Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

You could give them back the option to take certain USRs like they could in 4th edition.

Chaos terminators should be about 28 points, with 3 points for combi-weapons. Loyalist terminators should be about 33 points a model,

So wait, Pfists are about 5 points here? Chaos is still getting pretty shafted here.

I was thinking more of about 3 points.

But then I think the power weapon flexibility of Chaos Terminators as an advantage, axe, sword or mace whereas the loyalists are stuck with power fists.

I'm pretty sure 5 Chaos terminators with combi-plasma will kill a bunch of loyalists anyway. Shooting is much better than assault.

Tda adds +1 to wounds characteristic.

Lets compare a Tac squad with a heavy bolter, plasma gun & a Sarge with a bolter, all mounted in a drop pod. The terminators have an assault cannon. The terminators cost more.
-With a DP the Tac squad lands turn one. The Tac terms don't.
-DS with a DP is much more accurate and safe compared to termie TPing.
-Once you've arrived on the table DP Tac squads can disembark making them safer from template weapons. The termies would have to Run for the same effect, thereby giving up their ability to shoot.
-At 12" to 24" the tac sqd pumps out 8 bolter shots, 1 plas shot, snap firing HB and a snap firing SB. The termies technicaly fire nothing round one if they are TPing, but for arguments sake they fire 8 bolter shots and 3 AC shots. The DP is a better delivery system and will likely land them in the 0" to 12" sweet spot adding another 8 bolter shots and an additional plas shot. Thereby surpassing the Tac termies in firepower.
-Because of the superior DP deep strike you can get the Tac squad to cover supplying them with a save against ap3+. Coming close to the termies 5++. Although there save is 3+ there are twice as many of them.
-In assault the the termies get 8 PF attacks and 2 PS attacks. The marines get 10 basic attacks, they do have krak grenades for tough targets though. Im gonna give that one to the termies. Although termies don't have grenades so they could lose some initiative against opponents in cover.
-The Tac squad can combat sqd into to units for msu goodness.
-The tac squad is scoring.
-The tac suad is Troops, and doesn't take up the more useful elite slot.

These are the reasons I think Tac termies suck, and I would like to fix them. These are my ideas:
-Give Storm Bolters faux-rending, like shuriken catapults have. Make it only for Crux Terminatus pattern SBs. Basically only those carries by termies.
-Let Tac termies take 2 hvy weapons per 5 men.
-Let the sarge take extra CC weapon choices. Any power weapon instead of just a PS. Also LCs, Relic Blade and SS for +5 points or TH and SS for +5 points. Thereby giving them some more CC oomf, and a little tanking ability with the SS 3++
-Give the termie sarge the Dev squad sarge buffing ablitys.
-Reduce the cost of CMLs and ACs to 15. Reduce the cost of all termies to 30 points, but +5 for TH and SS.

This way you could make a Tac termie squad with a Sarge who throws some shooting buffs, has a TH+SS combo, 2 ACs, and a little bit better shooting from their now 6 SB shots with their faux rending. That way when they make the unreliable, almost dangerous TP deep strike (maybe on round 2)they show up pumping out some real firepower with the chance of the sarge tanking the counter fire/charge in the front. All for 185 points. This would make them on par points wise with a regular Tac squad. Given the various trade offs between model count, scoring ability and foc slots Id say that's about right for the vaunted terminators.

/Scout Terminators/

That is all

On the face of it the idea of scout terminators seems ludicrous. Terminators with bp & a knife...

But taking the ball & running with it, Id say why not Scout instead of DS? Maybe outflank?

I liked the old 3rd Ed Deep Strike rules, where you placed a large blast marker, scattered it, then placed the arriving models under the marker. It allowed a 5 man TDA squad to be a little spead out upon arrival. With that in mind, a free 2" move upon arrival in addition to the normal 6th Ed DS rules for TDA only units would help a bit in removing the liability of not arriving by Drop Pod.

SJ

Everyone is talking about changing the rules to break things that have been constant since 3rd edition. Put simply, the easiest way to fix Terminators is to reduce the cost by ~5 ppm and *possibly* allow 2x heavy weapons per 5 men. This would make CSM Terminator hordes really interesting actually...

Imperial heavy weapons for terminators are overcosted, so letting terminators double down on weapons that already are overcosted makes your list worse, not better.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Everyone is talking about changing the rules to break things that have been constant since 3rd edition. Put simply, the easiest way to fix Terminators is to reduce the cost by ~5 ppm and *possibly* allow 2x heavy weapons per 5 men. This would make CSM Terminator hordes really interesting actually...

Except things havn't been constant, deep strike rules have changed quite a bit since it's more glorious 3rd edition days, specially chaos terminators but this aint about that specifically.

