What is a proxy?

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**Chaos Rule**

Please vote on what your opinions are on the definition of a proxy. If you wish to add a different definition then please post it below.

**insaniak**

Both. A proxy is a model used instead of the model that is supposed to be used.

If there is no official model, than anything that you use can only be a proxy...

**BarBoBot**

Are you still trying to stop your friend from using cadian guardsman as Elysian guardsman while at the same time you can usin cadian guardsman as zombies?

**Von Chogg**

Dude, give it a rest! It's a friendly game. Why don't you want him to use Elysians so badly? Is it really worth ALL this hassle not to fight them? From what I gather from your other thread, most people are against your argument, and frankly I also find it incredibly hypocritical.

Grow up and play the game for what it is; plastic soldiers shooting other plastic soldiers.

Von Chogg

**BarBoBot**

I think you would be hard pressed to find a single person in that other thread that agreed with the OP.

You would think that would have answered this question already.

**liturgies of blood**

Also, the dictionary definition of proxy should be more than enough to answer this question. What you've also seemed to miss in this entire thing is gradation.

**Jimsolo**

When I think of 'proxy' I think of using one thing to represent something it CLEARLY is not.

Examples:

Spoiler:

Generally, I'm okay with it if someone is testing a new army/unit before buying, or I've asked to play a larger point game than they can field with the army they prefer. In competitive play, this sort of proxying is not acceptable.

If someone is using something that is reasonably close, then I am much less concerned. So long as it's reasonable, I see no reason not to allow it in competitive play.

Examples:

Spoiler:

Since this seems to relate to using guardsmen as zombies, or regular guardsmen as Elysians, I don't see a problem with either. Both seem completely reasonable to me.

**Bausk**

Generally I draw a difference between a true proxy and a counts as. A true proxy is blatantly not what you're fielding it as where as a counts as is a close match like a kneeling cadian model with a sniper rifle rather than a ratling. If it fits the unit/models size and wargear then I have no problems with it, if its not even close then its clearly a proxy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I didn't vote as the optuons are to narrow minded and equate to almost the same thing so it seems like conformation bias either way you vote.

**TheCustomLime**

My definition of a proxy is a model being used to represent something it obviously isn't like using a Tac squad to represent Guardsmen or something. That's okay for a little bit but you should get the official models. Counts as is a-okay in my book as long as the model looks close. Including using Cadians as Elysians since they are both just a dude with a Lasgun, flak armor and grenades. It's like saying you can't use the Ultramarines chapter tactics with a army painted like Salamanders or using Dark angel models with C:SM. Red marines are the same as blue marines and one brand of guardsmen is te same as another.

**Lobokai**

I'll leave these classic bits here

**oraj**

To be honest, I just wouldn't play with you and be done with it. I can't understand why it matters this much.

**Peregrine**

oraj wrote:
To be honest, I just wouldn't play with you and be done with it. I can't understand why it matters this much.

This. OP, there are two problems with proxying: it makes it unclear what a unit is since it is no longer WYSIWYG, and it damages the fluff of the game when you have random stuff pretending to be different stuff. You, on the other hand, seem to think that accusing your opponent of proxying is a good strategy to make important parts of their army illegal and give you a better chance of winning. And that is the kind of behavior that makes people decide you're not worth playing against.

**PrinceRaven**

If a model clearly is not actually the thing you're playing it as, because it is a beer can or because the model already has rules in 40k, it's a proxy.
If a model could potentially be the thing you're playing it as it's counts-as.
Examples: "This guy holding a red bolter actually has a meltagun" - proxy
"This third party guy holding the weird steampunk thing has a meltagun" - counts-as

"I'm playing Blood Angels counts-as White Scars" - proxy
"I'm playing my converted Hello Kitty marines as White Scars" - counts-as

**Chaos Rule**

This is not a continuation on my previous thread, and for the thrid time we have resolved it. The itention of this thread is simply to define proxying as a wargaming community

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it is meant to say using a unit with no offical model not using a unit with no unofficial model.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PrinceRaven wrote:
If a model clearly is not actually the thing you're playing it as, because it is a beer can or because the model already has rules in 40k, it's a proxy.
If a model could potentially be the thing you're playing it as it's counts-as.
Examples: "This guy holding a red bolter actually has a meltagun" - proxy
"This third party guy holding the weird steampunk thing has a meltagun" - counts-as

"I'm playing Blood Angels counts-as White Scars" - proxy
"I'm playing my converted Hello Kitty marines as White Scars" - counts-as

So are you saying that it is only proxying if it is unclear as to what the model represents?

**oraj**

For me proxying is using a model for something that was not intended to be used as by GW. This can be proxying cadians as zombies or proxying as orcs or elysian drop troops. GW simply does not produce every unit that has a rule. It is totally fine if you decide to buy space marine looking models from another producer and use them as long as there's mutual understanding and respect. You define proxying with your opponents. Its definition can be different every game. Some person doesn't let you use your awesome looking zombies converted from cadians? You don't have to play with them. But at the end of the day what matters is that you have a good time.

**PrinceRaven**

Chaos Rule wrote:
So are you saying that it is only proxying if it is unclear as to what the model represents?

