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I'd probably say, once per game a squad of terminators can attack in close combat with their powerfists ignoring the unwieldy rule.

Deep strike in, immune to interceptor, unleash their firepower, opponents turn, they activate their armour save re-roll, next turn they fire and charge into their target, striking at initiative with their powerfists.

A very very very strong counter unit, but after the first two turns they lose their buffs and become their normal selves, except the FNP business for a slight boost.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I'd probably say, once per game a squad of terminators can attack in close combat with their powerfists ignoring the unwieldy rule.

Deep strike in, immune to interceptor, unleash their firepower, opponents turn, they activate their armour save re-roll, next turn they fire and charge into their target, striking at initiative with their powerfists.

A very very very strong counter unit, but after the first two turns they lose their buffs and become their normal selves, except the FNP business for a slight boost.

Now that is interesting...perhaps make it so Relentless units don't strike at I1 when using Unwieldy weapons?

1+ armor save

Sorry, I am not being productive today. Just ignore me.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Models in terminator Armour can choose to double tap their storm bolter, or fire it as normal with sternguard ammo, models in terminator Armour have FNP, models in terminator Armour are immune to interceptor shots and lastly, a terminator squad may choose one turn per game to re-roll failed saves (must be declared at the start of an opponents turn).

As I calculate:
AP 3+
S1: 1/54 WPS
S2: 1/54 WPS
S3: 1/27 WPS
S4: 1/18 WPS
S5: 2/27 WPS
S6: 5/54 WPS
S7: 5/54 WPS
S8: 5/36 WPS
S9: 5/36 WPS
S10: 5/36 WPS

AP 2-
S1: 1/9 WPS
S2: 1/9 WPS
S3: 2/9 WPS
S4: 3/9 WPS
S5: 4/9 WPS
S6: 5/9 WPS
S7: 5/9 WPS
S8: 5/6 WPS
S9: 5/6 WPS
S10: 5/6 WPS

I think 99% of us agree they need a points drop & an extra heavy weapon at the bare minimum. Let's say 5 termies & 2 ACs for 200 points?

As for their toughness its a little divided: some saying extra toughness &/or wounds, while more are suggesting some help in the invulnerable save area.

The terminators movement still needs a little discussion IMHO. I like the idea of TPing rendering termies immune to Intercept. TPing is suposed to be THEE most rapid deployment. There should be something more than just normal DS to it. But maybe more? I think its unique (sorta) to termiess, & TPing into the middle of an army is part of why termies need TDA. It also goes well with the suggestions of one time buffs. The idea being that termies come in hard & have a better chance than most to pull it off. The other option is the Land Raider. Maybe a tiny points reduction, like assault marines get?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I'd probably say, once per game a squad of terminators can attack in close combat with their powerfists ignoring the unwieldy rule.

Deep strike in, immune to interceptor, unleash their firepower, opponents turn, they activate their armour save re-roll, next turn they fire and charge into their target, striking at initiative with their powerfists.

A very very very strong counter unit, but after the first two turns they lose their buffs and become their normal selves, except the FNP business for a slight boost.

Now that is interesting...perhaps make it so Relentless units don't strike at I1 when using Unwieldy weapons?

If you take into account the other buffs I suggested with the one per game Armour reroll, and FNP, I wouldn't want Thunder Hammer termies to be buffed too much, hence why make it for powerfists only, it buffs them once a game...

I see it as giving them adequate enough buffs to shoot, survive and then assault after deep striking to attack their target, which should be some big unit in the opposing army... It's fluffy at least, called in to tackle the big nasties as an elite counter unit.

Just take a good amount of the AP2 in the game and make it AP3.

The only thing that actually solves it.

Doesn't solve lack of offense or weight of fire.

Martel732 wrote:
Doesn't solve lack of offense or weight of fire.

They are acceptable at offense. Powerfist on almost every model means it hits hard, and it trades the durability of a 3++ for the utility of ranged weapons when required. An additional heavy weapon, perhaps one more shot with their stormbolters, would leave it at a good place.

