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 TheCustomLime wrote:
I dislike Space Wolves for one reason: Everything they are has the word "Except" in the description. Sure because calling things like a "Wolf Tooth Necklace" a "Necklace made out of wolves' teeth" is better. Or something like "Wolf Claws", "Space Wolf Pattern Lighting Claws" is so much better and easier to say. That is not to say Canis Wolfborn is not a stupid name. Just that most of the "Wolf" items can either be justified by the translation from Fenrisian to Gothic or literally it involves wolves. Remember the Space Wolves don't even call themselves "Space Wolves".

They have Librarians except they don't draw their powers from the warp. Except as far back as 2nd Ed the SWs have never had "Librarians". There is even fluff (Prospero Burns) that has a Rune Priest saying that Rune Priest are psykers. You are mistaking the difference between Rune Priest and Librarians to straw man in an argument involving not using the warp. Which from the SWs perspective is just not true

They are loyal Space Marines and faithful to the Emperor except they don't respect any Imperial authority. Except they respect/obey the Emperor.

They are wild, rebellious drunks except they are masterful tacticians too. What makes the two mutually exclusive??? I drink therefore I must also be dumb.

They wear wolf pelts, ride wolves and name every damned thing after the animal except there are none on Fenris. LOL, just lol.

Basically they turned something that was cool into a bunch of little snowflakes, even by Space Marine standards. They are ment to be "Almost" renegades that the Imperial powers that be are more happy to have as allies then enemies. That are also special little snowflakes in universe. Magnus says as much in Battle of the Fang.

Not to single you out. It is just that you listed many of the of the problems that people have with the Wolves that are either factually wrong or have a reason to be the way they are.

Ive always liked the spacewolves. There the barbarian class space marine. An ork. But human. Anyone who bucks the system and stands up for the little guy is a hero. Although I'll say that 30k SWs are very different from 30k SWs.

Rune Priests shape and draw energy from the warp. You can call that whatever you want but its psychic power. If Sanguinius had called his the Vampire Space Marine Wizard Cabal, or theKhan's psychers in his legion the Magic Horse Whisperers of the Most August Astartes Legion Number Eleventy-seven...THEYD STILL BE LIBRARIANS AKA PSYCHERS.

They present a different playstyle for marines, like the Salamanders but more HH.

I really do dislike the Thunder Wolf Cavalry. I love the idea of ICs getting wolf bodygaurds. I even like the packs of wolves. But space vikings riding wolves so the can get in to HH faster, in a game full of jet aircraft and laser cannons...too...much...

I liked there depiction in the HH books. Im gonna have to call Leman Russ a Brute though. Not a bad character, but definetly a thug.

I dislike them simply because Wolf Wolfenson of Wolftown riding his Wolflord from the Wolfplanet Wolf wielding the Wolfsword of Wolf Fury, hardened by Wolf battle with the alpha Wolf while wearing his Wolf armour blessed by the great Wolves of old Wolfkings and lucky Wolf necklace from Wolf teeth is all a bit too much for me.

I now also realise when you write Wolf a lot, you start to think that isn't the correct spelling.

 Red Marine wrote:
Rune Priests shape and draw energy from the warp. You can call that whatever you want but its psychic power. If Sanguinius had called his the Vampire Space Marine Wizard Cabal, or theKhan's psychers in his legion the Magic Horse Whisperers of the Most August Astartes Legion Number Eleventy-seven...THEYD STILL BE LIBRARIANS AKA PSYCHERS.

Context:

Death Watch Core rules page 184 wrote:Each Chapter selects its Librarians in its own way, either from
seed worlds, as it does with the bulk of its Battle-Brother
initiates, or from the ranks of gifted psykers brought to the
Scholastica Psykana. Most Chapters train and test chosen
psykers following the ancient ways laid out in the Codex
Astartes. Librarians of the Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark
Angels, and Storm Wardens are all trained in this way, and,
with few minor traditional variances, have been taught to live
by the word of the Codex. There are, however, a few notable
Chapters that do not follow the Codex Astartes and its laws
regarding the treatment and control of psykers.

