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 easysauce wrote:


LOL... sisters dont do so well against astartes... GK walked right though them in those books, I doubt that SW's would have much trouble destryoing SOB...

even if they are not the official "astartes" killer anymore.. they still have the #'s training, niche skills ect to do the job better then anyone else. SOB and minotaurs included.

Ooooh man, I figured this would get you a lot of hate.

I agree, 10,000 years ago they were the executioners, I'm not sure that any one chapter embodies that roll now if any.

Also, I never heard the fluff on the Grey Knights being the ones that purge the traitor chapters... were they on the rosters for any of the 'Black Crusades'? They're the militant wing of the Ordo Malleus and considering that getting more then a hand full of them into any conflict is tough, I doubt they'd have the ability to destroy an entire traitor chapter. Or at least, if that was the case, they dropped the ball big time at Badab.

 Psienesis wrote:

They had killed an Inquisitor, who is a representative of the authority of the Emperor, and in so doing denied the authority of the God-Emperor of Mankind. They don't need to be worshipping pagan gods to be heretics.

And most of the other inquisitors present pretty much said "yeah, sounds about right" and packed it in. This is just irrational Space Wolf hate.

 j31c3n wrote:
If the Soritas had somehow through some crazy amount of plot armor (see what I did there?)

I don't think anyone's said that that fight itself was an example of plot armour. It could very well have been a perfectly even fight, since we don't know how big the attacking Orders were.

 j31c3n wrote:
and no evidence of worshipping "pagan gods" was found (because the Space Wolves simply don't worship "pagan gods"),

But this wasn't the Ecclesiarchy's only grievence, at this point. The Wolves murdered some clergymen simply for approaching them.

 j31c3n wrote:
those orders would probably be purged in retaliation by the order of the Lords of Terra.

Sororitas Orders are very valuable resources too, you know. And far more loyal and obidient than the Space Wolves.

 j31c3n wrote:
Three Orders of Soritas coming into Fenrisian space as a show of force, picking off a few Space Wolves for vengeance purposes, and then bouncing is also pretty routine.

Is it? I wouldn't call something like that a routine event. And yet, the Ecclesiarchy were allowed to go ahead with it. Remember, the Ecclesiarchy only stopped when they realised that it wasn't worth the effort. Before then, they were quite committed to putting some serious hurt on the Wolves. Yet they showed no hesitation in doing so, nor did anybody tell them off or try to stop them.

If they really wanted to annihilate a Space Marine chapter (as they apparently do with frequency in the unwritten fluff) they would have known to bring more forces than they did. Not a serious attempt.

 Matt1785 wrote:
Ooooh man, I figured this would get you a lot of hate.

Nobody's hating, just pointing out what the fluff actually says. It's untrue that the Sisters are ineffective agianst the Astartes, and the fluff is indeed silent on the Wolves being specialist Marine killers at present. The Minotaurs, meanwhile, are said to actually have that specialisation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 j31c3n wrote:
If they really wanted to annihilate a Space Marine chapter (as they apparently do with frequency in the unwritten fluff) they would have known to bring more forces than they did.

And they apparently thought that three Orders was enough, since they kept them at it for three weeks. And, since the Sisters weren't driven out but withdrew, it sounds like it was an even fight.

 j31c3n wrote:
Not a serious attempt.

Again, three Orders is actually a fair bit for them to commit. And the Ecclesiarchy isn't known for half-arsing things anyway, I think they'd be pretty serious about anything they sent in three Orders for.

 Troike wrote:

Again, three Orders is actually a fair bit for them to commit. And the Ecclesiarchy isn't known for half-arsing things anyway, I think they'd be pretty serious about anything they sent in three Orders for.

Come to think about it, it'd be nice if we had a Black Library story/novel on this instead of the usual shallow bolter porn. ....they never go into depth regarding sisters culture, politics, and whatever else behind such actions anywhere, forcing everything to always be "What if" and "well, I think based on this, they probably" interpretation junk.

Not that Black Library would be a definitive source but better than nothing! (since nothing is what we get from White Dwarf these days on WH40k setting issues)

 j31c3n wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

They had killed an Inquisitor, who is a representative of the authority of the Emperor, and in so doing denied the authority of the God-Emperor of Mankind. They don't need to be worshipping pagan gods to be heretics.

