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Orders are typically taken on Ld8. You use the highest leadership of the receiving unit, not the unit issuing the orders. And leadership from allied models can't be used for this test. Commissars increase the leadership of the squad to 9, but nobody seriously takes commissars anymore, especially now that inquisitors are available.

For completeness, LD8

0.62*.72 = 0.45
1.29*.72 = 0.93
1.95*.72 = 1.40

1.04*.72 = 0.75
2.15*.72 = 1.54
3.25*.72 = 2.34

So really it's almost insignificantly better on T4 4+ and T3 3+. It's just not that significant and you give up performance against SM (which are a significant amount of the books out).

rigeld2 wrote:
For completeness, LD8

0.62*.72 = 0.45
1.29*.72 = 0.93
1.95*.72 = 1.40

1.04*.72 = 0.75
2.15*.72 = 1.54
3.25*.72 = 2.34

So really it's almost insignificantly better on T4 4+ and T3 3+. It's just not that significant and you give up performance against SM (which are a significant amount of the books out).

6 out of 15 armies are currently MEQ, which is about 1/3 (please don't quote my maths it's a round-about figure). So 1 in 3 times you will go up against space marines, and one in 3 times plasma will be more useful, according to your logic.
Now, we think about what else plasma is good against.
Tyranids.
Orks (Light vehicles)
That's 8 out of 15, over half.
Plasma guns are better over half the time, so statistically in half the games you play plasma guns will be more useful.

Right - that's what I was trying to say.
Plasma is also good against DE vehicles (9 of 15), Necrons (Immortals are MEQ, Warriors aren't but Plasma is good against Wraiths and DLords) (10 of 15), Demon MCs...

rigeld2 wrote:
Right - that's what I was trying to say.
Plasma is also good against DE vehicles (9 of 15), Necrons (Immortals are MEQ, Warriors aren't but Plasma is good against Wraiths and DLords) (10 of 15), Demon MCs...

11/15. Tau MCs and Battlesuits (think Farsight Deathstar).

I'd also like to point out that easysauce's comparison wasn't a fair one. 3 plasma guns are 45 points, not 65 points. So the actual comparison is 9 las guns to 3 plasma guns, not 13 las guns.

On topic, I don't think I'd ever run an infantry squad without a special weapon. Throwing melta or plasma or hell even flamers on Guardsmen can get you so much more mileage out of that squad.

On a personal level, I run my CCs with 2 plasma guns, flag, vox, commander with a boltgun as I face mostly stand and shoot armies, short of 1-2 build. My lasguns always end up wounding the other guy more often than my plasmaguns (which kill the veteran most of the time) or the boltgun.

I also use orders, so I get alot of shots downhill.

rigeld2 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
how about being less rude, and reading my post which specifically said plasma is only better against high armor like TEQ's


3 plasma guns, cost 65pts, hit on 4's + cause wounds on 1's

so 50% hit, 33%miss, and ~16% to miss AND cause a wound on you
so three shots = 1.5 hits, 1miss,.5 of a self wound.
against HEAVY armour like teq/meq, you kill one bad guy, and have a good chance to kill yourself.

3*.5*.83=1.245 wounds with no save.
3*.16*.3=.14 chance of losing a model (you get an armor save against gets hot)

13 las guns, 65 pts 13 shots, 6.5 hits, ~2 wounds,
against marines 3+ and 2+, its much much worse DPS then plasma, but against 4+ its the same IE likely results in ONE dead bad guy.. against any enemy with a 5+ or worse, the las guns do more wounds on average then an equal pts worth of plasma.

13*.5*.3*.16=0.31 vs T4 with 2+ save
13*.5*.3*.33=0.64 vs T4 with 3+ save
13*.5*.3*.50=0.98 vs T4 with 4+ save

against T3 with different saves:
13*.5*.5*.16=0.52 vs T3 with 2+ save
13*.5*.5*.33=1.07 vs T3 with 3+ save
13*.5*.5*.50=1.63 vs T3 with 4+ save

So literally the only time 13 lasguns outguns 3 plasma is against T3 4+ models. (or worse armor save, obviously)

frfsrf can double that lasgun damage at >12'', and increase by 50% at <12%.

