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if i remember the wolves and the sisters had a battle in one of the black library books

who won that battle, i heard the sisters had the upper hand, thats impressive against astartes

LightKing wrote:
if i remember the wolves and the sisters had a battle in one of the black library books

who won that battle, i heard the sisters had the upper hand, thats impressive against astartes

Do you know the name of that book? For one I'd love to read it, and on the other hand I can't find any listing of it on Lexicanum. The book "Blood of Asaheim" sounds kinda close as the Sisters of Battle and the Space Wolves are very iffy about working together, but seeing as they're fighting Plague Marines at that time, I doubt it came to blows.
The nearest cannonical event that matches what your describing is when the Ecclesiarchy sent a fleet to check Fenris after reports of pagan worship. The fleet is turned away by the Space Wolves via some warning shots. Three Orders of the Adepta Sororitas (though their exact numbers are unlisted) try to land on Fenris by force, but after three weeks the Ecclesiarchy calls it off. In this case (and this is pure conjecture), I suspect that the Space Wolves didn't bring their full force to bear, knowing that the Ecclesiarchy would crucify them if they suffered too many casualties. As this takes place after the first war on Armageddon, the Ordo Malleus would no doubt help. But the Ecclesiarchy didn't want to push it either, knowing that 1) The Space Wolves are a fairly massive "chapter" given that they don't follow Codex size restrictions and have no successor chapters to funnel gene-seed or wargear into. And 2) if the Space Wolves will pick a fight with the Ordo Malleus, they won't even hesitate to torch some mouthy priests who don't know when to hop along.

Right, the closest thing I know of to a direct fight between Sororitas and Space Wolves is when the Sisters went after the Fang. It was more or less a stalemate, which can also be interpreted to be a pretty impressive showing for the Sisters given that the Fang is one of the most well-defended fortifications in the Imperium, and they fought it to an effective draw.

Sisters never win battles, even in their own books their best case scenario is a martyr's death.

 curran12 wrote:
Right, the closest thing I know of to a direct fight between Sororitas and Space Wolves is when the Sisters went after the Fang. It was more or less a stalemate, which can also be interpreted to be a pretty impressive showing for the Sisters given that the Fang is one of the most well-defended fortifications in the Imperium, and they fought it to an effective draw.

Actually, as the invader, you never pull out if your winning otherwise showing up in the first place would be pointless. Its my interpretation that the sisters were losing much more than they were winning with just the three orders that showed up. The conflict only lasted three weeks which is nothing considering the time frame that can usually be associated with a siege. So that tells me that the sisters figured out rather quickly that to make any dent against the Fang it would require a much more concentrated effort than they were willing to commit to. So they cut their losses and pulled out.

Its clear that the Fang would not be taken by such a small force, if you could even call three full orders a small force.

You can interpret. Keep in mind a siege can be going successfully but not be considered worth it. The Ecclesiary is.... odd and even if SoB are winning, the time, expenses, and etc can be considered not worth continuing.

Then why go in the first place? Or are the higher ups of the sisters so stupid as to waste resources in like that. You never turn back if your winning. Because then all you do is empower your enemy and show yourselves to be cowards.

I also don't think that the self imposed pride of the Ordos would allow them to just pull out just because. They went there originally with nothing more than "high and mighty" intentions. But when they come back in force, you really think "high and mighty" would just turn back if they are winning.

No, they had to be losing and someone high up did some back peddeling after getting initial reports of what they really were up against.

how can sisters compete with astartes, and space wolves in perticular


see the fluff is so messed up sometimes not consistent

 Jayden63 wrote:
Then why go in the first place? Or are the higher ups of the sisters so stupid as to waste resources in like that. ...

I also don't think that the self imposed pride of the Ordos would allow them to just pull out just because. They went there originally with nothing more than "high and mighty" intentions. But when they come back in force, you really think "high and mighty" would just turn back if they are winning.

No, they had to be losing and someone high up did some back peddeling after getting initial reports of what they really were up against.

Not necessarily. You're underestimating how messed up Imperial bureaucracy is . Out of touch bureaucrats give orders that make no sense all the time. Remember that IG company that got massacred, were falsely reported as alive, then sentenced to death for going AWOL? And SoBs are some of the most obedient of the Emprah's lapdogs. If they're given an order from someone with enough shiny eagle medallions, they're going to follow it, unless someone with even MORE shiny eagle medallions points at the first guy and yells, "HERETIC!" My guess as that the siege was called, was going better than expected (and remember, the IoM's definition of success doesn't really put much weight on casualties), then someone higher up the chain of command either found out about it for the first time, or realized, "Oh snap! We're about to push one of the largest and most prominent astartes chapters into turning renegade! " Maybe some of the other astartes chapters even threatened to intervene on the SWs' behalf. It's happened before. So they realize it's not worth it, the siege is called off, and some poor sap takes the fall for it and is executed. The end.