Quote:

Same page just snipped wrote:There are few things that are ‘standard’ about the sons of
Leman Russ, and so it is no surprise that they treat their psykers
differently to the rest of the Adeptus Astartes. The Space
Wolves do not have Librarians or even a Librarium, scorning
such dusty and lifeless collections of knowledge. Instead they
adhere to the ancient Fenrisian traditions of their ancestors,
and those with psychic gifts become Rune Priests—skalds and
storytellers who keep the Chapter’s practices and history alive
through millennia-old oral tradition. While Rune Priests use
their own powers and train in their own way, they function in
much the same way as other Space Marine Librarians, tapping
into the Warp and drawing forth power to create effects and
shape reality.

This is not new fluff. It dates back to the first Spae Wolf codex. Rune Priest are psykers but they are not Librarians.

Sparkadia wrote:I dislike them simply because Wolf Wolfenson of Wolftown riding his Wolflord from the Wolfplanet Wolf wielding the Wolfsword of Wolf Fury, hardened by Wolf battle with the alpha Wolf while wearing his Wolf armour blessed by the great Wolves of old Wolfkings and lucky Wolf necklace from Wolf teeth is all a bit too much for me.

So and just to get this straight you dislike the Space Wolves because they have a single character that you believe has the word "Wolf" associated with to many times.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Because that is how authors write them. This is a phenomenon called "plot armor". They're actually one of the smallest chapters, holding only a single, feral planet in the galactic west. They're Vikings in Space. Which is... kind of silly, really, but also cool.

And that is plain nonsense. They are invariably described as one of the largest chapters. They do not stick to the '1000 marine limit'. Also, like almost all SM chapters, they have only a single homeworld (and it is a deathworld, not a feral world), but they are also mentioned as maintaining a protectorate of worlds loyal to the SW around Fenris (again, like most chapters do).

Citation needed.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I love them because of their epic beards. They are the only Space Marines manly enough to have hair. All other space marines are just bald, castrated pussies
Also they are Vikings. Vikings are cool. Everyone who does not think Vikings are cool deserves to be raped, pillaged and burned

Vikings are indeed cool, and as the poster above you so clearly elucidated, Space Wolves are not Vikings.

Bill's King's 40k Space Wolves aren't vikings. Dan Abnett and Chris Wraight's 30k Space Wolves are very much vikings. The latter are also not goofy, wolf-riding, drunken idiots.

Dan Abnett's Space Wolves are wet-leopard purring primitives who are extremely rude in their interactions with other Legions and Primarchs, staggeringly presumptuous in their role and level of authority, and completely in denial about being one of the most flawed and twisted of the Legions. They really aren't anything like Vikings. Sitting around in dark caves, playing strategy games with bones while huffing and leopard-purring and staring down mortals from the shadows is not what Vikings do. We do find out from Abnett, however, that their culture/religion (which the Space Wolves are still deeply immersed in) involves tribes led by shamans (e.i. psykers), who pointing and scream maleficarum (i.e. possibly psychic phenomena) at everything, prompting mass panics where people paint their faces red and start murdering children who happened to be in the vicinity of said phenomena, all the while claiming their own powers to be pure. It's like the Salem Witch Trials on crack, where instead of just killing the accused potential witch, they also murder anyone who ever came in contact with them.

Horus ordered him to do it? Valdor convinced him of Magnus' impiety? Really? Do we really need to make excuses for the, to quote Malcador, "quite a mess of things" Russ and his Wolves made of Prospero? They were just acting in their nature. A pompous, hypocrite of a psyk..er, runepriest witnessed the Thousand Sons using their vast powers in a controlled and methodical manner against a seemingly insurmountable foe (some ancient titan or some such), and immediately had the whole Vylka Fenrika jumping up and down and screaming maleficarum. Russ was ready to perform his executioner task on Shrike, well before any councils of Nikea. Only Lorgar's intervention stopped that battle. Russ is ALWAYS picking fights, whether it's the Emperor, the Lion, or Angron. Blind, wholesale violence towards anything that happens to spook them is the Wolves' basic cultural modus operandi.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, I like metal music, and Space Wolves are easily the most metal chapter (along with the Iron Hands, who I love for the same reason)

They might be the most folk/viking metal chapter, a form of Metal I do love, but they can't reach the Metal levels of Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Omegus wrote:

Dan Abnett's Space Wolves are wet-leopard purring primitives who are extremely rude in their interactions with other Legions and Primarchs, staggeringly presumptuous in their role and level of authority, and completely in denial about being one of the most flawed and twisted of the Legions. They really aren't anything like Vikings. Sitting around in dark caves, playing strategy games with bones while huffing and leopard-purring and staring down mortals from the shadows is not what Vikings do. We do find out from Abnett, however, that their culture/religion (which the Space Wolves are still deeply immersed in) involves tribes led by shamans (e.i. psykers), who pointing and scream maleficarum (i.e. possibly psychic phenomena) at everything, prompting mass panics where people paint their faces red and start murdering children who happened to be in the vicinity of said phenomena, all the while claiming their own powers to be pure. It's like the Salem Witch Trials on crack, where instead of just killing the accused potential witch, they also murder anyone who ever came in contact with them.