Honestly i'd avoid plasma altogether as guard and go for meltaguns instead. Plasma on bs 3 is junk that has a very good chance of killing its user, i can't remember the last time i had a plasma gunner still alive by turn 5, let alone turn 6. They are also crappy against decent armour, and weak armour won't go anywhere near them anyway. Their only real niches are meq and monstrous creatures, and i don't really see either of them.

By contrast, melta is good at what it's supposed to be good at - scaring vehicles. A meltagun doesn't make an infantry squad a threat per se, but if you have enough of them then you can take a decent toll on enemy armour in a way that you can't with plasmas. In my opinion, obviously.

I wouldn't buy plasma for a BS3 model unless I could be reasonably certain that those plasmas would get a reroll to hit. (Yes, that goes for Tau plasma rifles, too.)

The only exception are Inquisitorial Acolytes, and that's because they buy their plasma guns at 10 points each and I can take them without the rest of the squad.

42 points for 3 plasma guns? Sure. 65 points for 1 plasma gun and 9 lasguns? Pass!

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'd also like to point out that easysauce's comparison wasn't a fair one. 3 plasma guns are 45 points, not 65 points. So the actual comparison is 9 las guns to 3 plasma guns, not 13 las guns.

On topic, I don't think I'd ever run an infantry squad without a special weapon. Throwing melta or plasma or hell even flamers on Guardsmen can get you so much more mileage out of that squad.

you HAVE to pay for dudes to fire those guns... 15pts for the gun 5 pts for the guy, do the math..

its perfectly fair... though I think I should have said 12 lasguns vs 3 plasma as it should be 60pts for 3 plasma dudes IN A VACUUM

plasma is a specialized thing, thats is AWESOME when used for its proper NICHE, namely in veteran squads, or other bs 4 models, but generally not on regular infantry.

the simple fact that you pay 15 pts for a plasma on a bs 3 or a bs 4 guy makes the choice rather easy.

the whole point, is that against most opponents the las is actually better, and you have BETTER places to spend that 15 pts for a plasma on (like veterans),

and in 100% of match ups, 12 guardmen at 60 pts, is four times as durable as 3 plasma guard at 60 pts.


you need to factor in the fact that your plasma will die faster, and due to its own shooting... resilience is more important in many scenarios, not JUST the added dps against xenos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:


So literally the only time 13 lasguns outguns 3 plasma is against T3 4+ models. (or worse armor save, obviously)

yeah literally NEVER,

unless you ever play against, tyranids, orks, tau, eldar, other guard, ect

or when you use FRSRF on blobs...

or that a bunch of the stuff that the plasmas hits has ++'s that totally skew your calculation

How good are flamers in infantry squads then? And in PCS?

If your not taking Plasma or Meltas on your Veterans your wrong . Don't spend points on BS4 and Three Special weapons slots if your going to use lasguns .

Infantry Squads are meh in the special weapon department most folks I see blob them

 Banzaimash wrote:
How good are flamers in infantry squads then? And in PCS?

Flamers are a bit situational given that defensively they're okay given the auto D3 S4 hits but it requires your guy with the special weapon to be exposed to use it properly AND it forces you to be in charge range which is typically an area you want to avoid given their lacklustre close combat skills. I would say they don't really synergize with a footslogging guardsmen squad very much since you don't have the mobility to get into position to use against packed units and it is short ranged compared to the optimal range of 12-24" of their lasguns while also providing a meagre boost in anti-infantry fire which the army already does fine in. If you really want to ignore cover weaponry the colossus, hellhound and LR Eradicator are all more viable choices in doing that role effectively.

PCS squads are the only case where I would see them being used efficiently seeing as how they're only BS3, and are able to take 4 of them so you can really flambé a unit while rolling around in a chimera.

I never leave home without special weapons on my squads, flashlights only go so far and when majority of armies have decent armor saves the flashlights only hope is to try to frfsrf to drown them in wounds. Have i seen lasguns kill a few termies, yes, but only cause luck and slowed placement.

Plas or Melta i feel are the better of the options, but you could argue flamers as being ok. Never been a fan of grenade launchers or snipers tho.