As for all the people saying, "Sistahs could never beat 'rines cuz they suk!", you're forgetting about the glory days before the Wardtard. Remember what happened to the Rainbow Warriors!

I don't think they intended to fight their way planetside to be honest. The 3 orders were there to provide enough muscle to scare the space wolves into submitting to the investigation (which was likely intended to find the proof needed to declare the wolves heretics, if it existed or not).

The wolves don't back down for anyone less than the emperor himself so they decided to have a go at it and, after a few weeks the Ecclesiarchy had enough and pulled back.

I suspect behind the scenes the Ecclesiarchy was getting pressure from the High Lords or some of the major Astartes chapters about there being more important things to do than pick fights with one of the chapters most loyal to the Emperor.

when an attacker lays seige to a defender,

the defender only has to not fall, to win, that is their only objective: not die and or turn away the enemy.

the attacker must actually gain something to win, either destruction of the enemy, reclamation of something, they have to have acheived some kind of objective to win


since the SOB in this case were the attackers, and they didnt gain anything, and in fact had losses so high as to make commiting further forces "not worth it" then they lost... plain and simple.

weather you personally want this to be true or not is up to you,
you get to make up the fluff as you want.

but logically, one cannot claim to win, or even draw, a battle where you were on the attack, with a goal, and had the initiative, but the attack didnt suceed, the goal wasnt gained, and the initiative was lost, and you retreated.

Actually, the opening shots of that conflict were fired by the Space Wolves.

It went like this:

Ecclesiarchy hears that the people of Fenris are worshipping Pagan Gods.

They send a vessel to go to Fenris and check it out. The Space Wolves fire upon it as it approaches Fenris. The ship, not being equipped or intended to fight Space Marines, flees.

A year later, the Ecclesiarchy returns with 3 Orders of the SoB and lay seige to the Fang. The war lasts 3 weeks before the Ecclesiarchy withdraws. Incidentally, this is longer than the Thousand Sons managed to lay siege to the Fang in M32.

That's pretty much the whole story from C:SW(5E). What are the Space Wolves hiding on Fenris? We don't know yet. They might just be defensive... or maybe the native Fenrisians have taken to worshipping pagan gods, and the SW are trying to take care of that problem internally, before word gets out to the wider Imperium.

LightKing wrote:
how can sisters compete with astartes, and space wolves in perticular


see the fluff is so messed up sometimes not consistent

How is it not consistent?

The Sisters were presented as "equal to space marines" since the beginning, and charged with ensuring the purity of anyone else. If a chapter goes rogue, they are the ones that go there. This has not changed for 20+ years of background as far as I know. They have a similar training than a marine (perhaps better), a similar equipment (arguably far better, depending on the chapter), are 100% trustworthy, Chaos cannot corrupt them, have that "faith" thing that borders on the miraculous and, more important than anything else, they will face the Astartes without fear. At range it is the closest you can get to a marine without being a marine, and in close combat they have few chances... unless we are talking about Celestians, who specializes on close combat. If someone decides to send an army against Astartes, they are the best option for the spearhead. Another Chapter will perhaps join the enemy, and only a few know of the existence of the Grey Knights.

Perhaps you are confusing the background with the tabletop game. In the game, it has been a long while since the Sisters got a proper Codex, and their models are awfully expensive, so they are known to few, and for some reason some players like to berate the armies they don´t play. And they have been more or less kept out of the codex creep. In the background, there are less Sisters than Marines, yet they are better known, and they are the best human (not modified) warriors the Imperium of mankind has. And killing marines is part of their job. Not an easy part, but they are in charge of it.

The first appearance of the Sisters is one of them burning to hell a Space Marine of the Rainbow Warriors.

Now that I think of it, look at the cost in points: 12 for a Sister, 13 for a Chaos Space Marine, 14 for a Space Marine. Gives you a good idea of what the background from the Codexes says.

Truth be said, if you read some Black Library books, a few marines can conquer full worlds, destroy full armies, or kill a thousand Chaos Space Marines or a thousand Sisters with no effort. But this does not match what you read in the Codex though. Perhaps you are referring to that when talking about inconsistencies.