And most of the other inquisitors present pretty much said "yeah, sounds about right" and packed it in. This is just irrational Space Wolf hate.

The Space Wolves, directly by their actions, allowed the destruction of five Imperial Worlds, in exchange for saving a few thousand Guardsmen.

This is idiocy of the highest order, simply because the Space Wolves apparently are too stupid to understand how Chaos works.

Chaos doesn't give a feth about its mortal followers. None of them. So it makes perfect sense to the Ruinous Powers to throw away five hundred million cultists and traitor soldiers at Armageddon to let ONE DUDE, ONE TAINTED CITIZEN, escape the planet to carry that taint to another Hive World where it will CORRUPT BILLIONS.

... and the Space Wolves wanted to let that citizen go, because, aw, shucks, they're good people.

The Inquisition, knowing how Chaos works (because it is their fething job to know these things) said "feth that, kill 'em all". The SW got their panties in a bunch and started a war with the Inquisition. Because they're fething stupid.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Come to think about it, it'd be nice if we had a Black Library story/novel on this instead of the usual shallow bolter porn.

Indeed! Though I would obviously prefer to have it be an author who would take time to research the Sisters and portray them accurately.

TiamatRoar wrote:
....they never go into depth regarding sisters culture, politics, and whatever else behind such actions anywhere, forcing everything to always be "What if" and "well, I think based on this, they probably" interpretation junk.

The codexes and WDs have covered more than you'd think. A lot of the more in-depth stuff actually comes from the 2E codex and old WDs, so it's a little obscure. I've only found out about it by hanging around here and reading the posts of others, myself.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Not that Black Library would be a definitive source but better than nothing!

Actually, I'm of the opinion that BL can be really good for stuff like this at times, when an author does a little research. James Swallow, for example, really captured the Sisters well in his books, and obviously had a good understanding of them. He did deviate from the studio fluff a tiny bit, I'm told, but otherwise he wrote a nice, "up-close" look at the SoB. If an author could do the same for the Sisters whilst avoid hyping up the Wolves too much, I'd buy it.

 Troike wrote:

The codexes and WDs have covered more than you'd think. A lot of the more in-depth stuff actually comes from the 2E codex and old WDs, so it's a little obscure. I've only found out about it by hanging around here and reading the posts of others, myself.

What I mean is that, even if it's covered a lot, it's sadly not nearly enough, judging by the number of "I think that, because" statements in this thread. Things like 3 orders attacking the Space Wolves for so long really deserves more than just a blurb, because it leaves open so many questions as to exactly what the hell everyone felt or thought about such things for one thing (like did all the other organizations really just sit by and watch? And why? Who agreed with such things? Does the entire sisterhood hold enmity over that or just a few? Is such an incident standard procedure par for the course or was it a huge deal? etc etc)

People may have mixed feelings about The Emperor's Gift (the novel about the First War for Armegeddon and its aftermath) but it at least went through a lot of lengths to answer such cultural questions (such as "Do other Imperial members know about Bjorn and what do they feel about him?" and "How did the Grey Knights feel about the Space Wolves during this incident?" etc etc)

Though we do at least know some cultural things about the sisters like "they dislike the Astartes' view of the Emperor as a man but respect them as fellow warriors". It's just not enough when you go farther into things like regarding the Space Wolves and this Ecclesiarchy incident.

name one full chapter the SOB have wiped out...

is it more, or less then the # the SW's have wiped out?

because the SW wiped out an entire pre heresy legion, not some piddly 40k chapter,
very big difference in scale between 40k chapters and 30k legions.

I also dont believe for a second that the wolves keep their #'s down to whatever gulliman tells them too.

when the 3 SOB houses tried to wipe out sw's, did they?

no they did not, because they could not, weather you argue that they retreated, had had enough, or whatever reason you have for them giving up,

they gave up,
they did not win, they didnt necessarily lose, but most certainly did not win.

most of the time though, when you attack and plan to destroy an enemy, and take all your best toys and all your armies to fight them, when they do not have everything from their army to defend with, but you STILL end up retreating and not actually destroying them, or acheiving anything of note, we generally call that losing. but its your fluff, you are allowed to put SOB above astartes in power levels if you so choose.

the book I read that has astartes VS SOB, is the GK book where they are fighting because the SOB think the GK are chaos.

The GK walked through them, and its not because the SOB are "tired" thats just an excuse, as the GK have ALSO been fighting the whole way there, through both SOB and chaos... so they are "tired" too..