Horus ordered him to do it? Valdor convinced him of Magnus' impiety? Really? Do we really need to make excuses for the, to quote Malcador, "quite a mess of things" Russ and his Wolves made of Prospero? They were just acting in their nature. A pompous, hypocrite of a psyk..er, runepriest witnessed the Thousand Sons using their vast powers in a controlled and methodical manner against a seemingly insurmountable foe (some ancient titan or some such), and immediately had the whole Vylka Fenrika jumping up and down and screaming maleficarum. Russ was ready to perform his executioner task on Shrike, well before any councils of Nikea. Only Lorgar's intervention stopped that battle. Russ is ALWAYS picking fights, whether it's the Emperor, the Lion, or Angron. Blind, wholesale violence towards anything that happens to spook them is the Wolves' basic cultural modus operandi.

That's why I like Abnett's Space Wolves though.

"While Rune Priests use
their own powers and train in their own way, they function in
much the same way as other Space Marine Librarians, tapping
into the Warp and drawing forth power to create effects and
shape reality."

'nuff said.

Some disregard that quote due to being FFG, rather than GW.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I dislike Space Wolves for one reason: Everything they are has the word "Except" in the description. Sure because calling things like a "Wolf Tooth Necklace" a "Necklace made out of wolves' teeth" is better. Or something like "Wolf Claws", "Space Wolf Pattern Lighting Claws" is so much better and easier to say. That is not to say Canis Wolfborn is not a stupid name. Just that most of the "Wolf" items can either be justified by the translation from Fenrisian to Gothic or literally it involves wolves. Remember the Space Wolves don't even call themselves "Space Wolves".

They have Librarians except they don't draw their powers from the warp. Except as far back as 2nd Ed the SWs have never had "Librarians". There is even fluff (Prospero Burns) that has a Rune Priest saying that Rune Priest are psykers. You are mistaking the difference between Rune Priest and Librarians to straw man in an argument involving not using the warp. Which from the SWs perspective is just not true

They are loyal Space Marines and faithful to the Emperor except they don't respect any Imperial authority. Except they respect/obey the Emperor.

They are wild, rebellious drunks except they are masterful tacticians too. What makes the two mutually exclusive??? I drink therefore I must also be dumb.

They wear wolf pelts, ride wolves and name every damned thing after the animal except there are none on Fenris. LOL, just lol.

Basically they turned something that was cool into a bunch of little snowflakes, even by Space Marine standards. They are ment to be "Almost" renegades that the Imperial powers that be are more happy to have as allies then enemies. That are also special little snowflakes in universe. Magnus says as much in Battle of the Fang.

Not to single you out. It is just that you listed many of the of the problems that people have with the Wolves that are either factually wrong or have a reason to be the way they are.

Literally nothing you said in reply to any of his arguments make me reconsider my opinion. Just because you answered him with red text doesn't make you automatically correct. I don't see how they are factually wrong or have a reason at all.

-The point is, it shouldn't have to be special "wolf pattern lightning claws". Why can't they just have regular lightning claws like other marines? Because they are Space Wolves. That seems to be the only thing that I can think of. I'm fine with individualized weapons and units unique to them. I play Dark Angels, but not every unit in the codex or every piece of wargear says "Dark" or "Angel" in it. Yet they have different stuff in there that no one else gets. It can be done.

-You completely avoided his point about librarians. OK. Fine they aren't librarians. But that's not the point at all. They are still psykers and that's what he was saying. They are exactly like librarians in everything but name, but refuse to acknowledge where they get their power from.

-The Emperor is dead and has been for a long time. But there are examples where they have NOT respected Imperial Authority. You can be loyal to your country until the end, but the act of loyalty to the highest power does not exclude you from answering to those put in place to represent that higher authority. Example. You can't break the law and resist arrest from the police and look to get away with it by yelling that you still bow to the English Throne. You're still responsible for your actions and should be punished accordingly.

