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"Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the wars desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born we are the flame of Humanity where the rest of the galaxy is just the spark. In centuries of warfare, against the vileness of the alien, the lies of the heretic, the foulness of the mutant, I have never known fear but your silence terrifies me. "

Sanguinius addressing the Emperor during the Battle for Terra

its interesting....why does Sanguinius say they are the "greatest humans ever born" is he mentioning his 17 brothers, or this case the other loyalist primarchs, or is he also talking about the astartes as well

its odd for Sang, a primarch to compare himself to an astartes

LightKing wrote:
its odd for Sang, a primarch to compare himself to an astartes

Not really, the Primarchs have shown great love and respect for their Legions; treating them as friends, sons and brothers.

Most Primarchs talked about their soldiers with respect and humility, and treated them like sons. Which they are, sort of. Particularly the loyal ones, but this apply even to many of the traitor Primarchs (not all).

That´s why Primarchs were considered "great leaders" instead of "jackasses full of themselves".

Clearly he's talking about Astartes.

"Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the wars of desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born..."

Reading comprehension, it helps.

I think the oddest part is for Sanguinus to describe himself as a thing that was born. Assembled in a lab, majik kidnapped, blasted into outerspace, irradiated and adopted? Yes. Born? No.

The human part is a stretch too, coming from a creature 9 feet tall with freaking wings.

The core dna is still (theoretically speaking of course) human, so the fact that he is 9 feet tall and has wings does nothing to change the fact (actually, it proves it) that he is, in fact, one of the greatest humans ever... err.... born... made... whatever you want to call it.

Stars are born from explosions of gaseous matter in space.

We still call it the birth of a star, even though it isn't a normal human birth. Try not to take the phrase literally.

yeah but he's saying "we" as the legion astartes as well..

"greatest humans" he's saying astartes are the greatest humans as well?

it seems odd a primarch would make himself seem equal to astartes

"Born" sounds fine to me.

"We, brave warriors assembled in a laboratory, will fight to make the scientists that made us proud!" sounds a little weird. It just lacks epicness.

And both Astartes and Primarchs have a tendency of talking about themselves as "humans", even if they are not. That´s not new. Indoctrination and/or politics I guess. When Astartes go rogue some of them claim to be superior than humans, that´s for sure.


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LightKing wrote:

it seems odd a primarch would make himself seem equal to astartes

They are his sons. He loves them.

They are always depicted talking like that (the loyalist ones)

 da001 wrote:
"Born" sounds fine to me.

"We, brave warriors assembled in a laboratory, will fight to make the scientists that made us proud!" sounds a little weird. It just lacks epicness.

And both Astartes and Primarchs have a tendency of talking about themselves as "humans", even if they are not. That´s not new. Indoctrination and/or politics I guess. When Astartes go rogue some of them claim to be superior than humans, that´s for sure.


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LightKing wrote:

it seems odd a primarch would make himself seem equal to astartes

They are his sons. He loves them.

They are always depicted talking like that (the loyalist ones)

but im sure sanguinius knows, as a primarch, that he is physically and mentally superior to an astartes

So he should lord that over them?

Feth no! It's Sanguinus! He looks to them and, even though they are not Primarchs, they stand at his side in battle and face the worst things the galaxy can throw at them. They are, in a sense, greater even than he.

There is a line in one of the Space Marine, or perhaps IG, books later where a Space Marine is standing near some IG soldiers, and comments that he is greatly impressed by the bravery of the common soldiers of the Imperium, because they are simply mere humans, and lack the superior genetics, and enhancements, that Space Marines have.

He comments to them that he is impressed that, despite their frailty, they stand and face the enemies of the Emperor, telling them, "I am a Space Marine. I do not know how to fail".

LightKing wrote:

but im sure sanguinius knows, as a primarch, that he is physically and mentally superior to an astartes

That´s dangerous thinking.

1) If you are a (good) leader, you should avoid seeing yourself as vastly superior than the people you command. And if you do, it is not a good thing. It makes you a far worse leader, because you are lacking respect for the people you command. And you must hide this feeling from everyone, and be careful never to be heard speaking of yourself as if you were superior. Especially if you are speaking about your sons, to your own father no less.

2) While it may seem that you are right... that is not 100% accurate. A human is usually weaker than an Astartes who in turn is usually weaker than a Custodes who in turn is usually weaker than a Primarch who in turn is usually weaker than the Emperor. But there are many exceptions in the fluff. Luther was a human who defeated a Primarch, an Ork nearly killed the Emperor, Malcador the Sigillite was second only to the Emperor, a human called Narthan Dume was the worst enemy of the Emperor during the Unification Wars... a single conscript with a lasgun can kill a veteran space marine. It happens all the time. The mightiest hero can die at the hands of an idiot armed with a missile launcher.

It is all about the context. A Primarch clearly believing that he is "superior" to all astartes may find himself stabbed by Sevatar, nearly killed by Eugen Temba in a sword duel, nearly obliterated and then smashed by a human driving a warhound, being shot in the head by Sabik Wayland or dragged to death by a bunch of Chaos Space Marines during the first Black Crusade.

So I don´t think they think they are "superior". That would be a weakness.

LightKing, to reiterate some friendly tips from another thread that you are not keeping track of anymore apparently:
Capitalization and punctuation are your friend, particularly on these forums. Please use both.