Weight of fire would be much less threatening if there is less plasma, rending etc out there.

(Eldar, I am looking at you.)

Overall, the issue is with everything else except the Terminators, not the Terminators themselves.

Their offense is miserable. From a shooting respect, they can be practically ignored. Yes, power fists are scary, but the delivery of said power fists is expensive or unreliable.

By weight of fire, I mean specifically things that they get their armor save against, but just can't make enough saves.

Martel732 wrote:
Their offense is miserable. From a shooting respect, they can be practically ignored. Yes, power fists are scary, but the delivery of said power fists is expensive or unreliable.

By weight of fire, I mean specifically things that they get their armor save against, but just can't make enough saves.

Leave the points the same, give FNP 4+ and adding an extra heavy weapon would probably be the best option for increasing tacitcal terminator efficiency in a simple manner. The FNP on assault terminators would give a nice boost too, since their biggest deficiency is still resistance to weight of fire. FNP should also work with chaos terminators too. This is also something that could easily be implemented via FAQ/Errata.

In keeping with the idea of a sudden arrival and a powerful first blow, how about they get Shrouded when they arrive & Ignores Cover? The flash of light they arrive in makes it hard to see them & the sudden arrival means people can't react fast enough.

Anymore thoughts on how to help the stormbolter? Most people seem to say more shots. There's also been a few votes for Shred. The overall fear seems to be buffing the Grey Knights. We could just make it for TDA, Crux Terminatus pattern SBs.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their offense is miserable. From a shooting respect, they can be practically ignored. Yes, power fists are scary, but the delivery of said power fists is expensive or unreliable.

By weight of fire, I mean specifically things that they get their armor save against, but just can't make enough saves.

Leave the points the same, give FNP 4+ and adding an extra heavy weapon would probably be the best option for increasing tacitcal terminator efficiency in a simple manner. The FNP on assault terminators would give a nice boost too, since their biggest deficiency is still resistance to weight of fire. FNP should also work with chaos terminators too. This is also something that could easily be implemented via FAQ/Errata.

Just the regular FNP (5+) should be fine.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their offense is miserable. From a shooting respect, they can be practically ignored. Yes, power fists are scary, but the delivery of said power fists is expensive or unreliable.

By weight of fire, I mean specifically things that they get their armor save against, but just can't make enough saves.

Leave the points the same, give FNP 4+ and adding an extra heavy weapon would probably be the best option for increasing tacitcal terminator efficiency in a simple manner. The FNP on assault terminators would give a nice boost too, since their biggest deficiency is still resistance to weight of fire. FNP should also work with chaos terminators too. This is also something that could easily be implemented via FAQ/Errata.

Just the regular FNP (5+) should be fine.

Not really. My BA have access to FNP terminators and they don't really hold up that well. Having only 5 W in the whole squad is just absolute murder. Well, 6 including the priest. Tau still cripple the unit with a single pie plate. And Eldar keep going "LOL your defenses are funny, little marine!"

This whole thread can be looked at this way: I hate the units with 2++/2+ rerollable saves, but that's what it takes to be truly durable in the environment that the Eldar and Tau have created. Without at least similar durability, terminators will never fit their fluff nor price per model. Note that the units with 2++/2+ rerollable are also fast and deadly in HTH.

Martel732 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their offense is miserable. From a shooting respect, they can be practically ignored. Yes, power fists are scary, but the delivery of said power fists is expensive or unreliable.

By weight of fire, I mean specifically things that they get their armor save against, but just can't make enough saves.

Leave the points the same, give FNP 4+ and adding an extra heavy weapon would probably be the best option for increasing tacitcal terminator efficiency in a simple manner. The FNP on assault terminators would give a nice boost too, since their biggest deficiency is still resistance to weight of fire. FNP should also work with chaos terminators too. This is also something that could easily be implemented via FAQ/Errata.