-I get your point on this one. I drink, and I'm not dumb. But pretty much everything in 40k is meant to be polarized in one direction or the other. You have berzerkers and you have tacticians. Generally you don't get both without some sort of special treatment, which many don't believe is fair for the Wolves to have.

-I don't see what you were doing here to be honest. Were you just unable to come up with an answer to this one? Because responding LOL won't make the thought go away, and it's a point that bothers many a person.

-I get what they were meant to be, but the problem is they take everything (sarcasm, clearly I don't mean everything) everyone else has cool and gives it to them. Just re branding it as something "wolf".

In short, cool concept done poorly. Be special. I think it's cool they are special. Just don't be so wolfy about it and get rid of all the contradictions.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Some disregard that quote due to being FFG, rather than GW.

OK, how about this.

Space Wolf codex 2nd ED wrote:Page 49:
Where other chaptes have psychic Librarians the Space Wolves have Rune priest.

Page 14:
The Rune Priest are the strangest of all priest of the Space Wolves. Like the Librarians of other chapters they have powerful psychic abilities, but unlike Librarians their powers are based upon the shamanistic rune magic of the natives of Fenris.

Like I said it is not new fluff. Yes they are psykers, no they are not Librarians.

@Ignatius, I'll go threw each point in order:

1. Do you also dislike every piece of wargear that includes the Forge World where its built. Like a Mars pattern lasgun for example. Because if not then this is really just a superficial complaint. However if you don't like it because the SWs got a special lightning claw. Then it is kind of a ridiculousness complaint. Remember that every time you see terminators teleport.

2. The Rune Priest themselves know that they are psyker and no different then any other psyker. Helwinter, says as much in Prospero Burns. So where does the idea that they don't know they are using the warp come from??? The only thing that has come up is that they use psykers after the Emperor banned Librarians. Since they are not Librarians why would the ban affect them (this is debatable)??? This has lead the factually wrong idea that the Rune priest either don't know they are psykers or don't know their power comes from the warp. Both of which have have no fluff basis. That is even considering Redknife's lies to Guard Commander in Fear to Tread.

3. This is a jurisdictional/might makes right thing. "You can't break the law and resist arrest from the police and look to get away with it by yelling that you still bow to the English Throne". Unless when the police come to arrest you. You plainly outgun them. Then when the police go to get more backup that back up says "I would rather keep you happy" rather then support the police. Making the police effectively powerless to arrest you. This is what we have with the Spaces Wolves. Yes there are Imperial forces that would love to destroy them. but in general cannot get enough support to finish the job. So they are powerless to enact the punishment they feel the Wolves deserve. This has more to do with how the IoM works then the SWs. Then add in the fact that the Wolves are largely self sufficent and an outside force has very little options as a means to punish them.

4. If you read the HH series then you know that the Wolves have repeatly said that they are not "Berzerkers" even if they appear that way to outside spectators. The Wolves are tacticians who hide this behind a berzerker's image. It really is no different then how the Iron Warriors are masters of siege but fight as savagely as World Eaters once they breach the walls.

5. If you read the section in A Thousand Sons where Magnus addresses this. The Fenris Wolves are not wolves (Canis Lupus) but genetically different. The what they actually are is left a mystery. But I truely find it funny that someone can look at a wolf the size of a rhinoceros and think "Hey that is not a wolf native to terra. How dare the Space Wolves have all this wolf iconagraphy based on wolves when they are not genetically wolves in the first place". It would be the same to me as someone saying "I hate the Dark Angels because they are supposed to be "Dark" but the Deathwing paints their armor off white. That is not "Dark!".

6. The rebranding I can handle because most of it likely comes from the translation from a fenrisian diolect to imperial gothic. As far as taking what others have that's "Cool". The Wolves were one of the first fleshed out chapters. So I don't really understand this point of view because the new stuff is either a continuation or expansion on the old fluff.

Thats not to say that things about the SWs that I don't like. It is just that when look at them as a whole. Their likable aspects far out weigh their unlikable aspects.

2. The Rune Priest themselves know that they are psyker and no different then any other psyker. Helwinter, says as much in Prospero Burns. So where does the idea that they don't know they are using the warp come from??? The only thing that has come up is that they use psykers after the Emperor banned Librarians. Since they are not Librarians why would the ban affect them (this is debatable)??? This has lead the factually wrong idea that the Rune priest either don't know they are psykers or don't know their power comes from the warp. Both of which have have no fluff basis. That is even considering Redknife's lies to Guard Commander in Fear to Tread.