If you're going to make a bunch of threads, it does help to have some more thought process behind the thread than "aren't living saints more powerful than the emperor?" with no justification or explanation.

 troa wrote:
(...)
If you're going to make a bunch of threads, it does help to have some more thought process behind the thread than "aren't living saints more powerful than the emperor?" with no justification or explanation.

Wow I didn´t see that thread.
Living Saints are expressions of the Emperor´s divine power. It is like saying that bloodthirsters are more powerful than Khorne.

@LightKing: Lexicanum may be your friend: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page#.UqjxQPTuIuc
It has some mistakes, and opinions presented as facts. But it is BIG, free and full of goodies. Enjoy it.

The "we" he used may also have been referring to the current generation of humanity. This way his statement includes all the defenders. The unmodified humans in the Navy, Army & related forces.

Why exactly does the emperor's silence terrify Sanguinus anyway? I'm unfamiliar with the context beyond the obvious impending battle.

If the being you regard as your father, your superior and wise beyond imagining is silent in the hour of greatest peril instead of rising morale, giving orders and being a rock in the waters you get scared as hell.
The silence implies defeat and doubt.

Astartes are often referred to as a sub-species so yes they are human just different.

Certain Primarchs like Lorgar, Sanguinius, Vulkan are very humble and refer to their legion as if they are equals.

 amanita wrote:
Why exactly does the emperor's silence terrify Sanguinus anyway? I'm unfamiliar with the context beyond the obvious impending battle.

It is in the context:

Right until that point, the Emperor had been giving orders without hesitation, never making a really big mistake or a bad decision, never showing doubt. For centuries.

However, it was because he had the ability to foresee the future. He already knew what to do. He knew the result before making the decisions. Not anymore, there is a point where his vision goes blind, and he has reached it. He does not know why. He wonders if he is going to die, for all he sees beyond this point is darkness. No longer able to see the future, he knows doubt... or something close. He just waits, wondering what is going to happen.

For three times, he is asked for orders. For three times, he refuses to acknowledge the question. This deeply unsettles anyone surrounding him.

Then the shields of Horus' ship go down. What to do, he wonders? Is it a trap? A chance?

I don´t know if it would be ok to post here the full short story. It is from White Dwarf 161 (that golden age when WD was awesome). The author is Bill King and the entry is called "Horus Heresy: Aboard Horus' battle barge". If you get a chance, please read also "Horus Heresy: The assault on Earth".

I think pretty much everyone in the 40k fanbase knows what happens when the vengeful spirits shields go down :p without needing the full WD article.. its only the most well known part of 40ks back story

There is a difference between being told a movie and watching it...

There is a BIG difference between "knowing" a version of the story and reading the original, brilliantly written source.

I would recommend reading "The Horus Heresy: Collected Visions" (the old version) to ALL fans. It is absolutely amazing. Even if someone already told you what happened. Believe me, it is not the same.


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And the same goes for these and other old WD articles.


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And no. Most fans know nothing of the background. They just hear some stuff on the Internet and make up their minds on the rest, but few actually bothers reading the stuff. Or they read a single source and believe it is the ultimate truth. You only need to visit the background section to realize how many people do not know what the background says.


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Did you know that the Emperor knew doubt?

Did you know that the Emperor believed he was going to die during the siege, because he was a seer and he saw nothing but darkness beyond that point?


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Well lucklly I'm free to disregard your spoiler as HERESY and choose to believe in the countless other hints that point in the opposite direction
Don't think they'd say that outright again.

 da001 wrote:

I don´t know if it would be ok to post here the full short story. It is from White Dwarf 161 (that golden age when WD was awesome). The author is Bill King and the entry is called "Horus Heresy: Aboard Horus' battle barge". If you get a chance, please read also "Horus Heresy: The assault on Earth".

Maybe not, but you can link to it

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

 Thairne wrote:
Well lucklly I'm free to disregard your spoiler as HERESY and choose to believe in the countless other hints that point in the opposite direction
Don't think they'd say that outright again.

Ha ha ha!

There are hints (and some rather blunt statements) in both directions... I hope they never give us a definite answer.

Still, HERESY! Someone bring me a fething Power Boot to §$%§&§$ that $%&§$6 §$%§$%%& §$%§&"§%!!!

Luckily that webway portal nearby allows the much more capable Eldar to manipulate the fate of humankind now that the Emperor has been dead for some time.

That's right, I poked you with a stick. Now what!?

On topic. I really believe he was refering to his fellow Astartes in general, although it is a poor choice of words to use the reference of 'human'.

LightKing wrote:
"Three Legions of Marines stand to defend you, sire. All of us will unflinchingly place ourselves between you and the wars desolation. We are the greatest humans ever born we are the flame of Humanity where the rest of the galaxy is just the spark. In centuries of warfare, against the vileness of the alien, the lies of the heretic, the foulness of the mutant, I have never known fear but your silence terrifies me. "

Sanguinius addressing the Emperor during the Battle for Terra

its interesting....why does Sanguinius say they are the "greatest humans ever born" is he mentioning his 17 brothers, or this case the other loyalist primarchs, or is he also talking about the astartes as well

its odd for Sang, a primarch to compare himself to an astartes

Lightking, honestly I think you need to read a few more of the HH books and fill yourself in on the details before you make thread after thread asking inane questions like "can a cannoness kill a Primarch" and the like. It's tiresome and prompts needless discussions which almost always end up with a member explaining and re-explaining the basic facts of the heresy to you. This is not a dig, just a suggestion...