Just the regular FNP (5+) should be fine.

Not really. My BA have access to FNP terminators and they don't really hold up that well. Having only 5 W in the whole squad is just absolute murder. Well, 6 including the priest. Tau still cripple the unit with a single pie plate. And Eldar keep going "LOL your defenses are funny, little marine!"

This whole thread can be looked at this way: I hate the units with 2++/2+ rerollable saves, but that's what it takes to be truly durable in the environment that the Eldar and Tau have created. Without at least similar durability, terminators will never fit their fluff nor price per model. Note that the units with 2++/2+ rerollable are also fast and deadly in HTH.

My point was that a 4+ FNP doubles their survivability against non-S8+ weapons (otherwise none as anti-tank weapons).

To compete against Eldar/Tau, they're going to need even more than 4+ FNP. They still evaporate to the pie plate of doom and the endless ranks of Kroot snipers. We don't need to get into the pseudo-rending Eldar shurikens.

You know, if you want a T5, W2, 2+ unit that delivers heavy firepower from turn 1, there's a Marine unit for that already. It's called Devastator Centurions.

Also, people keep complaining about the Terminator costing more than twice as much as a Tactical Marine, they seem to forget that the Tactical Marine doesn't have the same stat line. If you are Looking at the Tactical Squad, the Veteran Sergeant is the one with the closest statline to the Terminator. A quick bit of math clocks him in at 24 points. Which means that for 16 points, the Tactical Terminator picks up Terminator Armour, A Storm Bolter and a Power Fist. That's actually a pretty good deal seeing as it'd cost 30 points to give that same Sgt a Powerfist and a Storm Bolter without the Terminator Armour.

Jefffar wrote:
You know, if you want a T5, W2, 2+ unit that delivers heavy firepower from turn 1, there's a Marine unit for that already. It's called Devastator Centurions.

Also, people keep complaining about the Terminator costing more than twice as much as a Tactical Marine, they seem to forget that the Tactical Marine doesn't have the same stat line. If you are Looking at the Tactical Squad, the Veteran Sergeant is the one with the closest statline to the Terminator. A quick bit of math clocks him in at 24 points. Which means that for 16 points, the Tactical Terminator picks up Terminator Armour, A Storm Bolter and a Power Fist. That's actually a pretty good deal seeing as it'd cost 30 points to give that same Sgt a Powerfist and a Storm Bolter without the Terminator Armour.

But it's not a good deal because the terminator doesn't play like a 40 pt model. The sum of those parts you described is less than the numerical sum. The tactical marine doesn't even play like a 14 pt model imo. That makes the terminator even more overcosted.

Yes, it still pisses me off that GW made cents instead of fixing terminators.

Martel732 wrote:

But it's not a good deal because the terminator doesn't play like a 40 pt model. The sum of those parts you described is less than the numerical sum. The tactical marine doesn't even play like a 14 pt model imo. That makes the terminator even more overcosted.

But they do, they play like a 40pt *Marine*. People need to get over this idea that space marines are masters of all disciplines held in awe by all the races of the galaxy just like the plebs of the Imperium see them, They are an army of generalists. It's part of why I have no interest in collecting them.
Fluff has no place in balanced rules at the best of times but even if it did a citizen of the IoM may see a marine as a god of war but to a Nid he's a chewier breakfast and to an Eldar he's a brawnier, semi-evolved roided up ape.

"Tactical" marines and "Tactical" Terminators are designed around being active in every phase of the game. They shoot decently, but not with the punch of shooty specialists, they melee solidly, but not with the punch of assault specialists. If you are looking at having an army of specialists I would suggest you rethink your faction choice because you are trying to make them something they aren't. That is the Eldar design philosophy.

At S4 with an AP above 2 it takes 12 *hits* to pierce TDA or 9 double tapping BS4 bolters, that's 126pts of marines, so the problem is not basic weapon fire. Hell, 30 Ork Shoota boyz going full dakka (180pts) will only kill 1 and a half.
Special weapons are now easier than ever to remove thanks to precision shots, wound allocation and barrage sniping but yes they can kill you, marines can die, if one side sustains virtually no casualties then it was a terrible game.