Also nobody buys the terminator weapons on CSM, both are overcosted and kinda wimpy.

I'd like to go back to mix and match Assault / Tactical weapon load Temrinator squads makes more sense

Make them:

Toughness 5
Wounds 2
Storm bolters assault 2/heavy 4 shred
Assault cannons heavy 6
Cyclone heavy 4
Sgt can take wargear

Points go up a bit maybe ~45ppm, could stay the same tbh they are pretty bad now.

Mike712 wrote:
Make them:

Toughness 5
Wounds 2
Storm bolters assault 2/heavy 4 shred
Assault cannons heavy 6
Cyclone heavy 4
Sgt can take wargear

Points go up a bit maybe ~45ppm, could stay the same tbh they are pretty bad now.

You are joking right? Those stats warrant a 60+ point per model cost (since they'd be paladins +1 basically, and they are 55),

 Carnage43 wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
Make them:

Toughness 5
Wounds 2
Storm bolters assault 2/heavy 4 shred
Assault cannons heavy 6
Cyclone heavy 4
Sgt can take wargear

Points go up a bit maybe ~45ppm, could stay the same tbh they are pretty bad now.

You are joking right? Those stats warrant a 60+ point per model cost (since they'd be paladins +1 basically, and they are 55),

Paladins get WS5 AND a force weapon and even they are overcosted in this edition, without any wound allocation tricks they are quite naff, I've been running pure draigowing recently and they don't work well since every 2 wounds means a dead pally.

In 6th paladins could be 40 points and not even be broken when compared to other stuff.

You can't just balance a units points around it's stats, terminators are slow, short range, difficult and expensive to transport and lack focus meaning they should pay less for the stats they get in an edition where those shortcoings are a major issue.

Mike712 wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:

Mike712 wrote:
Make them:

Toughness 5
Wounds 2
Storm bolters assault 2/heavy 4 shred
Assault cannons heavy 6
Cyclone heavy 4
Sgt can take wargear

Points go up a bit maybe ~45ppm, could stay the same tbh they are pretty bad now.

You are joking right? Those stats warrant a 60+ point per model cost (since they'd be paladins +1 basically, and they are 55),

Paladins get WS5 AND a force weapon and even they are overcosted in this edition, without any wound allocation tricks they are quite naff, I've been running pure draigowing recently and they don't work well since every 2 wounds means a dead pally.

In 6th paladins could be 40 points and not even be broken when compared to other stuff.

You can't just balance a units points around it's stats, terminators are slow, short range, difficult and expensive to transport and lack focus meaning they should pay less for the stats they get in an edition where those shortcoings are a major issue.

Look, I don't disagree that terminators of all sorts are bad, but paladins or pretty much the least bad of all the terminators. Going from a paladins to your Uber terminator would warrant those 5 points, since a powerfist and force weapon are roughly equal, the WS bonus, psy powers and aegis offset the storm bolter upgrade, and you are paying those last 5 points for the toughness boost. Seems about right. You could argue that paladins should be 40-45 points, but these uber terminators would still have to be ~5pts more.

The problem with going to both T5 AND W2 means they you have a double stacking increase in survivability. The wound bump alone doubles their survivability against small arms and plasma, but combined with the toughness bump not only are you FURTHER resilient to small arms, you are also nearly twice as survivable against heavy weapons, since you have a S10 instant death threshold. This reduces the effectiveness of S6-S9 AP2 fire in half, and the toughness and wound bump reduces the effectiveness of small arms by something like 66%. I mean, terminators are bad, but you are almost tripling their staying power....that's overkill to say the least.

Compare your uber terminators to Assault Centurions. Both would be T5, 2+ save. Uber termies have the 5+ invul so win the staying power "race". Your assault 4 (essentially, as terminators are relentless) shred storm bolter matches pretty well against the hurricane bolters of the cents, call the ranged firepower a draw. S9 AP2 I4 melee for the cents, S8 AP2 I1 for the Uber termies....solid win for the cents. Terminators can run, deepstrike, and take less spots in a land raider. It's a fairly even match all things considered, and you want to have the terminators cost two thirds of the cents? 5 points less, maybe, but not 20.

Which brings us back to the problem that making terminators competitive requires basically a rewrite of the entire core game.

Numero uno, AP2 has to become far less common, restricted to single shot anti-tank weapons like lascannons and lances and unwieldy close combat weapons. That in turn means that 2+ save monstrous creatures need a reduction in power to balance their increased survivability. Even then volume of fire still eats terminators, so we increase the points cost of multi-shot weapons to make sure there're less of them on the table. Then, because hordes are suddenly stronger because people have less shots to kill them we have to increase their cost so horde numbers are reduced.

Then we have to Squat the Tau just on principle.

