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 skoffs wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Also the Typhon, Fellblade, Cerberus via IA:2.

Wait, really?
So all FW/IA units are allowed in normal 40k games now without needing express permission from your opponent?

At the moment, the only super heavies includable in a normal 40k game are the one's in escalation. These you can just bring if you feel like.

Until FW make some lords of war faq's that is

Edit for accuracy's sake on reading the post beneath - And the new IA sm book

 skoffs wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Also the Typhon, Fellblade, Cerberus via IA:2.

Wait, really?
So all FW/IA units are allowed in normal 40k games now without needing express permission from your opponent?

The most recent IA book lists the superheavies as lords of war. Currently only the space marines have the full variety, but there will almost certainly be some sort of update soon to give everyone access to their stuff. It's just a matter of waiting for the updates to come out. That does mean the Phantom will eventually be 40k legal (presumably) but given the nerf it got in the most recent apocalypse book and the crazy high points cost I doubt it will see much play. It isn't more than twice as good a Revenant unless your opponent is relying on void shields to protect his stuff. Speaking of void shields, once the Cobra gets converted to a lord of war anyone relying on them is going to get a rude awakening. Not only is it a 10" D blast that ignores void shields, it's a vortex weapon, so it can potentially persist and deny access to an objective or fortification.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Also the Typhon, Fellblade, Cerberus via IA:2.

Wait, really?
So all FW/IA units are allowed in normal 40k games now without needing express permission from your opponent?

The most recent IA book lists the superheavies as lords of war. Currently only the space marines have the full variety, but there will almost certainly be some sort of update soon to give everyone access to their stuff. It's just a matter of waiting for the updates to come out. That does mean the Phantom will eventually be 40k legal (presumably) but given the nerf it got in the most recent apocalypse book and the crazy high points cost I doubt it will see much play. It isn't more than twice as good a Revenant unless your opponent is relying on void shields to protect his stuff. Speaking of void shields, once the Cobra gets converted to a lord of war anyone relying on them is going to get a rude awakening. Not only is it a 10" D blast that ignores void shields, it's a vortex weapon, so it can potentially persist and deny access to an objective or fortification.

The cobra got nerfed - it's only a 7" pie plate now...

 skoffs wrote:
But as someone else pointed out, the REAL problem for us is going to be those Gargantuan Creatures.

As Necrons, I would think that mindshackle scarabs would be your friend against those. From what battle reports that have come out, it looks like a very viable tactic is to use things like puppet master/hallucination to neutralize a super-heavy or turn it against your opponent.

For GK, I've come up with:
Deepstriking a paladin squad with 4 psycannons, attach an ordo malleus inquisitor with psycannon. Depending on rear armor psybolts might be good too. Lots of points though.
Dropping purifiers or purgation squad (4 psycannons) w/attached inquisitor out of a storm raven, going for rear armor.
Acolytes can take 3 meltaguns per unit.
Dreadknights, if you can catch it/avoid the D-weapons.
Orbital Strikes
Lots of storm ravens.

I'm really hoping to see something along the lines of a vortex grenade...Something added to basic 40k army to specifically take down super heavies, that'd make the game fair-er so we don't all get D-ed first turn and shake hands.

Dark Eldar has the superior weaponry against gargantuan creatures and Necrons have the superiority against super heavies. But for other races I think other than deep strike there isn't a single unit that can last on the table before being able to strike back(assuming you don't get first turn. Tactically always prepare for the worst!)

Honestly I don't see the fuss.

Even the "unkillable" revenant, when shot on melta range at BS4 from the front/side will take a pen result (after the holo field) you will pen it with 10/36 shots, and glace 1/36 shots.
Not amazing, but not shabby. and as a pen with AP1 got 1/2 to get "explode" result (1d3 more glaces) means you got, on average, out of 36 shots a grand total of 21 hull point stripped (and 5/36 "immobilized" or "weapon destroyed" results)

Now 21 hull points in 36 shots (not hits, SHOTS) translates to that you need about 15 melta shots to kill it. not easy, but doable over a game.
Not easy with melta-but remember its only front 12, and rear 10. even lighter guns CAN contribute a few glances to help the cause.
And if you managed to get some melta in the rear, the numbers go even higher to 54 hull points in 36 shots, that's about 6 melta shots required for an average takedown.
Again, SHOTS, not hits. a single squad of drop-pod sternguard with combi-meltas should OVERkill it in one volly if they hit it in the rear.
A team of 3 fusion suits and a fusion commander (or support commander) should achieve the same results.


And if something with haywire, or anything else that features large numbers of high-S attacks managed to get into CC, its also good as gone.
Sure, your assault termies are unlikely to survive the experience, but its still a 250ish point unit that got a good chance of killing alone a 900 points one.

Just drop the expensive units who are expected to pull the army, and start running individualistic units that are expected to cause much damage, but ever expected to survive.
Use your early units to clear out any bubble wrap, deep strike anti-tank guns, and take it out.