Edit: I just realized that you opened another thread with another "inconsistency": space marines fighting primarchs and winning, and using Kor Phaeron and Luther (who are not marines at all) as examples. You see a lot of inconsistencies everywhere, and most of them seem to derive from the "faction X is mega awesome" idea. All factions are powerful in their own way. Read stuff from different factions and you will get different points of view

The SoB lost, as they were unable to accomplish their objectives. That constitutes a loss in military terms.
It was not a stalemate. The Ecclesiarchy was forced to withdraw.
They decided that 'it was not worth it' which means that they must have been losing more resources than the SW, otherwise it would have definitely been worth it.
I have a hard time imagining the SoB saying: 'Sisters! We have a goal that is so important that it justifies attacking one of the most hounoured Astartes chapters!' (3 weeks later) 'Wait what? We are actually winning? Ah, our goal is not that important anyways, let us just withdraw...'
Thus they were most definitely losing. If they would have been winning it would have made no sense to withdraw.
If they fought to a stalemate the SoB must still have been the losing side, as they arrived with superior force (3 orders no less) and probably had more resources (with them being the besieger after all). You do not begin a siege without making sure you have the forces and resources to ensure you victory. This either means that the SW were far stronger than the Ecclesiarchy expected or that the SoB were taking far heavier losses than expected. In either way, the SoB lost. The SW accomplished their goals, while the SoB did not.


In any case, the precise details of the conflict are unknown. It is only a short mention in the SW and SoB codexes.

 da001 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
how can sisters compete with astartes, and space wolves in perticular


see the fluff is so messed up sometimes not consistent

How is it not consistent?

The Sisters were presented as "equal to space marines" since the beginning, and charged with ensuring the purity of anyone else. If a chapter goes rogue, they are the ones that go there. This has not changed for 20+ years of background as far as I know. They have a similar training than a marine (perhaps better), a similar equipment (arguably far better, depending on the chapter), are 100% trustworthy, Chaos cannot corrupt them, have that "faith" thing that borders on the miraculous and, more important than anything else, they will face the Astartes without fear. At range it is the closest you can get to a marine without being a marine, and in close combat they have few chances... unless we are talking about Celestians, who specializes on close combat. If someone decides to send an army against Astartes, they are the best option for the spearhead. Another Chapter will perhaps join the enemy, and only a few know of the existence of the Grey Knights.

They are not presented as 'equal to marines'. They are presented as 'almost equal to marines'. That is an important difference. They still lack all the genetic enhancements and are not descended from the Emperor and thus also lack the significance as religious symbols. They also lack the extremely long lifespans of the Astartes. In short: The Sisters are still human, while the Astartes are post-human. Therefore they can never be entirely equal.
Also, purging renegade Space Marines is not their main task. They do it when called upon, certainly, but most of the time that duty falls to other Space Marine chapters.

Pretty much it's dramatically vague. Were the Sisters slowl beating the wolves back? Possibly? Were they causing not a single dent? Maybe? Were they breaking through at a decent speed but spending too much resources? I guess? Were they winning but the Ecclesiarchy had an internal squabble, or an Inquisitor got all frothy, or some other SM chapters found out and started to threaten them that they would have to leave? My guess is as good as any other.

In all technicality, SoB lost the battle. Before then, they could have been winning or losing horridly. In the end, we'll likely never know

I always assumed the Sisters lost this one.

They are making a siege. The fortress does not fall. That´s a defeat.

However, it could have been a political defeat, and not a military one. The Wolves have allies in the Imperium too, and whoever ordered the attack may have found himself in dangerous waters. Three weeks and the walls are holding... a long siege against a First Founding Chapter is not the same than a quick victory from a political point of view.

We're not given casualty numbers or, really, anything about the actual siege. We know they showed up, camped out in the snow for three weeks, and then left.

That's it.

Hell, that *might* have been the goal all along. They may have just wanted to show up and show the Wolves that, yes, people can land on Fenris and camp out on your doorstep.

We are told that the Ecclesiarchy is "forced to withdraw". It does not say what it was forced to withdraw by. Since it withdrew, and was not slaughtered to a (wo)man, then we can assume the Fang was not shooting at the ships in orbit, and that, for whatever reason, the Space Wolves were unable to kill 3 Orders of Sisters (these orders, incidentally, are not named, thus I have to assume these are Minor Orders Militant, so we're talking less than 3000 Sisters present, and possibly as few as a few dozen) Why? We aren't told.

In military terms, yes it was a Wolf victory in that the Sisters eventually stopped attacking them. But neither force is said to have defeated the other, so it's a draw in that sense.

 Psienesis wrote:
We are told that the Ecclesiarchy is "forced to withdraw".

Actually, there's no mention of them being forced to withdraw. It just says that they decide to let the Wolves be.