SOB would need a lot of navy and IG support and bring all three houses to get up to the power level of the SW's full chapter(legion remnants), on their home turf.

then entireaty of the SOB houses vs some generic chapter would likely end poorly for the chapter,

but SOB vs any of the first founding legions, who are much more powerful then the other chapters is no contest, SOB lose.

TiamatRoar wrote:
What I mean is that, even if it's covered a lot, it's sadly not nearly enough,

True, true. SoB fluff hasn't had much major growth for a while. 3E? Shared with another faction. 5E? Small WD codex. 6E? Largely recycled. They're long due for some fleshing out.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Things like 3 orders attacking the Space Wolves for so long really deserves more than just a blurb, because it leaves open so many questions as to exactly what the hell everyone felt or thought about such things for one thing (like did all the other organizations really just sit by and watch? And why? Who agreed with such things? Does the entire sisterhood hold enmity over that or just a few? Is such an incident standard procedure par for the course or was it a huge deal? etc etc)

Yeah, I too would love to hear more details about this. It'd be quite the epic battle, and I imagine that the the politcal movements within the three factions involved would be interesting to see.

Though, to be fair, I imagine that there's other major events like this that've just gotten a blurb, so far, so this may just the way of things in 40K fluff, sometimes.

easysauce also keep in mind the SW probably didn't do it solo. Even against the Thousand Sons, in reality SW were only one part of it. It was TS (whom had sent several ships away on purpose and Magnus had purposefully weakened the planet) versus, a group of elite Custodes, Sisters of Battle that are all blanks (forget their name Sisters of Silence I believe) aaaand thousand Sons.

Anyways, it doesn't matter what SW once did. What they were and what they have become have changed dramatically as they went from attack dog to VIKINGS IN SPACE with extra wolves with a penchant for disobeying orders and ruining billions of lives for the sake of a small minority.

Also it's not that they keep their numbers down to what Gulliman said, but they are stuck on a single planet with 0 successors. They have about 1200-2000 marines+ the honor guard and sorts. A marine army is 1000+honor guard and sorts (well usually under strength) so by that nature you have about double the normal chapter within the SW.

Against 3 orders of SoB, even with the wolves having a home field advantage it was 3 weeks of warfare and then the SoB left because higher ups decided it really wasn't worth wasting more time. The ecclesiary half arses stuff unlike Inquisitors


Also keep in mind that SoB fluff is often treated horrendously. It's usually only vaguely understood and treated with disdain and often they suffer the same problem as CSM and guardsman. Whenever a marine comes they immediately become absolutely fething stupid and their armour becomes worth nothing. Or should I use every expanded universe book/movie? Because I will argue that the Ultramarine movie does quite well in being absolute nonsense. When SW have 100 books (don't know the number) focused upon them and SoB have very little fluff at all, it's going to be easy to throw it to the SM. Also GK are special snowflakes even amongs SM and are claimed to be SM+1 so meh.

 easysauce wrote:

because the SW wiped out an entire pre heresy legion, not some piddly 40k chapter,
very big difference in scale between 40k chapters and 30k legions.

Never claimed that the Sisters had killed more Marines. All I said was that the Wolves aren't noted as having that role in the present day, while the Sisters have it as one of their major duties.

 easysauce wrote:
they did not win, they didnt necessarily lose, but most certainly did not win.

Nobody said that the Sisters won. What they did is fight a war against the Wolves for a while and pull out after the Ecclesiarchy decided that it wasn't worth it. What happened was a draw, neither faction bested the other.

 easysauce wrote:
but its your fluff, you are allowed to put SOB above astartes in power levels if you so choose.

Not what I'm doing at all. I'm saying that the Sisters are capable of beating Astartes, not that they are bette than them. You're the one who said that the Sisters do poorly against Marines, yet the fluff says otherwise.

 easysauce wrote:
the book I read that has astartes VS SOB, is the GK book where they are fighting because the SOB think the GK are chaos.

The GK walked through them, and its not because the SOB are "tired" thats just an excuse, as the GK have ALSO been fighting the whole way there, through both SOB and chaos... so they are "tired" too..

I said that I was talking about the Bloodtide when I mentioned the Sisters being worn down. What you're thinking of is a Ben Counter book.

 easysauce wrote:
SOB would need a lot of navy and IG support and bring all three houses to get up to the power level of the SW's full chapter(legion remnants), on their home turf.