There are 2 races that specialize in killing elites (and the Tau aren't that great at it, it's generally overcharged Riptide blasts that pierce PA and better) currently enjoying their heyday with 3 of the *horde* races, Nids, Orks and IG, currently waiting for their update that will potentially makes AP2 less valuable that weight of fire. Add in the fact the competitive microcosm of small elite armies that play fast is hardly something that should be held up as the source of balance calculations and terminators are by and large fine.

Now I certainly wouldn't mind them gaining access to 2 specials per 5, they are elites after all and Sternguard get the same ratio I believe, but all this talk of 30pt, T5/6, 4+ FNP and the like is madness in my opinion. A 2+ save is a very polarizing thing, if you have AP2 brought to bear and can bring them down to a 5++/3++ it's fine but if all you can fire at them is AP3+ then they will shrug off vast numbers of hits even assuming how far a little luck can take you if all you need is a 2+.

What I'd suggest is, that terminator armor lowers the attacking weapons AP by 1.That, and+1T, so they don't die as easely to the bolters and such.

That, or a rather dramatical points reduction.

OR, Terminator armor grants+1W. And before people start yelling about centurions, I'd be more than happy to sacrifice them to fix the terminators, fixing several armies, rather than just leaving a unit intact. Besides, they still can pump out their obscene amount of firepower, and even they could benefit from+1W, since they cost as much as a truck filled with cocaine and still have no invuln. Oh, and they are a slower than a vindicator, ffs.

vWreN wrote:
What I'd suggest is, that terminator armor lowers the attacking weapons AP by 1.That, and+1T, so they don't die as easely to the bolters and such.

That, or a rather dramatical points reduction.

OR, Terminator armor grants+1W. And before people start yelling about centurions, I'd be more than happy to sacrifice them to fix the terminators, fixing several armies, rather than just leaving a unit intact. Besides, they still can pump out their obscene amount of firepower, and even they could benefit from+1W, since they cost as much as a truck filled with cocaine and still have no invuln. Oh, and they are a slower than a vindicator, ffs.

Well put, have an exalt.

In my opinion giving termies 1 more wound would do it. same points, same everything. Just one more wound.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But it's not a good deal because the terminator doesn't play like a 40 pt model. The sum of those parts you described is less than the numerical sum. The tactical marine doesn't even play like a 14 pt model imo. That makes the terminator even more overcosted.

But they do, they play like a 40pt *Marine*. People need to get over this idea that space marines are masters of all disciplines held in awe by all the races of the galaxy just like the plebs of the Imperium see them, They are an army of generalists. It's part of why I have no interest in collecting them.
Fluff has no place in balanced rules at the best of times but even if it did a citizen of the IoM may see a marine as a god of war but to a Nid he's a chewier breakfast and to an Eldar he's a brawnier, semi-evolved roided up ape.

"Tactical" marines and "Tactical" Terminators are designed around being active in every phase of the game. They shoot decently, but not with the punch of shooty specialists, they melee solidly, but not with the punch of assault specialists. If you are looking at having an army of specialists I would suggest you rethink your faction choice because you are trying to make them something they aren't. That is the Eldar design philosophy.

At S4 with an AP above 2 it takes 12 *hits* to pierce TDA or 9 double tapping BS4 bolters, that's 126pts of marines, so the problem is not basic weapon fire. Hell, 30 Ork Shoota boyz going full dakka (180pts) will only kill 1 and a half.
Special weapons are now easier than ever to remove thanks to precision shots, wound allocation and barrage sniping but yes they can kill you, marines can die, if one side sustains virtually no casualties then it was a terrible game.

