.

Hive guard with BS3 and no twin-linking does not fill me with confidence. Brood of 3, 6 shots - 3 hit, 1 or 2 maybe do something at best if shooting transports. If only target is say marines, you're maybe putting two armour saves onto a tac squad a turn. Devourer gants can do that for me.

Elites suddenly seems a lot different. No ymgarls, no Doom, zoeys have lost spore, hive guard are BS3. Lictors and venomthropes a little better ...

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

 SHUPPET wrote:

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

I don't believe that works. The restrictions are placed by GtG at the time you do GtG, they are not dependant on whether you can or cannot GtG currently. – Like, not being able to, does not lift the restriction from having been.

 SHUPPET wrote:

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

This might work.

The rule summary of synapse, in the back of the book says "Units automatically rally if they are within synapse range WHEN THEY BEGIN THEIR MOVE"

Nice. Given how deliberate many of the wordings in the book are (pyrovore acid explosion excluded) I would say this is both RAW and RAI.

I do not have a full scan of the main synapse rule however (page 38).

Edit: side note,
So the gants up front would get a 4+ save ....gone to ground, and shrouded.
The stealers would get a 3+ save (cover from gants, an shrouded)
Venomthrope 3+ (stealer cover, and shrouded).

If only the Venomthrope were an ic....or had a larger range. the 6" is a bit tricky...you would have to do some clever manuvering to get it, but we had to do that in last edition to keep gants within gland range of a tervigon.

 Nem wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

I don't believe that works. The restrictions are placed by GtG at the time you do GtG, they are not dependant on whether you can or cannot GtG currently. – Like, not being able to, does not lift the restriction from having been.

From BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit has the
Fearless
special rule applied to them while they
have
Gone to Ground
, are the effects of Go to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes

So yes it does work. and has been a very effective tactic with infiltrators.

EDIT:

barnowl wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

I don't believe that works. The restrictions are placed by GtG at the time you do GtG, they are not dependant on whether you can or cannot GtG currently. – Like, not being able to, does not lift the restriction from having been.

From BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit has the
Fearless
special rule applied to them while they
have
Gone to Ground
, are the effects of Go to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes

So yes it does work. and has been a very effective tactic with infiltrators.

Well there you go.

Seems like an effective way to get Stealers to combat.

You can juggle it with a second Tervigon on the other side of the stealers as well by moving the first one out of 18" range and give them a +2 cover save all the way up the board.

I'm just using Tervi's as an example you could do it with your Flyrants, or take something much cheaper like a solo Zoanthrope.

I think I'll be getting some stealers.

Actually liking the idea of tyrannofexxen here. Pretty tough units with acid spray as torrent and a large blast? Sure why not. Might compete a bit with dakka fexes and exocrine though...

With the synapse fearless trick, remember, you are putting a ton of points into an easily killed gimmick. If it fails, you have neutered your army for a gimmick. A predictable gimmick at that. All for getting 20 mediocre melee models into melee. Where they will proceed to wipe the unit and get shot to pieces the next turn.

I just realised that going to ground in area terrain gives +2 to cover saves. That means infiltrating Lictors can have 2+ cover and 'stealers 3+ cover.

Next question... the codex summary page lists Deathleaper as an Independent Character. Does he have any special rules to prevent him joining units?

 SHUPPET wrote:
EDIT:

barnowl wrote:

 Nem wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

JPong wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Are we sure that this works:

Go-to-ground in their turn outside of synapse

Start of your turn cast Dominion, they are back in Synapse

Unit is now in synapse range before movement phase, becomes fearless and "stands up" and can now move as normal? I want to use it but not sure if I'll get away with it as it seems like generous interpretation of the rule that just says "cannot go to ground". This would suggest to me that it cannot further go to ground while fearless but still keeps the negative effect from its previous GTG... can I get some help here?

While you can get back up that way, it requires either moving your synapse to a new location that may be exposed, or wasting a power. Just to keep a unit in line to do what it is supposed to do.

Well if thats how the rules work, it was more with the intention of playing like this, if it works?

Could you run 20x Genestealers behind a 30 man Termagant screen with a Venomthrope just behind but in range of both them, and a Tervigon say 15" out to the SIDE from the Stealer squad.

Advance up the board , GtG in their turn for +2 cover save with stealers, start of your turn cast Dominion with Tervigon putting them in Synapse, and get them all back up and moving as if they had never ducked?

I don't believe that works. The restrictions are placed by GtG at the time you do GtG, they are not dependant on whether you can or cannot GtG currently. – Like, not being able to, does not lift the restriction from having been.

From BRB FAQ:

Q: If a unit has the
Fearless
special rule applied to them while they
have
Gone to Ground
, are the effects of Go to Ground immediately
cancelled (for example, if this were to occur at the start of their turn
could those units then move, shoot etc. as normal in the appropriate
phases?) (p35)
A: Yes

So yes it does work. and has been a very effective tactic with infiltrators.

Well there you go.

Seems like an effective way to get Stealers to combat.

You can juggle it with a second Tervigon on the other side of the stealers as well by moving the first one out of 18" range and give them a +2 cover save all the way up the board.

I'm just using Tervi's as an example you could do it with your Flyrants, or take something much cheaper like a solo Zoanthrope.

I think I'll be getting some stealers.

I like, this and it will be fun trying to get it to work. I might be playing a test game tonight or tomorrow (my flags is releaseing the book tonight, but my friends and I have already read almost all of it). My only concern is the ability to keep the venomthrope alive. Without FNP or inserting a prime into the mix...but if the prime is in there....I can't get out of synapse to GTF....hmmmm.....this will be sticky are there are eldar players and tau players in my area....(once I can get into CC with the t3 guys, they are toast).