Make them able to do back flips.

By doing away with the AP system. Its ridiculously rock paper scissors instead of the more moderate armour degrading system of Warhammer Fantasy

It's been mentioned time and time again but I still believe the best answer to improving Terminators is by giving them 2 wounds.

If you aren't managing to keep models with a 2+/5++ alive, the issue isn't the terminators. Even with AP 2 spam there is only so much even Tau can put on the board and those same weapons are much in demand for taking on vehicles and monstrous creatures. As a general rule I'm probably shooting at those first. A little line of sight blocking terrain and cover, combined with me having to prioritize my shots and you have a few turns to close the gap. A land raider or storm raven will likely buy you a few more.

For Tacticals I could see making them closer to Wolf Guard Terminators (35 ish points a model, power weapon of choice instead of a power fist). The letting everyone upgrade mix and match style with combi weapons, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, storm shields and chain fists being available.

I'd let the Cyclone Missle Launchers be taken in addition to rather than instead of the other special weapons and increase the list of special weapons to include multimeltas and heavy bolters. Maybe reduce the AssCan and Cyclone by 5 points too.

Assault, mostly there I'd go cheaper, give a Chain Fist option and let them take Cyclones. Possibly a grenade harness too. Of I might just say my changes to Tacticals made them potentially assaulty enough and forget assault terminators exist as a seperate unit.

But no, even against Tau, terminators remain one of those units you need to focus a large portion of your army on to kill. This makes them useful because they spare the rest of that army that firepower, or because there are too many threats on the board at once they never have the necissary power leveled against them and they get to jump in and do the damage. You can't rely on them to just work without support anymore though.

I'm gonna agree that extra toughness or wounds is a bit much. A reduction in the cost of men & weapons alongside an increase in weapon selection seems good. I think the heavy weapon set for termies would be complimented by multi meltas . Maybe shred for SBs and CBs.

These are all old ideas seen in old threads that predate the current SM codex. Why didn't GW make ANY of these changes?

I think its because there's already a lot of termi models out there & they wouldn't have sold as many boxes even though the mark up on them is huge. $50 for 5 with painfuly few options in the box.

To do their job, terminators need to be survivable. This means introducing some mechanic to make them not die horribly to massed small arms fire. Plasma being AP 2 is also a serious, serious problem for terminators.

Jefffar wrote:
If you aren't managing to keep models with a 2+/5++ alive, the issue isn't the terminators. Even with AP 2 spam there is only so much even Tau can put on the board and those same weapons are much in demand for taking on vehicles and monstrous creatures. As a general rule I'm probably shooting at those first. A little line of sight blocking terrain and cover, combined with me having to prioritize my shots and you have a few turns to close the gap. A land raider or storm raven will likely buy you a few more.

For Tacticals I could see making them closer to Wolf Guard Terminators (35 ish points a model, power weapon of choice instead of a power fist). The letting everyone upgrade mix and match style with combi weapons, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, storm shields and chain fists being available.

I'd let the Cyclone Missle Launchers be taken in addition to rather than instead of the other special weapons and increase the list of special weapons to include multimeltas and heavy bolters. Maybe reduce the AssCan and Cyclone by 5 points too.

Assault, mostly there I'd go cheaper, give a Chain Fist option and let them take Cyclones. Possibly a grenade harness too. Of I might just say my changes to Tacticals made them potentially assaulty enough and forget assault terminators exist as a seperate unit.

But no, even against Tau, terminators remain one of those units you need to focus a large portion of your army on to kill. This makes them useful because they spare the rest of that army that firepower, or because there are too many threats on the board at once they never have the necissary power leveled against them and they get to jump in and do the damage. You can't rely on them to just work without support anymore though.

Is that meant to be funny? Tau can immediately kill them. By immediately, I mean first turn you WILL have a S8 AP2 large blast put over the top of them which ignores cover. Terminators are bad. Hell, even a modest gunline will kill them easily.

Eyjio wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
If you aren't managing to keep models with a 2+/5++ alive, the issue isn't the terminators. Even with AP 2 spam there is only so much even Tau can put on the board and those same weapons are much in demand for taking on vehicles and monstrous creatures. As a general rule I'm probably shooting at those first. A little line of sight blocking terrain and cover, combined with me having to prioritize my shots and you have a few turns to close the gap. A land raider or storm raven will likely buy you a few more.

For Tacticals I could see making them closer to Wolf Guard Terminators (35 ish points a model, power weapon of choice instead of a power fist). The letting everyone upgrade mix and match style with combi weapons, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, storm shields and chain fists being available.

I'd let the Cyclone Missle Launchers be taken in addition to rather than instead of the other special weapons and increase the list of special weapons to include multimeltas and heavy bolters. Maybe reduce the AssCan and Cyclone by 5 points too.