There are 2 races that specialize in killing elites (and the Tau aren't that great at it, it's generally overcharged Riptide blasts that pierce PA and better) currently enjoying their heyday with 3 of the *horde* races, Nids, Orks and IG, currently waiting for their update that will potentially makes AP2 less valuable that weight of fire. Add in the fact the competitive microcosm of small elite armies that play fast is hardly something that should be held up as the source of balance calculations and terminators are by and large fine.

Now I certainly wouldn't mind them gaining access to 2 specials per 5, they are elites after all and Sternguard get the same ratio I believe, but all this talk of 30pt, T5/6, 4+ FNP and the like is madness in my opinion. A 2+ save is a very polarizing thing, if you have AP2 brought to bear and can bring them down to a 5++/3++ it's fine but if all you can fire at them is AP3+ then they will shrug off vast numbers of hits even assuming how far a little luck can take you if all you need is a 2+.

It's not madness because that's how potent Eldar/Tau are. Weight of fire is usually how terminators die in my experience anyway. If you think terminators are "fine" then you can get in line with the rest of the crazies. Even my BA laugh at terminators lack of efficacy. 2+ does not shrug off the vast numbers of hits you think it does when someone only needs 3 W to cripple the unit. One need AMAZING luck to pull off what you describe.

I expect things to die in this game. You think most marine players are that stupid? No, it's that we're dying trivially to the hands of Xenos now; getting drowned in buckets of shots that we can't shoot back due to lack of numbers and overcosted Imperial weapons.

Also, you want to talk madness? No meq list has access to the fabled 2+ rerollable or 2++ rerollable. So in that light, most of these proposals to terminators are not nuts at all, because everything proposed in here is still vastly inferior to *what the Xenos already have*.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Models in terminator Armour can choose to double tap their storm bolter, or fire it as normal with sternguard ammo, models in terminator Armour have FNP, models in terminator Armour are immune to interceptor shots and lastly, a terminator squad may choose one turn per game to re-roll failed saves (must be declared at the start of an opponents turn).

I'd also add preferred enemy 'monstrous creatures/super heavies/gargantuan creatures' as it's fluffy more than anything along with my 1 turn unwieldy weapons strike at initiative rule.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Models in terminator Armour can choose to double tap their storm bolter, or fire it as normal with sternguard ammo, models in terminator Armour have FNP, models in terminator Armour are immune to interceptor shots and lastly, a terminator squad may choose one turn per game to re-roll failed saves (must be declared at the start of an opponents turn).

I'd also add preferred enemy 'monstrous creatures/super heavies/gargantuan creatures' as it's fluffy more than anything along with my 1 turn unwieldy weapons strike at initiative rule.

I think monster and tank hunters would be suitable rules for those but I would make them optional upgrades for obvious reasons (we dont need to be wasting even more points on things they may never use now do we?)

i think they are mostly fine as they are. The only things I would change are
1. to give them the option to combi weapon thier storm bolters
2. re-allow mixing of types. "shooty/close combat
3. maybe add in a new type. e allowed to take camo and have 2 special weapons (cyclone/assault cannon/heavy flamer. Dont know how this would work, but I think may be worth a try.

Said it before. 2w + eternal warrior. Offense is fine.

Pancakey wrote:
Said it before. 2w + eternal warrior. Offense is fine.

Just amke them W2, EW is a bit much.

Pancakey wrote:
Said it before. 2w + eternal warrior. Offense is fine.

Their offense is arguably their biggest flaw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EVIL INC wrote:
i think they are mostly fine as they are. The only things I would change are
1. to give them the option to combi weapon thier storm bolters
2. re-allow mixing of types. "shooty/close combat
3. maybe add in a new type. e allowed to take camo and have 2 special weapons (cyclone/assault cannon/heavy flamer. Dont know how this would work, but I think may be worth a try.

They are not fine at all. Even with those changes, I'd still laugh at them.

I liked that idea that Unweildy weapons can strike at initiative if the model is Relentless.

To Chaos Marines I'd like to see proper cult terminators. Plague Terminators etc.