Essentially yes, though I'd still consider a beer can with "Carnifex" written on it in big letters a proxy.

**FlingitNow**

This is just sad now. I feel for anyone with this guy in their gaming group.

**Farseer Faenyin**

Yikes. So if I like the aesthetics of the Cadians(which I do), I can't take them with the rules for other Guard companies with more specific rulings?

I'm SO glad I have non-TFG players in my gaming group. :-)

**PrinceRaven**

Who said anything about not allowing proxies?

**BarBoBot**

It's from the previous thread this guy started.

Him and his friend agreed to a "no proxy" game.

Hi friend was playing elysian guard, but wanted to use his cadian guard models. The OP said they were proxy so couldn't be used, but the cadians that the OP was using as zombies somehow were not proxy. Complete hypocrite.

**PrinceRaven**

Well, were the Elysian Cadians converted in any way? Were the Cadian zombies? Context is important.

**BarBoBot**

What conversion work would you require to use an imperial guardsman as a different imperial guardsman?

Would you tell a space marine player with blue paint on his marines that he couldn't play them as dark angels while at the same time you want to use your blue painted marines as some successor chapter? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

**Tigurius**

A proxy?

Short hand for a prostitute, but with a bit of a typo.

**Ashiraya**

Peregrine wrote:
oraj wrote:
To be honest, I just wouldn't play with you and be done with it. I can't understand why it matters this much.

This. OP, there are two problems with proxying: it makes it unclear what a unit is since it is no longer WYSIWYG, and it damages the fluff of the game when you have random stuff pretending to be different stuff. You, on the other hand, seem to think that accusing your opponent of proxying is a good strategy to make important parts of their army illegal and give you a better chance of winning. And that is the kind of behavior that makes people decide you're not worth playing against.

So, you would not allow, for example, a converted staff-wielding Sorcerer model as an Ahriman?

**Elric Greywolf**

I didn't vote, because I was confused by the second choice, "using a unit with no unofficial model."
Is there any unit that HAS an "unofficial" model? Aren't all models made by GW "official"?
Also, what happens if I use a few GW models in the unit, and a few non-GW models in the unit? Is my unit official or unofficial?

**maciek**

I believe, model is WYSIWYG when it can easily be said "what unit does it represent", especially if it's correct size and has correct wargear. Even if it's a crazy conversion that looks differently than GW original. Even if it's a non-GW model.

Everything else is a proxy.
==

Human model wearing carapace armour and wielding a weapon that looks like a Pulse Rifle representing Fire Warrior? That's OK. That's WYSIWYG. That's not a proxy. That fits Tau fluff well (as they do employ Gue'vasa). That's OK even if said model isn't manufactured by GW.

Devilfish model representing Hammerhead Gunship? Obnoxious proxy.

**PrinceRaven**

BarBoBot wrote:
What conversion work would you require to use an imperial guardsman as a different imperial guardsman?

None, I'll play against people using anything. As far as what conversion does it need to have for me to call it counts-as instead of a proxy? Enough of a conversion that when they point to one squad and say "this is a platoon squad" and then point at another squad and say "these are Elysians" I can easily distinguish between them.

Would you tell a space marine player with blue paint on his marines that he couldn't play them as dark angels while at the same time you want to use your blue painted marines as some successor chapter? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

No, I wouldn't.

**rothrich**

Proxies are a tough question. I for example pay death skulls orks. So my trucks are converted rhinos my buggies are made from a land speeder and a pirahna I have a russ chassis with a battle wagon turret for my looted wagon and I use hammer head ion cannons on wheels for my big guns which I always play as kannons. Then again the people I play with are cool with it so it is ok. Zombies may not have an official model. However at games day I played with zombies unabashed using cadians catachans and the vampire counts models in the conversion they looked superb. So in effect zombies do have a model and if and when I start my chaos force that is how I plan on making mine.

**DJGietzen**

I voted both, but the question does not make any sense, lots of models have no unofficial version. I'm sure you meant no official version. But its a complicated question, I have been pushing my gaming group to adopt these 6 definitions to keep every one on the same page.

A model that is meant to represent something else that does not have an official model is a proxy.

A model that is meant to represent something else that does have an official model is a proxy.

A model that is not meant to represent something else that does not have an official model is a conversion.

A model that is not meant to represent something else that does have an official model is a 'counts as' model.

A model that is meant to represent something for which you are using it and that was constructed with any deviation from the instructions is a 'modified' model.

A model that is meant to represent something for which you are using it and that was constructed without any deviation from the instructions is a 'proper' model.

Some of the simplest conversion and 'counts as' models are kitbashed. As long as they have proper weapons and equipment and are distinguishable from the units they are kit-bashed from you should be ok.

In the other thread, cadian guardsmen being used as anything but cadian guardsmen would be a proxy unless they were modified in some way to accurately represent something else and be distinguishable from other cadian guardsmen. In the case of elysian drop troops this could be as simple as a paint job becouse from that point forward its clear they were meant to represnt elysian drop troops and not cadian guardsmen. To use cadian guarsmen as cultists they would need more invasive modifications because cultists do not have armor.

**zellway**

Lobukia wrote:
I'll leave these classic bits here

This is what I was thinking!