Nope, all we hear about is three Orders going in. No IG or navy support. And these three Orders were apparently enough to give the Wolves an even fight right in their home turf. But, in fairness, we don't know how big these Orders were, so the exact balance of the two isn't known.

 easysauce wrote:
then entireaty of the SOB houses

The SoB are organised into Orders, not houses.

 easysauce wrote:
but SOB vs any of the first founding legions, who are much more powerful then the other chapters is no contest, SOB lose.

Well, that all depends on how many Sisters they bring. I'd try judging a fairly even fight between the two armies, but honestly there's no real answer to that, and such a debate would probably descend into pointlessness anyway.

name one full chapter the SOB have wiped out...

Name a Chapter the Space Wolves have wiped out that wasn't The Thousand Sons.

I also dont believe for a second that the wolves keep their #'s down to whatever gulliman tells them too.

Fenris simply doesn't have the population to support a huge Chapter. It's a Feral World. Each Great Company is like a small, mini-Chapter in function, not in size.

when the 3 SOB houses tried to wipe out sw's, did they?

no they did not, because they could not, weather you argue that they retreated, had had enough, or whatever reason you have for them giving up,

they gave up,
they did not win, they didnt necessarily lose, but most certainly did not win.

That is not a debated point.

SOB would need a lot of navy and IG support and bring all three houses to get up to the power level of the SW's full chapter(legion remnants), on their home turf.

Following their war with the Inquisition, the Space Wolves' naval assets are crippled. They lost most of their fleet. Whether they had recovered this in only four centuries is not made clear.

There's also a lot more Sisters than there are Space Wolves, incidentally.

most of the time though, when you attack and plan to destroy an enemy, and take all your best toys and all your armies to fight them, when they do not have everything from their army to defend with, but you STILL end up retreating and not actually destroying them, or acheiving anything of note, we generally call that losing. but its your fluff, you are allowed to put SOB above astartes in power levels if you so choose.

No one is putting the SOB above Astartes in power levels. We're simply telling you what the Codices say about the Sisters. If you want to match "victories" to "power levels", then the Red Corsairs are stronger than the Space Wolves, as the Red Corsairs forced the SW to withdraw from the Lastrati system in 926.M41. So the Space Vikings got wtfpwned by some Space Pirates.

This, though, is a stupid argument to have. Sometimes, the battle is not ending as quickly as you would like, and your forces are needed elsewhere, so you withdraw. See also: Damocles Gulf Crusade.

If the Ecclesiarchy was serious about wiping out the Space Wolves with their obviously-not-enough three Orders, then they are fools. You don't commit to an "even fight." You commit to a fight that you can win, or to a fight that you MUST win. Throwing Soritas against the meatgrinder of the Fang and then calling it quitsies and fleeing the system is not a winning fight, and if they ran away it was obviously not a needed fight either.

The Ecclesiarchy either:

a) vastly underestimated the force required to purge an Astartes chapter,

or

b) did not seriously attempt to purge the Space Wolves.

Given that they are, in the fluff, responsible for purging heretical Astartes, I think they would know the required force to wipe out an entire chapter. This renders option "a" very unlikely.

The whole sisters-besieging-SW thing did certainly not seem like a draw to me. The sisters attacked, they besieged the SW. They bounced off the walls of the Fang and eventually retreated (A 'waste of time'? No doubt, any siege where you can't best the defenders is.), which, given that it is a -siege-, seems like a victory for the Wolves.

The goal of the Sisters was (Assumingly) to purge the Space Wolves.

The goal of the Space Wolves was to defend Fenris.

The Space Wolves were not purged.

Fenris was successfully defended.

How can that not be a win for SW and a loss for SoB?

In the end, this is irrelevant. The Space Wolves won, because of course they did. They're the Space Wolves. They don't lose.

...except when fighting smarter Chaos Marines. Huron Blackheart pwned them on Lastrati.

 j31c3n wrote:
If the Ecclesiarchy was serious about wiping out the Space Wolves with their obviously-not-enough three Orders, then they are fools. You don't commit to an "even fight." You commit to a fight that you can win, or to a fight that you MUST win. Throwing Soritas against the meatgrinder of the Fang and then calling it quitsies and fleeing the system is not a winning fight, and if they ran away it was obviously not a needed fight either.