People panic because they didn't do the math.
Math-wise, it can be one-shot by units quarter its cost if dedicated for the job. and a balanced army should have no massive issue with it except it's high damage output. (who can be cut down by running MSU units who are not individually worth alot)

Honestly? the screamer/ovesa stars are HARDER to kill, much harder.
They don't do quite as much damage. but they got no such clear solutions. I'd rather face a superheavy then them any day.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now 21 hull points in 36 shots (not hits, SHOTS) translates to that you need about 15 melta shots to kill it. not easy, but doable over a game.

I'm not sure about your math, but I'll trust it for the sake of argument. The issue with the revenant is that if you don't kill it in one turn, it will jump out of range of your melta and nuke them with D weapons. Or just ignore them, and paste the rest of your army. Yes, there are ways to fight things like this, but the issue is always going to be surviving until you can get that killer blow. There's also bubble wrap, interceptor, and terrain.

The issue people have is that a D weapon has a 5/6 chance to one-shot any vehicle. You don't get any saves against it, and it requires highly specialized units to fight it. It turns the game into "kill the super-heavy" which is not very diverse. You can't camp on objectives when there are large blast weapons that ignore all saves shooting at you.

Yes there are many ways to kill super-heavies, and there are many less worrisome than the revenant. But, I think the concern is justified.

 skoffs wrote:

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
Also the Typhon, Fellblade, Cerberus via IA:2.

Wait, really?
So all FW/IA units are allowed in normal 40k games now without needing express permission from your opponent?

Not sure if this is true.

Those are not escalation units, those are FW Units.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Now 21 hull points in 36 shots (not hits, SHOTS) translates to that you need about 15 melta shots to kill it. not easy, but doable over a game.

I'm not sure about your math, but I'll trust it for the sake of argument. The issue with the revenant is that if you don't kill it in one turn, it will jump out of range of your melta and nuke them with D weapons. Or just ignore them, and paste the rest of your army. Yes, there are ways to fight things like this, but the issue is always going to be surviving until you can get that killer blow. There's also bubble wrap, interceptor, and terrain.

The issue people have is that a D weapon has a 5/6 chance to one-shot any vehicle. You don't get any saves against it, and it requires highly specialized units to fight it. It turns the game into "kill the super-heavy" which is not very diverse. You can't camp on objectives when there are large blast weapons that ignore all saves shooting at you.

Yes there are many ways to kill super-heavies, and there are many less worrisome than the revenant. But, I think the concern is justified.

That's the beuty of it, the rundown is under the assumption you got melta, and melta alone.
Not even a single S7 gun to be found in the entire list.

Once you factor in S7 guns, S6 guns, and rear-shooting S5 guns, the revenant collapses quickly.

And should hit run 36" away from the melta?
Let him. I'll deepstrike another unit to hurt him.
Or use the ranged AT to finish off what's left of him.

He can 1-shot any tank? yep. even 2 of them per turn.
But that's still not half his cost. and I can one-shoot him with dedicated AT deepstriking melta for approximately 200 points with multiple armies.
And the others can usually bring jets who can ruin his day.
Only a few armies really struggle to find ANY answer, and these armies are the ones currently broken down and in serious need of patching as it is.

I'm not saying they will be pushovers, I'm saying they got answers, and said answers are available all over.
And in turn they give an answer to the pesky "rerollable 2++" deathstars.

If you play escalation, you pretty much have to use the new warlord traits. No scatter deep strike withing 6" of a Lord of War? Armorbane and fleshbane against one? Yeah, those are incredibly useful.

 McNinja wrote:
If you play escalation, you pretty much have to use the new warlord traits. No scatter deep strike withing 6" of a Lord of War? Armorbane and fleshbane against one? Yeah, those are incredibly useful.

Considering that as a Necron player, I don't have any Warlord traits outside of Imperial Armor, I'm ok with that.

Yes, the new anti-SHV traits are very, very good. My only gripe with them is that most of them are warlord specific. As in, they only apply to the Warlord and his unit. I was never a fan of those.
Still, that no scatter trait is probably the most powerful out of all of them.

I'm pretty sure it's just the units with a special rule (which's name escapes me... heard it just earlier... dammit, it's gone).

though i hear some FW models are getting the rule added to them, so more things will filter into normal 40k.

looking forward to taking a kustom stompa though, one belly gun and the entire enemy army is hit...

Unfortunately, I don't have access to the books with rules for superheavies.

If it ever came up, my plan was to deploy my Salamander Sternguard in a drop pod right next to it and unload with 4-8 combi-meltas on it. Will that do the trick?

Against a revenant Titan? No. Against literally anything else, yes.

So as a Chaos Player, what are my options dealing with super heavies so far I've come up with...