As was pointed out in the quote you're attempting to refute, Rune Priests do not believe that they are like any other psyker. They believe that they draw upon some kind of ancient druid magic. In 2E, they even carried staves that were made of oak "from when that tree still grew upon Holy Terra." This is why they are hypocrites.

I see now I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should never have permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

Forgive me but this seems to be pretty exact in the Emperor intended to ban ALL psykers in Space Marine armies and heavily restrict psykers in general. The final part is the most important aspect.

 Stonerhino wrote:
If you read the HH series then you know that the Wolves have repeatly said that they are not "Berzerkers" even if they appear that way to outside spectators. The Wolves are tacticians who hide this behind a berzerker's image. It really is no different then how the Iron Warriors are masters of siege but fight as savagely as World Eaters once they breach the walls.

Except we have other fluff that rather neatly contradicts this, not the least of which is the codex fluff (or really all other SW fluff), where they do pants-on-head-slowed stuff like fire artillery by smell then rush forward to watch the explosions (putting their fire-support platform at risk and abandoning their position), or crash thunderhawks for giggles. This is trying to have the proverbial cake and eating it too which contributes so much to the awful hipster-esque contradictions in their fluff.

Or it could be that in ten thousand years the Space Wolves underwent a change in methods and persona without their Primarch to guide them.

Calm down Vaktathi.

As its been stated, 31st wolves are very different than 41st wolves. The whole Librarian =\= Rune Priest =\= psycher or does it arguement is no longer an issue in the 41st.

However if someone still feels that they are one in the same, there is no helping it. Its possible to like one or the other or even both, its possible to hate one or the other or both. But to constantly say they are the same and have the same issues and outlooks and attitudes is totally wrong.

I stated this in another thread, but I thought it was obvious that 31st and 41st millennium wolves are supposed to be different. It's a narrative tool to show just how much things changed since the Great Crusade as well as say "Surprise!" to the fanbase. "Not as you knew them" is the tvtrope term for it, I believe. I wish people would stop lumping the two together.

Anyways, my own personal opinion is that some things about the wolves are a bit overdone (Canis Wolfborn, for example), but overall if they weren't so crazy ridiculous, they wouldn't be space wolves anymore.

Unlike others, I still think it's logical enough that they're not declared heretics, but I tend to give the fictional people in Warhammer 40k (both chaos and Imperial) more credit to their intelligence and common sense than most people, I suppose (in this case, the wolves have MILLENIA of loyal service to an organization that has more than enough enemies already. What right does a 50 year old priest have to call a man a heretic that has been fighting and serving the Imperium saving entire worlds of people since that priest's great great great great grandfather was just a baby?).

Unlike others, I still think it's logical enough that they're not declared heretics, but I tend to give the fictional people in Warhammer 40k (both chaos and Imperial) more credit to their intelligence and common sense than most people, I suppose (in this case, the wolves have MILLENIA of loyal service to an organization that has more than enough enemies already. What right does a 50 year old priest have to call a man a heretic that has been fighting and serving the Imperium saving entire worlds of people since that priest's great great great great grandfather was just a baby?).

It's kinda funny when you point out loyal service, considering how many Huron Blackheart gained to his side.

Also some of those priests are far older then that, usually they frequently hit 150+ due to treatments.

Unlike others, I still think it's logical enough that they're not declared heretics, but I tend to give the fictional people in Warhammer 40k (both chaos and Imperial) more credit to their intelligence and common sense than most people, I suppose (in this case, the wolves have MILLENIA of loyal service to an organization that has more than enough enemies already. What right does a 50 year old priest have to call a man a heretic that has been fighting and serving the Imperium saving entire worlds of people since that priest's great great great great grandfather was just a baby?).

Within the past 2,000 years, the Space Wolves have caused the destruction of several Imperial Worlds and have not answered to charges of pagan worship being practiced by the natives of their homeworld.

What are the Wolves hiding?

What they have done historically is irrelevant, as the Imperium very strongly believes that one act of heresy can undo an entire lifetime of loyal service... and, also, that "a moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy".

Space Wolves are cool because they aren't donkey-caves to non-Space Marines.

Space Wolves are ridiculous because of the Wolf-Tailed Wolf Fanged Puppy Wolf of the Lonesome Wolffun Wolftime.