The Ecclesiarchy either:

a) vastly underestimated the force required to purge an Astartes chapter,

or

b) did not seriously attempt to purge the Space Wolves.

Given that they are, in the fluff, responsible for purging heretical Astartes, I think they would know the required force to wipe out an entire chapter. This renders option "a" very unlikely.

Thing is, they aren't known to be responsible for purging heretical astarates. In the Horus Heresy era they were known for it. They were hinted at having purged a legion (which that legion might have been big or medium or small) and then, with the help of custodes and Sisters of Battle (da da da. All of them blanks so they caused pain the the army's sorcerers and weakened them) to destroy what was arguably one of the smallest, if not the smallest legion of all. Since then, GK, Minotaurs, and SoB are more iconic for their purging of other chapters. Simply put, Space Wolves aren't what t hey used to be. Look at what they did to the Thousand Sons. They went, they slaughtered, and they reveled in it. Now they throw a hissy fit at the notion of 1000 guardsman and 10000 civilians being killed.

Just a bit of a correction, the burning of Prospero featured the Sisters of Silence. The Sisters of Battle did not exist in the GC/Heresy era, and are not blanks (nor are they psykers... thou shalt not suffer the witch to live.)

 Psienesis wrote:
Just a bit of a correction, the burning of Prospero featured the Sisters of Silence. The Sisters of Battle did not exist in the GC/Heresy era, and are not blanks (nor are they psykers... thou shalt not suffer the witch to live.)

Darn it. I had a hunch they were the Sisters of Silence. I guessed the name earlier but didn't want to say again SoB I think they are called Sisters of Silence. Hrmmmm.... well them not being blanks is news to me. Admittedly I was using wiki sources on this. Lexicanum and the warhammer 40k wiki. Both of them referenced SoS being blanks as they were recruited to black ships to be anathema to psykers. Arguably, even if not blanks, they would rpobably have some sort of ways to cause agony to psykers due to their profession.

SoS are blanks. SoB are not. They can, however, deny the witch because of their faith in the God-Emperor. Used to be, this even affected "friendly" psychic powers.

The Sisters of Battle really, really don't like psykers who aren't the God-Emperor of Mankind.

I agree that Space Wolves are no longer the go-to chapter for purging other Marines; that is no longer their function, principally because the Wolves have no loyalty to the Imperium, but rather to the Emperor.

Culling rogue chapters is one of the Sororitas' functions, and it is on record that they have done so on at least a few occasions. This can not be debated.

The only question whether is how adept the Sisters are at culling chapters, compared to Marines.

That's a bit harder of a question to definitely answer, because the fluff that highlights Sisters purging chapters has all been very vague and grand in their overviews.

 Psienesis wrote:
SoS are blanks. SoB are not. They can, however, deny the witch because of their faith in the God-Emperor. Used to be, this even affected "friendly" psychic powers.

The Sisters of Battle really, really don't like psykers who aren't the God-Emperor of Mankind.

I am deeply sorry, I know that. I was meaning to speak of the Sisters of Silence but instead used SoB by mistake.

they took three ordos, which wasnt enough to kill the SW's single chapter, and each ordos is basically the "chapter" of the SOB, and if someone would like to go into more detail about the actual #'s involved in a SOB ordos, I would love to hear about how many troops ect are in each.


why did the SOB go there in the first place if they were not seroius about the purge... seems like travelling across the galaxy to kill people on your side is already pretty serious... takes a lot of handwaiving to make it seem like "they MEANT to engage in, and run from, a battle they couldnt decisively win"...

why go there in the first place if you are not serious? surely there is something more important you could have done with all that manpower, such as protecting some civvies or something from chaos/aliens/ect

much more likely, is that they simply were not prepared for what they faced, as underestimating an enemy is one of the most common and reapeated mistakes in warfare, and the SOB dont get a free pass in this case.


so if the SOB get to call their allies (other ordos) then why cant the SW ask other chapters for help too?

its like saying SM beat IG, cause the ultra marines+imperial fists could own the whole planet of catachan.

so sure if the SOB brought every single resource they have, (IE all the ordos, or whatever the magic # of ordos they need to take out a single chapter is) they could win if the SW were totally alone, but it still wouldnt be worth it, as they showed when they withdrew instead of commiting more ordos to the fight.

if the SOB get to bring allies,we also have to take into account that the SW's would be able to have allies as well.