1. Bring a case that's easy to open and close since I'll be packing up after turn 2.

2. Learn Chinese so I can curse in a new language after I'm wiped on turn 2.

3. Switch Armies

I really really really hope I will never have to face an eldar titan...

2x210 wrote:
So as a Chaos Player, what are my options dealing with super heavies so far I've come up with...

1. Bring a case that's easy to open and close since I'll be packing up after turn 2.

2. Learn Chinese so I can curse in a new language after I'm wiped on turn 2.

3. Switch Armies

I like

4. Deep Striking Obliterators
5. Predator Annihilator
6. Deep Striking melta termicide
7. Heldrakes can't be shot down very easily with a titan - no blast weapons can hit them (ie - for killing the rest of his forces)
8. Flying Demon Prince with the black mace gets up to 9 attacks at s10
9. Buy your own super heavy - The Lord of Skulls. Looks dumb, but will make your opponant nervous. A 60" range 10" blast with st9 and ap3 forcing your opponant to re-roll successful saves could be useful.
10. Havocs armed with lascannons
11. Chosen in a transport with melta
12. Chosen in a transport with plasma (going for rear armour)
13. Deep striking plasma termicide
14. Forge fiend with the st8 assault cannon type gun
15. Lord of skulls with the 12 shot st8 ap3 assault cannon type thing

You might not have all of that on the table, but you should have some

 Jimsolo wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have access to the books with rules for superheavies.

If it ever came up, my plan was to deploy my Salamander Sternguard in a drop pod right next to it and unload with 4-8 combi-meltas on it. Will that do the trick?

If you hit the rear, it should to even against a revenant to drop 6, on average. but you should drop more for being more reliable.

The front, you will need about 15 melta shots against the revenant.
So you better have some backup plan if you only bring 8ish meltas.

For chaos I would go with deep striking termies, obliterators or chosen with massed special weapons.

For my eldar I can now see a brand new use for fire dragons. I think the necessity of them went down in the new codex but a big unit of them in a serpent would be a great super heavy killer!

Use a lot of dakka on right part of it. Or someone with strong choppa.

(really, SH are not unkillable, just some of them carry a big punch)

 rohansoldier wrote:
For chaos I would go with deep striking termies, obliterators or chosen with massed special weapons.

For my eldar I can now see a brand new use for fire dragons. I think the necessity of them went down in the new codex but a big unit of them in a serpent would be a great super heavy killer!

How about corsair allies?
IIRC, the Corsair prince lets you deep strike fire dragons or wraithguard.

What can Illic make infiltrate?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't have access to the books with rules for superheavies.

If it ever came up, my plan was to deploy my Salamander Sternguard in a drop pod right next to it and unload with 4-8 combi-meltas on it. Will that do the trick?

No it will not really work. The enemy will see it coming and bubble wrap the Superheavy.

Anyone recall off hand how Entropic Strike works against SHs now?
(I recall someone saying Canoptek Scarabs are no longer anything for them to fear, but never bother paying attention as to why, before)

 skoffs wrote:
Anyone recall off hand how Entropic Strike works against SHs now?

It doesn't. At all.

 Peregrine wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Anyone recall off hand how Entropic Strike works against SHs now?

It doesn't. At all.

Lances work normal. But weapons which would lower the AV permanently do not.

Haywire attacks also seem effective. EMP fire warriors ATTACK!

I think the Necron Royal Court is probably the most cost-effective option. 25 points for a Voltaic Staff is nuts. The only issue is getting it into range. Veilteks are one option, but deep striking without scatter mitigation is pretty risky. Splitting the Court up among some Night Scythes is probably safer, even though it forces you to wait until turn 2 to use it.

Drop Podding Combi-Melta Wolf Guard are a good alternative for Imperial armies. 23 points per shot with a very reasonable deployment cost.

Some imperial thoughts:

Gravguns + jaws for the gargantuans seem like a good deal.

Then lots of drop pods with meltaguns + barrage weapons to clear a landing zone.

You also want to go first quite frequently and MSU = only choice, so poor underplayed Coteaz finally might see some playtime.

Sounds like a white scar + space wolf + INQ party

Maybe also bring a large fortification to hide stuff behind.

Other option might be IG+SM flyer heavy, immune to a lot of the bad stuff, but will probably struggle with actually killing superheavies, and of course they are much worse than necron flyers at stealing objectives

What good are grav guns? Super-heavies are immune to their effects.

Jaws of the World Wolf seems like a good idea until you remember that vehicles are immune and most Gargantuan Creatures will have decent initiative and get a bonus for being (counted as) a monstrous creature. And even if it succeeds, you're only removing d3 wounds.

Psychic Shriek is an interesting choice, though -- you should average almost 1.5 wounds after a successful hit. Gargantuan Creatures are no better than any other Ld10 model in this regard.

I think flyers might be the best counter against the revenant. It has no air defense (a single S5 missile isn't going to do much), and it's only AV12. If a flyer can churn out S7+, it might be able to do some damage.