(special note: This advice is for vets, INF platoons can spam all day cause they are cheap, horrible shots that need to spam)

 Banzaimash wrote:
How good are flamers in infantry squads then? And in PCS?

The only time I used flamers in infantry squads was during a City of Death game where the ignore cover rule served to at least be decent in the cover filled board. In a standard setting, it is mostly situational, and I would prefer getting a grenade launcher than a flamer as the range and flexibility serves more often than that one time you get charged (and that is, if your flamer guy didn't bought it yet or the squad ran off)

I do run a PCS squad with 3 flamer, usually I hide it behind cover so when whatever unti gets in range for some nasty melee action, I pop out and cram it; of course, with only Str4 and AP5, it's not that good short of against other Guardsmen, Orks or 'Nids, but usually manage to steer off fire and the inevitable melee off my infantry squads.

U're doing strange math on a lazgun vs plazma arguement. Just remember when was the last time you were able to shoot at something with 3+ or better willingly coming close to your point-holder squad having NO cover or invul? U see, there's a reason why quantity is better than quality now. Everyone's having cover saves or invuls. So if u're counting what's better vs teq, pls take into consideration their 3++.
Plazma is great and quite useful when u're sure it's gona meet it's proper target. I'm just telling it's not an auto-include. In my case, those 15 pts are 2.5 moar boyz on the front vs a plazma-gun which has a decent chance of shooting less than a few times in a whole fight.
People sometimes take some flamers on blobs cause of overwatch. They're relatively cheap but basically are d3 hits on overwatch. It's a rare occasion when they're gona work full potential.

Flamers are only really worth it on squads with special mobility, like stormtroopers coming in out of deepstrike with aerial assault, or a squad hopping out of a valkyrie into your opponent's deployment zone.

Otherwise in this rules edition it's just too difficult to get a model with a weapon with THAT short range (and that can't shoot over its own models, so sort of has to be in the front row) to survive long enough to ever get to fire it.

Outside of the aforementioned exception, I think I'd only ever field flamers on something that I wanted to be relatively overwatch-proof. Though I can't really think of any good examples of this.

Perhaps in the new open-topped baneblade...

 Ailaros wrote:


Perhaps in the new open-topped baneblade...

You mean shooting flamers out the back? I thought that was only for embarking/disembarking purposes that its open topped.

 Solosam47 wrote:
You mean shooting flamers out the back? I thought that was only for embarking/disembarking purposes that its open topped.

It's open-topped for everything but taking damage (and doesn't have any defined fire points). So feel free to load it up with flamer PCS/SWS and drop a million templates on something from anywhere on that giant hull.

 Grimskul wrote:

I presume you don't actually play an all-lasgun only army with no tank support or heavy/special weapons?

Ha ha no, that would be crazy, but kinda viable. Massed infantry platoons with commisars, grenades and melta bombs would be nearly impossible to kill, at least in the current meta. Impossible to keep away from, you could easily outflank two of the units as well, and converge with bayonets and glory.

I always assume I'm giving my squads priority targets. I keep lots of lascannons around, so big stuff falls all the time. When I don't triple deathstrike behind an aegis line, I take 10 gk termis, an extra inquisitor and vindicare assassin. Works great both ways.

Also remember, the current edition is loaded with enemy MC. Others take stuff to kill big nasty targets, not hordes. If you suddenly have lotsa guardsmen and nothing else, you win many more games that would be expected just because of how the meta is. Not every unit has to be able to kill MC and/or tanks, sometimes simply being there can win you games.

xruslanx wrote:
frfsrf can double that lasgun damage at >12'', and increase by 50% at <12%.

If you'd continued reading the thread I ran the FRFSRF numbers and they aren't double.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:


So literally the only time 13 lasguns outguns 3 plasma is against T3 4+ models. (or worse armor save, obviously)

yeah literally NEVER,

unless you ever play against, tyranids, orks, tau, eldar, other guard, ect

or when you use FRSRF on blobs...

or that a bunch of the stuff that the plasmas hits has ++'s that totally skew your calculation

True - I didn't look at invuls. 1.245*.66=0.82 with plasma against a 5++.

Doesn't change the fact that against the vast majority of codexes, plasma has more uses.