 Melissia wrote:
Space Wolves are cool because they aren't donkey-caves to non-Space Marines.

The Inquisition and Sisters of Battle may disagree with that assessment.

Also, neither are the Ultramarines or the Salamanders. Or the Raven Guard, IIRC.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Space Wolves are cool because they aren't donkey-caves to non-Space Marines.

The Inquisition and Sisters of Battle may disagree with that assessment.

Also, neither are the Ultramarines or the Salamanders. Or the Raven Guard, IIRC.

Ultramarines are even better to the citizens then the Space Wolves on a constant basis, and the Salamanders are much nicer in general more pleasant to talk to and generally don't try to seduce your women in silly ways while boasting about their deeds they accomplished years ago while drunk, in the snow, and having lost the use of an eye for that time because he lost in a fight to a wolf-brother.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I dislike Space Wolves for one reason: Everything they are has the word "Except" in the description.

They have Librarians except they don't draw their powers from the warp.

They are loyal Space Marines and faithful to the Emperor except they don't respect any Imperial authority.

They are wild, rebellious drunks except they are masterful tacticians too.

They wear wolf pelts, ride wolves and name every damned thing after the animal except there are none on Fenris.

Basically they turned something that was cool into a bunch of little snowflakes, even by Space Marine standards.

Not sure what codex you read, but there are wolves on fenris lol.

I don't like the SW (for some reason that I can't put my finger on)

But I have to show Leman Russ respect. He saw a piece of farming equipment, paused to stroke his beard for a moment and said "weaponize it"

Well..... not exactly.

When the Leman Russ tank was named, Leman Russ was an IG General. This is RT-era stuff.

Now that Russ is a Primarch, I think it's just named after him.

I think we've now completely answered the original question.

zbg97 wrote:
I think we've now completely answered the original question.

Pretty much SW for life lol.

 Psienesis wrote:

2. The Rune Priest themselves know that they are psyker and no different then any other psyker. Helwinter, says as much in Prospero Burns. So where does the idea that they don't know they are using the warp come from??? The only thing that has come up is that they use psykers after the Emperor banned Librarians. Since they are not Librarians why would the ban affect them (this is debatable)??? This has lead the factually wrong idea that the Rune priest either don't know they are psykers or don't know their power comes from the warp. Both of which have have no fluff basis. That is even considering Redknife's lies to Guard Commander in Fear to Tread.

As was pointed out in the quote you're attempting to refute, Rune Priests do not believe that they are like any other psyker. They believe that they draw upon some kind of ancient druid magic. In 2E, they even carried staves that were made of oak "from when that tree still grew upon Holy Terra." This is why they are hypocrites.

Prospero Burns wrote:‘You come from a society that accepts and uses psykers, skjald. On Old Terra, they walked amongst you on a daily basis. Did you recognise them all? On Fenris, could you tell a ranting shaman from a man who truly has the sight?’
Hawser tightened his lips. He had no answer. Helwintr leaned closer, and stared down into Hawser’s eyes.
‘The truth of it all is that your colleague probably wasn’t a psyker. He had found a crude shortcut to something else. And that is the point. That is the lesson. Psyker ability is not a thing of itself. It allows us to draw on a greater power. It is just another path to that same something else. The best path. The safest path. Even then, it’s not without its pitfalls. If you’d care to, you may define maleficarum as any sorcery that is not performed under the most stringent application of psyker control.’

The method the Rune priest use are different from other psykers but that does not mean it is a different power. The difference is control and they believe their method offers the best control. Even in A Thousand Sons when Ahriman and Wyrdmake fight in the warp. Wyrdmake stands by the differences between "The natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris" (druid magic) and Ahriman's sorcery.

Believing that uncontrolled use of sorcery and "Stringently controlled" psychic powers is different is not hypocritical. To me it would be like me saying that a drink or two with dinner and driving is fine. But driving after drinking a 5th of rum is not. Then you calling me a hypocite because they are both drinking and driving and thus the same thing. Just because there are laws that ban you from driving drunk. Does not mean that you cannot drive under the legal limit.

Personally I love the Space wolves. I find their colorfulness and individuality a bright light in what can be a tedious nihilistic arm of the IoM. Yes William Kings novels are cheeesy and at some points plain stupid. Dan Abnett has gone completely the opposite way (which I loved) to perhaps offer a balanced view. I know the space wolves I have in my head when I play are a mixture of the two although it does favour the 30K wolves.