Ideas?

rothrich wrote:
I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I love when a new codex drops because I love to see all the whining from the "Competitive" players. Look people GW has stated on several occasions that they consider the game a "Beer and Pretzels" game. Those are the words of the people who made the game. If you want a competitive game then there are way better systems out there for that. If your argument is that "But 40k is what is popular in my area" then pm me I will be happy to buy your unpainted models for 80% off retail and you can take that money and buy yourself a nice boring taudar army and everyone with the idea of playing competitive 40k can just play taudar v. taudar. I personally think that this new nid codex sounds like it has a lot of flavor and flair. It sounds like it will be a fun book to read and a fun army to play against because the book is well balanced in the fact that there is no "must take" unit. I fortunately don't have to play pick up games so I never had to deal with the whole 4 tervigon thing or three riptides or 10 wave serpents or any other derpy army like that. If what you want is an I win button than play taudar, if what you want is competition play taudar or switch systems. If what you want is to build and paint cool models, and to play a fun casual game with your friends then play 40k. Don't whine because the company that makes a game that is made for a casual environment has written another book that will be fun in a casual environment.

I don't want an "I win" button, and I certainly don't play WAAC. That being said, though, I do like to set my models up and think I can be competitive. If you're playstyle and area is more worried about fluff and what is cinematically appropriate, I am happy for you. This means that you really shouldn't care how good the codex is, you will just take whatever takes your fancy and also not care how the game turns out. I'll admit there are times I fielded a big unit of Warriors in 5e or 6e, or Stealers in 6e just because I didn't think the army felt right without those iconic units on the field, even though I knew that put me behind before the game even started. This is the big problem, while I realize that it is nearly impossible to make every unit viable, it doesn't appear that the "design team" (and they should feel scummy using that moniker considering how bad the design is) even made an effort. Yes, THEMATICALLY, the nids are the aliens from Aliens or Starship Troopers and, while dangerous, need to lose in the end every time, it just doesn't make for a good time when you are playing the game. Am I going to stop playing them, no I am not, but does that mean I should fgive GW a pass for screwing us Nid players with another below average army that we are now going to have to suffer with until one of 2 things happen: 7th drops and there is some tech in our book that has synergy with 7th the way the 6e rules gave us biomancy (crutch, yes, but it was the only thing that kept the army remotely competitive in our one utterly boring build), or the NEXT dex drops and, by some miracle, someone at GW decides they care that the nids are competitive at that point. I won't hold my breath for either.

knas ser wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
What we really need to know is what GW will do to rectify the nids inability to take allies. This is, imo, the single greatest problem facing nids.

Sorry if this has already been addressed (this thread is a torrent!), but who on Earth would actually ally with Tyranids? Genestealer cults I suppose, if you consider them not-Tyranids already. But anyone else? It would be like allying with a virus. It doesn't care about your politics, it just wants to subvert your biology. It's already weird enough for me that they have "Unique Artifacts".

No one would "ally" with tyranids, of course. That's why I didn't say "why hasn't GW let tyranids take allies", rather I asked why they haven't set right this imbalance right and corrected it via some adjustment (rectify). Nids are the only army that get screwed out of one of the premiere mechanics of 6th edition. Why? Very little of this thread has been spent discussing this major let down and I feel sorely disappointed that I can't design lists with the depth that allied forces allow and yet receive nothing to balance it.

 xttz wrote:
I just realised that going to ground in area terrain gives +2 to cover saves. That means infiltrating Lictors can have 2+ cover and 'stealers 3+ cover.

Next question... the codex summary page lists Deathleaper as an Independent Character. Does he have any special rules to prevent him joining units?

The codex summary pages in the 6th edition codices, while helpful for quick in-game referencing, have all been RIFE with typos and errors. The army list entry (in spanish) that i've seen does not have him listed with the Independent Character special rule, just Infantry (Character) as his type.

Deathleaper will be rockin' it solo. But a 2+ go to ground cover save, slingshotted back into synapse with a flyrant on turn 1, makes him a nifty threat. Personally I think he's better at harassing backfield units like scouts, and hiding for linebreaker.

JPong wrote:
With the synapse fearless trick, remember, you are putting a ton of points into an easily killed gimmick. If it fails, you have neutered your army for a gimmick. A predictable gimmick at that. All for getting 20 mediocre melee models into melee. Where they will proceed to wipe the unit and get shot to pieces the next turn.

I wouldn't describe Tervigons or Tyrantstars as EASILY killed, nor would I describe genestealers as mediocre models once they make it to melee. If it fails they have no IB check anyway, all you've really lost by doing it is trading (one of) your rolled powers for Dominion and possibly some positioning choices, but every army tactic comes with some forced positioning choices based on the models you picked, it really doesn't seem such a terrible trade off for a +2 cover saves as you make out. Also, if you plan for it you can just do it again once they wipe the squad they assault. Yes I know cover ignoring weapons but meh, what you can you do about it.

 xttz wrote:
I just realised that going to ground in area terrain gives +2 to cover saves. That means infiltrating Lictors can have 2+ cover and 'stealers 3+ cover.

Next question... the codex summary page lists Deathleaper as an Independent Character. Does he have any special rules to prevent him joining units?

He's not an Independent Character. He's In(ch) as in Infantry (character). Independent Character is a special rule that would be noted in the unit special rules and not on their stat line.