Aside from a few SM chapters I am sure lots of guard would side with the guys who seem to the only people in the universe who seem to give a damn about their lives....

besides which
The IG can take out any SM chapter they want too... or the entireaty of the SOB,
a couple chapters could "buddy up" to take out a third chapter...
so its not like it came down to them being able to withstand the SOB at all really, as plenty of other stuff "could" wipe them out.

but hasnt wiped them out, for the same reason the SOB didnt,

IE they are too hard of a target, and taking them out does nothing that makes the cost of taking them out worth while,

If the survivors of the First War for Armageddon were so tainted, why did the High Lords decide to let them live in the first place?

The original judgement was that the social elite would live their original luxurious existence and provide leadership to the new people they brought to replenish the planet. Meanwhile, the lower class survivors who had fought beside the Space Wolves against Chaos were to be sterilized and put in slave labour colonies in the polar regions of the planet.

It was the High Lords who decided to spare the lives of the people, not the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves disagreed that the folks who had fought so hard against Chaos deserved to be sterilized and used as slaves.

It was probably the sterilization thing. Too much like neutering for the Wolves to stand.

If the survivors of the First War for Armageddon were so tainted, why did the High Lords decide to let them live in the first place?

They didn't. The entire populace was sterilized and sent to concentration camps, where they were worked to death. This was done.

However, due to things (probably because it's inevitable in such a large undertaking), a few thousand Guardsmen slipped through the net and boarded ships bound for elsewhere. The Inquisition gave the order to exterminate these people. The Grey Knights obliged.

The Space Wolves had their little freak out and defended some of these vessels. These vessels, carrying soldiers who were potentially tainted by Chaos, and also aware that the GK existed, were pursued to other worlds, where the Inquisition was then forced to enact Exterminatus.

TiamatRoar wrote:
This is true. It doesn't really apply to the Space Wolves, though, since the chapter doesn't do much that could be thought of as corrupted by Chaos (with the possible exception of the wulfen. I dunno if the Imperium knows the Wulfen curse is actually an ANTI-Chaos measure)

Couldn't be thought of as being corrupted by Chaos by who? The fans and GW? Or various Imperial organisations, some of who are already suspicious or hold vendettas against the Space Wolves? The Flame Falcons were also afflicted with a genetic mutation before the Inquisition caught wind... In any case I wasn't really concerned with the why the Wolves could be called out as traitors, more the point was to correct a very popular misconception about the Grey Knights.

 j31c3n wrote:
Grey Knights (geneseed tainted by the traitor legions)

Is this idea of traitor geneseed cocktail really still being perpetuated here? You do realise that this falsehood was created as a fanfiction alternative by those who can't stand the idea of what was written about it in the 5E Codex and that this concept has no grounding in the official fluff outside of some fairytale guesswork.

 Matt1785 wrote:

Also, I never heard the fluff on the Grey Knights being the ones that purge the traitor chapters... were they on the rosters for any of the 'Black Crusades'? They're the militant wing of the Ordo Malleus and considering that getting more then a hand full of them into any conflict is tough, I doubt they'd have the ability to destroy an entire traitor chapter. Or at least, if that was the case, they dropped the ball big time at Badab.

Much of the early fluff about the Grey Knights and their conflicts with other chapters comes from old Chapter Approved articles. IIRC, The Relictors article was published in WD 295. They have also partaken in the Black Crusades, most recently in the 13th to some success.

As for taskforce size, the Grey Knights indeed often work at squad level during short secondments where only a handful are needed to assist an Inquisitor in completing their mission. They also often deploy as larger task forces, most notably when their ranking officers are required to be involved. As a very pragmatic, reactive and flexible chapter, both types of levels of deployment are orchestrated when the need is required rather than remaining spread out continually, squad-by-squad as many players suspect.

 Psienesis wrote:

name one full chapter the SOB have wiped out...

Name a Chapter the Space Wolves have wiped out that wasn't The Thousand Sons.

Didn't the SW destroy one ore both of the "lost" chapters?

Jefffar wrote:
If the survivors of the First War for Armageddon were so tainted, why did the High Lords decide to let them live in the first place?