The lore of them fighting the grey knights and the inquisition stands up for me. As they initially used their ships to shield their charges from inquisition ships, sustaining damage without returning fire. It was an inquisitor and a cowardly Grey night commander that murdered during a parlay. Which space marine chapter wouldn't have matched the escalation at such an act. (I can't think of a single loyalist chapter that would have turned the other cheek) Yes the Space wolves are belligerent, yes they are arrogant and yes the way they interact with the IoM is completely skewed but they are one of the most ferocious defenders of the Imperuim. I think it is also important to note that although they have fought conflicts with individuals of the inquisition and the ecclesiarchy. They have always had the backing of Terra which is why there has never been a concerted effort to have them condemned as traitors and destroyed. There goes my somewhat biased defense of some of the lore that I love and people have picked on :(

IMO and without meaning to come across as an obnoxious bell end. I think the marmite effect of the space wolves judging from a lot of the proceeding posts is more down to personality types. I think people who are very systematic and logical will always have a problem with the Canon conflicts. It's a burr that will never ease while they gaze at Fenris. Whereas the people of the rout, Well ! We love the stories and legends our skalds tell. Unless its a battle, we'll leave the details for the other chapters to fuss over.

 Stonerhino wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

2. The Rune Priest themselves know that they are psyker and no different then any other psyker. Helwinter, says as much in Prospero Burns. So where does the idea that they don't know they are using the warp come from??? The only thing that has come up is that they use psykers after the Emperor banned Librarians. Since they are not Librarians why would the ban affect them (this is debatable)??? This has lead the factually wrong idea that the Rune priest either don't know they are psykers or don't know their power comes from the warp. Both of which have have no fluff basis. That is even considering Redknife's lies to Guard Commander in Fear to Tread.

As was pointed out in the quote you're attempting to refute, Rune Priests do not believe that they are like any other psyker. They believe that they draw upon some kind of ancient druid magic. In 2E, they even carried staves that were made of oak "from when that tree still grew upon Holy Terra." This is why they are hypocrites.

Prospero Burns wrote:‘You come from a society that accepts and uses psykers, skjald. On Old Terra, they walked amongst you on a daily basis. Did you recognise them all? On Fenris, could you tell a ranting shaman from a man who truly has the sight?’
Hawser tightened his lips. He had no answer. Helwintr leaned closer, and stared down into Hawser’s eyes.
‘The truth of it all is that your colleague probably wasn’t a psyker. He had found a crude shortcut to something else. And that is the point. That is the lesson. Psyker ability is not a thing of itself. It allows us to draw on a greater power. It is just another path to that same something else. The best path. The safest path. Even then, it’s not without its pitfalls. If you’d care to, you may define maleficarum as any sorcery that is not performed under the most stringent application of psyker control.’

The method the Rune priest use are different from other psykers but that does not mean it is a different power. The difference is control and they believe their method offers the best control. Even in A Thousand Sons when Ahriman and Wyrdmake fight in the warp. Wyrdmake stands by the differences between "The natural cycle of birth and death of Fenris" (druid magic) and Ahriman's sorcery.

Believing that uncontrolled use of sorcery and "Stringently controlled" psychic powers is different is not hypocritical. To me it would be like me saying that a drink or two with dinner and driving is fine. But driving after drinking a 5th of rum is not. Then you calling me a hypocite because they are both drinking and driving and thus the same thing. Just because there are laws that ban you from driving drunk. Does not mean that you cannot drive under the legal limit.

A quote from a guy in a BL novel (who can be wrong,or rendered so in the next book, or the next page) does not refute a statement from an out-of-character narrator in a Codex. We are told that the methods by which Rune Priests operate "are based upon the native Fenrisian's own shamanistic practices" (so not something the Emperor set down for them) and that they "carve runes upon the teeth of totem animals such as the sea beasts. The most powerful [runes] of all are carved upon the fangs of the Wolves of Fenris." C:SW then goes on to describe the runes carved into armor, the sacred oaken staves they carry ("raised in the soil of ancient Earth when trees still grew wild upon that planet") and how venerable Rune Priests live on in these sticks after they die. Perhaps most damningly, we are told that "these secrets are passed down from Rune Priest to Rune Priest,each generation teaching the young Skalds the complex and archaic incantations of runic lore".