This may vary on which publication one is reading, I seem to recall in C:SW, forget which Edition, that the Ecclesiarchy is "pushed from Fenris" or some such language.

"The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces"

Codex Space Wolves, 5th, page 19. "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" entry.

It may be that the war was not going well.
It may be a political issue. Perhaps they were just trying to make a point, but were unable or unwilling to go to a full-out war with the Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anybody have another source? This is 5th edition. Is there another source? Someone with the Sister´s Codex?

 da001 wrote:
"The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces"

Codex Space Wolves, 5th, page 19. "The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris" entry.

It may be that the war was not going well.
It may be a political issue. Perhaps they were just trying to make a point, but were unable or unwilling to go to a full-out war with the Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does anybody have another source? This is 5th edition. Is there another source? Someone with the Sister´s Codex?

Oh, so it is the most current version. Good, I was worried I was looking at an outdated one.

Nope, the last two SoB codexes didn't mention this conflict. And, as far as I'm aware, neither did the two before that.

 da001 wrote:
...and they are the best human (not modified) warriors the Imperium of mankind has.

As individual warriors, maybe. Personally I think a Veteran Guardsman is just as good, power armor and bolt weapons notwithstanding. Braver too. As a conquering army, they rank less than the Guard, Navy, and Astartes. Those three are meant to conquer, and defend territory. Sisters are closer to SAS or SEALs.

The Astartes are not a conquering army,either. They're a scalpel. They make a small crack in the enemy's lines, establishing a beach-head, that can then be exploited and widened by the Imperial Guard.

 da001 wrote:
Chaos cannot corrupt them

One of them did apparently became a Champion of Slaanesh, and IIRC a whole order did get mind-controlled in one of the Cain novels.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Astartes are not a conquering army,either. They're a scalpel. They make a small crack in the enemy's lines, establishing a beach-head, that can then be exploited and widened by the Imperial Guard.

Fair enough; I suppose that makes them equivalent to the 'Shock Armies' the Soviets fielded. The ones entrusted with cracking open Nazi/Allied lines for the armor and mechanized infantry behind them to capitalize on.

One of them did apparently became a Champion of Slaanesh, and IIRC a whole order did get mind-controlled in one of the Cain novels.

One Third-party character featured in a CCG produced by a third-party company.

By the Codices and anything directly related to the table-top, or published by GW, there is no such thing as a "Corrupted" Sister of Battle.

Being "mind controlled" by a Psyker also isn't anything at all like the same thing, as it has nothing to do with your own free will.

 Psienesis wrote:


By the Codices and anything directly related to the table-top, or published by GW, there is no such thing as a "Corrupted" Sister of Battle.

Possible; or they could just as easily have been covered up by the Inquisition to preserve the image of the Sisters. It wouldn't be the first time the Imperium altered its own records.

 Psienesis wrote:

One of them did apparently became a Champion of Slaanesh, and IIRC a whole order did get mind-controlled in one of the Cain novels.

One Third-party character featured in a CCG produced by a third-party company.

By the Codices and anything directly related to the table-top, or published by GW, there is no such thing as a "Corrupted" Sister of Battle.

Being "mind controlled" by a Psyker also isn't anything at all like the same thing, as it has nothing to do with your own free will.

And even then, I consider it canon, keep in mind that it is openly noted it is only 1, single, individual Sister that has ever fallen to chaos.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
As individual warriors, maybe. Personally I think a Veteran Guardsman is just as good, power armor and bolt weapons notwithstanding.

Sisters have their Acts of Faith, though. I'd say that this does indeed put them on top as unmodified human armies in the Imperium go.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Those three are meant to conquer, and defend territory. Sisters are closer to SAS or SEALs.

Sissters conquer and defend too. They take part in crusades and a big part of their role is guarding Ecclesiarchial territory.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Possible; or they could just as easily have been covered up by the Inquisition to preserve the image of the Sisters. It wouldn't be the first time the Imperium altered its own records.

I dunno, we've heard plenty about Chaos Marines, and the Imperium wouldn't want anybody knowing about those either. Yet we've never heard about Chaos SoBs in any GW studio material.

 StarTrotter wrote:
keep in mind that it is openly noted it is only 1, single, individual Sister that has ever fallen to chaos.

Not the studio material, though.

That's why I said, and even then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also keep in mind they are trained pretty much since childhood to be devout, obedient, stubborn, and if going ordo militant have far more training than any standard guardsman regiment. Even a veteran can then be compared to a veteran sister and, combined with faith, spread them apart quite a bit.

 StarTrotter wrote:
That's why I said, and even then.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were thinking that the studio material had said something like that. It's a somewhat common misconception.