As a reward. The Wolves were right that the defenders served with courage, so rather than just killing them, the Inquisition thought to allow them to live out their lives on the planet they saved. Sure, they would be isolated and couldn't have children, but a steady job for the rest of your life is no worse (and in many cases better) than how most hivewolders live.

The Wolves decided its way better that they die unknowing and terrified, couped up in ship hulls, and take a few billion innocents with them.



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 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

name one full chapter the SOB have wiped out...

Name a Chapter the Space Wolves have wiped out that wasn't The Thousand Sons.

Didn't the SW destroy one ore both of the "lost" chapters?

The Space Wolves didn't even wipe out the Thousand Sons, considering how much help they had from Custodes and Sisters of Silence, and that 20% of the Legion survived.

The a Wolves were involved in one or both previous sanctions, but it is highly unlikely they did it all by their lonesome, they simply don't have the manpower. They probably had help from at least the Ultramarines (source: unremembered empire), hence all the rumors that the boys in blue absorbed the surviving legionnaires.

 Troike wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
What I mean is that, even if it's covered a lot, it's sadly not nearly enough,

True, true. SoB fluff hasn't had much major growth for a while. 3E? Shared with another faction. 5E? Small WD codex. 6E? Largely recycled. They're long due for some fleshing out.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Things like 3 orders attacking the Space Wolves for so long really deserves more than just a blurb, because it leaves open so many questions as to exactly what the hell everyone felt or thought about such things for one thing (like did all the other organizations really just sit by and watch? And why? Who agreed with such things? Does the entire sisterhood hold enmity over that or just a few? Is such an incident standard procedure par for the course or was it a huge deal? etc etc)

Yeah, I too would love to hear more details about this. It'd be quite the epic battle, and I imagine that the the politcal movements within the three factions involved would be interesting to see.

Though, to be fair, I imagine that there's other major events like this that've just gotten a blurb, so far, so this may just the way of things in 40K fluff, sometimes.

What kills me here is how everybody is treating like these events all happened over a decade, maybe two. No. These events happened over hundreds if not thousands of years apart. All of the interviening time spent fighting against the enemies of the IOM. Yeah, when Inquisitor whats his bucked was killed by Logan is probably sent ripples through most of the Inquisition. But 400 years later... who the hell cares. As Logan has proved himself a hero and leader time and time again. Heck the time line in the codex only covers 260 years. Logan is over 700 years old. The ecclesiarchy incident was over 100 years ago from the current time line. You really think 3 weeks of fighting means anything in the blink of a century or 600 years of past service.

As for the Ecclesiarchy entry, it really says nothing. Its only 5 sentences long. How do we know the following isn't what happened.

"Who gave the order to fire?" Logan asked as he sat around the guilded war table with his advisors.
"No one sir.", Sargent Jegger replies. "Brother Jurran fired of his own accord.
"I know of this lad.", Logan says scratching his beard. "He is head strong, but has potential. We will send him back to the ranks of the Bloodclaws until he can cool his head. What has been the response of the Ecclesiarchy?"
"They are refusing any communication.", Jeggar replied.
"I guess we will wait and see.", Logan says grinning. "I'm sure it will be interesting."

Advance a year.

"We have several ships on long range radar sir. They appear to be of Ecclesiarchy designation."
"Ahh the response.", Logan says grinning. "This was started by a mistake, but we can't just let this go away."
"What is your plan my lord.", Jegger asks.
"We hold. This is the Fang. We show them the foolishness of coming into our domain. We make them pay a yard for every inch they gain. This will be a defensive operation. We have no reason to go all offensive and escalate this engagement any further. Send a squadron of strike crusiers out past the outer rim and circle around delay any supplies they might have incoming. Make them have to do with what they brought with them." Eventually they will tire of this endevor. And if not, when I tire of this situation, then and only then will we unleash our full fury."
"What of a ground assault?", Jegger asks.
"Double up on the east, west, and south sides of the Fang. Leave the Northside somewhat vulnerable, but don't make it look like your leaving it vulnerable."
"Why the northern side?", Jegger asks.
"Reports have come in that a brood of Kracken have made a nest there.", Grimnar laughs. "No reason to expend man power when the wildlife will be more than enough." Let them learn first hand just what assaulting the Fang entails."

There is nothing in the codex that says it was a bloody back and forth affair. Its very reasonable to assume that the Sisters got to learn first hand how the Fang got its reputation, without the SW having to engage even a fraction of their forces for defense.