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I'm planning on making a fan-made ruleset and codex rewrite (it'll be a long time in progress), and I need some opinions.
Who likes/dislikes the boon table, and for what reasons?

I am mostly okay with it. The issue is just the plain worthless ones (Rolling Hatred on my Kharn? ) and how Dark Apotheosis is written. If they only added something like 'Re-roll this result if you do not have a Daemon Prince model', it would have been a lot better, but as of now the supposedly best result is turned into the worst since I do not have a DP yet. :(

With that in mind, I do not doubt that you can make a better one regardless. Go and write rules with my blessing, child.

I like it, made a lot of my games fun. not every roll was great, but I had fun. Increasing armor save on a terminator sgt was meh, but rolling Eternal warrior on typhus was great.

I think it's a missed opportunity, sort of. I'm fine with it being random, and I'm even mostly fine with the idea that you could get results that you can't really use. The big problem is that even if you get lucky, you're probably not going to actually use what you got on the boon table.

Because you only get to start using the boon table seriously once you get into close combat (or, on rare chances, after firing with a short-ranged weapon), that means that you're not even getting a chance to roll on the table until late game. If you even get to at all. Rolling +1S on turn 5 means you're probably not going to actually get to USE those boons.

In order to fix them, I think what I would do is use them in reverse. Something like you can pay 10 points and you get to choose your boon, but every turn that you don't kill an opponent in a challenge, you have to roll on a curse table (-1T, -1W, turn into spawn, etc.). If you take multiple boons, you have to roll as many times on the curse table as boons you took every turn you had to roll. That way you could buff the hell out of a character as much as you want, but every buff is a real risk.

Honestly, I'd even allow for a way to purchase dark apotheosis (say, for an increased cost, like 30 points instead of 10), but if you do, it causes say 3 rolls on the curse table, so the demon princes would start to quickly disintegrate unless they were able to be used right away.

That way you can keep things random while also bringing a little bit of playability into the game. The way it is now, boons rarely have any impact at all on a game. The rare chance of dark apotheosis doesn't really do enough to cover for the fact that they're usually not used, practically speaking.

I honestly think it is flawed. To start with, many argue the codex is also supposed to represent renegades (especially since not all the traitors really use chaos). Well they also get stuck with this. It forces champions to declare challenges which not only screws them over but also doesn't make logical sense for many Sm factions. Not all ard glory hounds, deceit, lies, tricks. Some would rather strike from behind protection and avoid close combat. Also it is absolutely stupid that becoming a DP can often make your unit worse (and how can Ahriman become a DP when the fluff is like nope heck Abaddon for a while had the same problem)

Anyways, onto the mechanical problems. The biggest problem is it is provided in an army that arguably has the worst deployment rules in the game. You get for mobility, spawn, bikers, raptors, rhino, Land Raider, 2 characters and a 1/6 chance of getting infiltrate upon d3 units. And well, that's it. The biggest problem with Chaos is arguably that they don't have agressive enough deployment. You can have hordes of 20 marines but 20 marines you have to foot slog them across the field. By the time you reach your enemy, the game's almost ending. By the time you get the boons, they are either dead, barely dead, or getting unreliable results. Cool my khorne units got... oh wait they already have that special rule. Oh cool! my guy with no guns just got +1 bs..... Simply put, it's something which is interesting and fluffy (bar certain moments) but often provides so little use to the army it doesn't matter. Even when you get the random buffs, it usually means very little (oh and don't forget eternal warrior sergeants!)

Down with it.

1: I deeply dislike the "Warriors of Chaos" rule and everything related with it, mostly for fluffy reasons. A Night Lord champion risking his life in a suicidal act of bravery to prove him before gods he does not even believe in? Nonsense. Getting rid of this abomination of a rule and keeping the Boon table seems odd.

2: Adding more random elements does not make the game funnier to me. Quite the contrary. Chaos should not be random stuff all the time. It should be darker, not more random.

3: It slows down the game.

4: It has a chance of completely breaking the game. I am enjoying a balanced, hard fight and then BANG, my champion turns into a Daemon Prince. Not fun. I like a good fight, not a one-sided one. And being forced to declare challenges makes it worse.

Love it. I've lost a game because of it before, (game I had in the BAG) but I enjoy it.

I actualy like it. Its fun thx to that its random, and fluffy. U know, being rewarded after sloughter some worthy opponent.