Assault, mostly there I'd go cheaper, give a Chain Fist option and let them take Cyclones. Possibly a grenade harness too. Of I might just say my changes to Tacticals made them potentially assaulty enough and forget assault terminators exist as a seperate unit.

But no, even against Tau, terminators remain one of those units you need to focus a large portion of your army on to kill. This makes them useful because they spare the rest of that army that firepower, or because there are too many threats on the board at once they never have the necissary power leveled against them and they get to jump in and do the damage. You can't rely on them to just work without support anymore though.

Is that meant to be funny? Tau can immediately kill them. By immediately, I mean first turn you WILL have a S8 AP2 large blast put over the top of them which ignores cover. Terminators are bad. Hell, even a modest gunline will kill them easily.

Even back in 5th back when plasma rifles were on nearly every crisis suit, tau could deal with terminators well because they always had broadsides/crisis suits.

They had issues with Assault terminators that got close, but they could still JSJ well enough to maneuver them.

Late to the party, and haven't read all five pages. I did read about making Terminators more like Paladins. That sounds like a more viable idea. Not exactly like Paladins, but the simple addition of an extra wound for two wounds total would make Terminators much, much more resilient.

Two wounds would allow them to weather all the shooting when they DS, make them more of a tar pit unit in close combat, and make them a little more less susceptible to anti-close combat units.

They would still fear P-fists/T-hammers, Instant Death, plasma, and meltaguns. They would just last a little longer vs. everything else in the game.

This solution doesn't change the entire unit, and could easily be FAQ'd without reprinting every codex or waiting for a new edition.

 Red Marine wrote:

These are all old ideas seen in old threads that predate the current SM codex. Why didn't GW make ANY of these changes?

I think its because there's already a lot of termi models out there & they wouldn't have sold as many boxes even though the mark up on them is huge. $50 for 5 with painfuly few options in the box.

Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Games Workshop balance their game to a casual standard. This basically means that as long as the points costs are within about 30% of being "correct" then it's good enough for them. Competitive players, and players that are even REMOTELY good at high school level mathematics want the game balanced to within 1% or 2% of "correct".

Games Workshop's "play-testing" department plays completely non-optimized lists, and that leads to a lot of things looking balanced, as the level of competitiveness they are tested in isn't really high enough for them to really get a feel for how bad they truly are.

Allow double heavies for Loyalists. BT 2xCML or 2xAC Terminators were perfectly fine (if eye-wateringly expensive) in the old 'dex.

Doubling down on bad weapons won't make terminators good. Both the AC and ML are bad weapons.

Jefffar wrote:
If you aren't managing to keep models with a 2+/5++ alive, the issue isn't the terminators. Even with AP 2 spam there is only so much even Tau can put on the board and those same weapons are much in demand for taking on vehicles and monstrous creatures. As a general rule I'm probably shooting at those first. A little line of sight blocking terrain and cover, combined with me having to prioritize my shots and you have a few turns to close the gap. A land raider or storm raven will likely buy you a few more.

For Tacticals I could see making them closer to Wolf Guard Terminators (35 ish points a model, power weapon of choice instead of a power fist). The letting everyone upgrade mix and match style with combi weapons, lightning claws, power fists, thunder hammers, storm shields and chain fists being available.

I'd let the Cyclone Missle Launchers be taken in addition to rather than instead of the other special weapons and increase the list of special weapons to include multimeltas and heavy bolters. Maybe reduce the AssCan and Cyclone by 5 points too.

Assault, mostly there I'd go cheaper, give a Chain Fist option and let them take Cyclones. Possibly a grenade harness too. Of I might just say my changes to Tacticals made them potentially assaulty enough and forget assault terminators exist as a seperate unit.

I wonder what you play.

It is generally known that terminators are useless compared to the extra bang you can bring using power armoured warriors. This is not opinion-time. These are facts. And no one is better at killing them than Tau. It sounds like you're just afraid that someone at GW will hear people and actually create a viable threat for you at some point.

Jefffar wrote:

But no, even against Tau, terminators remain one of those units you need to focus a large portion of your army on to kill. This makes them useful because they spare the rest of that army that firepower, or because there are too many threats on the board at once they never have the necissary power leveled against them and they get to jump in and do the damage. You can't rely on them to just work without support anymore though.

It's funny, because my Tau friend used these exact arguments, and he was incredibly sure of them... until he started up a Nurgle CSM army.
Then he realised that if you field terminators, that's a huge bunch of points in one place to be destroyed at will. They are not a bullet sponge. They are a point sink. "Too many threats on the board?" For Tau? When I've used my points on making Terminator units? Are you trying to be funny?