It's fun and stuff.

I don't like it for 1 reason only; going daemon prince should be an enormously positive experience...instead it takes your tooled out character and strips all their gear to make them a no wings and prince. If it took them and gave them wings, armour = to what they had, ML = to what they have, and keep relics then I would like it. As is I dread rolling the daemon prince result...which is what every chaos follower hopes for.

I love it. It's a lot of fun for two reasons. The spawn result and the daemon prince result. The other ones I really don't care much about, but its always a blast when one of my berzerker champions wins a challenge, and everyone gathers around anxiously awaiting for that 6 or 2. It's great fun.

I like it because it is fluffy and harks back to the old Nurgle/Tzeench & Khorne/Slaanesh books (Forget their name cause a tatoo artist stole mine). Where you had an even bigger random event/mutation.

My only issue with it is that we HAVE to challenge every single combat. Makes for really boring games tbh, if you don't just throw your sergants away first turn.

Also throws away any point in kitting out certain models any more. So long handy Power fist/Axe... You know he's dead 1st turn if you get charged/drop podded.

Was quite happy with the rule, just not the implementation.

i dont like it.

chaos should be evil, random needs to go.

im not sure what they were thinking with the herp derp randomness.

Dislike it, while I enjoy mutation based armies, I kinda want to BUY what I just need instead!

I just don't like the implementation, the one in Fantasy is far superior. (DP's keep all gifts/equipment, you can use your LD to try and avoid spawndom, and your LD is based for if you go DP too), not to mention it's just stats, not stats and nearly every special rule ingame.

I would like to see a few changes.

1.) Change the Champion of Chaos rule to remove forced challenges...it is really stupid when your character runs into a fight with no hope of winning. I would rather see the boons be overwhelmingly good, and function only in challenges as an incentive to challenge...as they function now it is generally a penalty. Perhaps include some sort of possible penalty for refusing an enemy challenge. Perhaps a D6 roll and on say a 1-2 a randomly selected character in the unit becomes a spawn.

2.)Dark Apotheosis needs re-working. What should be one of the best results is often terrible. The Daemon Prince should retain any weapons, abilities and boons it had at the time of the apotheosis. In addition if the Character had a jump pack he should be winged. I also feel the result should not remove you from combat.

The only thing I don't really like about this is that I'm forced to issue challenges . It should be optional; I don't issue a challenge, my Chaos Lord fights normally and gets no reward. Do I feel particularly lucky today? I issue a challenge, win and get a reward (or turned into a Spawn, lol).

I think it's bloody awful and a mess, and in need of substantal retooling for it to become a decent mechanic.

1- By its very existence, it nerfs Chaos characters.
Quite an odd statement to make but hear me out here. CSM characters do not have the options that many other armies do because rather than buying them, they can 'win' them on a good roll. As an example, Loyalists can buy Artificer Armour. They can buy rerolls to wound. They can buy Eternal Warrior, they can upgrade to a Chapter Master for +1W/A and they can select a Tactic for Crusader, IWND etc.
Conversely, CSM Characters are expected to earn these through killing characters. That's fair enough except for the obvious problem that a 3W, 3+ model is going to lose a fight to his 4W, 2+ opponent. He cannot get the relevant upgrades to win unless he snacks on some sacrificial Sergeants beforehand and gets lucky.
Chaos Lord Facemelter, Scourge of Cadia and Champion of Chaos, needs 5 minutes to build himself up to an even footing before he can trade blows with an actual enemy HQ choice. Why not allow the Armoury to duplicate some of the more generic upgrades, or allow you to purchase some pre-determined traits at significant expense?

2- They are given out too readily
Again, hear me out here. Typhushas been alive for 10,000 years (timey-wimey Warp dependant) and over that time, has apparently earned nothing more than Bloated and Masochism. Ahriman has apparently earned none. However in a single battle, Lord Facemelter can quite happily earn 3-4 rolls without a sweat. At this rate he will either be a Spawn or a Daemon Prince within a single day of Sergeant-slaying.
It's been made pretty clear that a Champion can survive since the Heresy on a diet of slaughtered Imperials and have only slightly bigger biceps or a few more spells to show for it. And yet we are expected that a single dead character will catapult your Cultist Champion into a Daemon Prince?

3- The best result and final goal is often a penalty
If Lord Facemelter has a Juggernaut, Sigil of Corruption and Axe of Blind Fury, he's going to do pretty well for himself. Certainly much more than the transition into a Daemon Prince that sees him lose the Invul, loses all speed, drops his weapon, loses his IC status and trades Rage for Furious Charge. This is a very, very bad trade to make and the only way out is to simply not own a Prince model, in which case he dies and you get nothing.
Becoming a Daemon Prince should never be a bad choice. It is the final goal for a CSM. I can totally get behind limiting it, making it super rare or far more likely to see Spawnhood, but it should never be executed as a punishment.

Agreed the tables not bad but the challenge rule is nuts. If I was to change one entry it would be prince hood/spawndom I'd combine the two and make it a LD test if passed Princedom (keeping all kit wave mounts) and if failed spawn losing every thing.

This one change would mean mr skull spliter (my boss) woundn't have to chuck a sarge into all challenges just in case I mess up the roll and he's goes all wibbly on me.

Another thought would be to make that LD test only occur after a certain number of boons have been granted.

So if your Character kills 3 or 4 other characters he tests. Otherwise he just earns standard boons.

Breng77 wrote:
Another thought would be to make that LD test only occur after a certain number of boons have been granted.

So if your Character kills 3 or 4 other characters he tests. Otherwise he just earns standard boons.

The only problem with that is it'll often mean daemonhood only occurs on turn 5 or 6, by which time the game is either over or about to be.

Not sure why that is largely a problem...it also means sometimes it will never happen. I'm ok with keeping it as is but from a "fluff" standpoint requiring earning a number of boons would be fluffy.

I like the random Boons better than random Warlord traits that totally change how I was gonna use my HQ...
Ofcourse, ive also had a +1 to Armor Save boon facing a Grav-Biker spam army... D'oh!

I do like the table as it is fun to get some little bonuses for your characters.

I would make a few changes though, some of which others have said:

1. Make all special characters immune to spawn and daemon prince results
2. Make challenging optional (if you don't challenge then you don't earn boons either)
3. Make it so that the character keeps his equipment/gifts/boons etc when becoming a prince
4. Allow the character an LD test to avoid becoming a spawn
5. Allow the character a re-roll if they get a result they can't use i.e. a terminator character getting + 1 armour save or a character with no guns getting + 1 BS
6. Make cultist champions re-roll the daemon prince result - this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

It's good fun, is random just like chaos, and makes for great stories.

6. Make cultist champions re-roll the daemon prince result - this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

Humans can become DP's too you know.

Breng77 wrote:
Not sure why that is largely a problem...it also means sometimes it will never happen. I'm ok with keeping it as is but from a "fluff" standpoint requiring earning a number of boons would be fluffy.

honestly the boon system makes no real sense. It seems nonsensical that after all these years the named characters have so few boons until you deploy them. It also doesn't make sense why you can suddenly just be constantly joined from none at all to all of them within one game to lose them all the next. Also how is it equally praise worthy to the dark gods if you kill a chapter marine, archon, imperial guard sergeant, etc?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

6. Make cultist champions re-roll the daemon prince result - this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

Humans can become DP's too you know.

Yes, but only after an achievement that stands testament to the glory of chaos, and would put many Lords of Chaos to shame.

I.e. Not a sacrificial piece of dirt, like what we're using.


Oh, and the very odd fact that a Zombie champion can become a Daemon Prince, despite being dead. And has already had its soul consigned to Nurgle as a lesser daemon.

I think the table is far too big and there is way too much on there. Most of it ends up being useless for certain people. "Haha I have Eternal Warrior, on my one wound sgt."

I would much rather buy gifts, or have lesser, greater and exalted gifts like the Daemon Codex. I actually look forward to rolling on them with my allied Lord of Change.

I don't have a spawn or a DP I just have bases in the proper size that i put the model on top of.

 Selym wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

6. Make cultist champions re-roll the daemon prince result - this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

Humans can become DP's too you know.

Yes, but only after an achievement that stands testament to the glory of chaos, and would put many Lords of Chaos to shame.

I.e. Not a sacrificial piece of dirt, like what we're using.


Oh, and the very odd fact that a Zombie champion can become a Daemon Prince, despite being dead. And has already had its soul consigned to Nurgle as a lesser daemon.

That one however is odd, but the Sacrifice rising above his status and becoming far better is something that happens in the armies of Chaos.